How much can Goku lift?

[rereboy]

And lol what does a gag cartoon prove?

Exactly

Dragon ball is not exactly a gag cartoon. It just has a few gag moments and everybody ignores those. Your comparison is flawed.

[Mr.Judge]

I don't think Goku actually lifts all that much. At least compared to his destructive power.
I also don't think they have physical attacks any where near as powerful as their energy blasts. People say that their punches are capable of destroying planets but I don't think so, up until BOG they never really did that (and I think the planet is just different since its in another dimension). I think they are like mages in a D&D style game, where they can do more damage with energy attacks and also withstand more from energy attacks.

I never said the number made sense but that's the number that was given.

Krillin trained with a 40kg shell as a kid then grew stronger by the time he was a teenager but couldn't believe the weight of Goku's boots which weighed 18kg each and said he was amazed Goku could even move with them on.

Those are the number presented by Akira Toriyama, but the feats prove otherwise. this discussion is had on the Physics of DB thread which concluded that Akira Toriyama knowledge about weights is definitely not upto par with western comics writer.

Who says western writers know or care about weights and physics? Sure they throw a bunch of physic sounding stuff in at times but a lot of times it doesn't make sense or isn't consistent either. Like my favorite example of them saying the flash evacuated a city by moving just under the speed of light. But doing what they described, he would have to have been doing well over ~8,000,000,000,000x the speed of light.

Relative physics and also Speed force.when Flash enters speed force he has basically slow downed time that it appears that everything has come to a halt.that speed feat is basically the extension of speed force.
Dc has created the concept of speed force. Flash's super speed are dependent on and draw the powers from Speed force. Anyone who has access to speed force is capable of these feats. if Batman has full-time access to it like Flash , he would make a mockery out of Flash.
here is quote from Wikipedia related to Marvel/DC crossover.

Spoiler:

Speed Force only exists in the DC Multiverse; when Wally traveled to the Marvel Universe in JLA/Avengers, he was powerless in the other world, requiring Steel to create a 'battery pack' that allowed Wally to absorb Speed Force energy in the DC Universe to give him a supply that he could use in the other world.

Spoiler:

What you presented was Fallacy: Guilt by Association without clearly understanding the difference between the character you posted the pic of and the character we are debating in this thread as if you assumed Goku is a gag character like Coyote and made the association in a hurry.

Just because Arale belongs to a gag manga doesn't mean her feats are discarded. the above character of Coyote you posted is still considered viable in the realm of toon-force similar to Bugs Bunny and Droopy.

But DB clearly distinguishes gag feats from legit feats. Goku is not a toon force type character like Wile E. Coyote otherwise Freeza VS Goku would be a gag fight like Wile E. Coyote VS Road Runner encounters because of the association you made above by posting that pic.

if tomorrow Akira Toriyama shows Arale cant lift 1 ton, the new feat would still be discarded because it would be inconsistent with what the character Arale can perform and also due to the fact that the numbers in relation to weight are just place-holders in his manga without any relation to the actual strength behind those characters.

I have presented arguments in the "Physics of DB". here is the copy-paste part of it.

What DB characters performs(examples I cited in previous post) come under the term
A) Explosive Strength (Sprint/Running,Jumping upto clouds,Mercenary Tao Pai Pai throwing Pillar and leaping to board it),

B) Static Strength (Son-Goku,Kuririn moving a huge Boulder),

C) Dynamic Strength (weight training over long duration).

Goku can lift a car in chapter 1 but has trouble lifting 20 kg. Does the car weigh less than 20kg or did the gravity increase by 50 times when he could not lift 20 kg. When it comes to numbers like "How much weight", Akira Toriyama fails to do justice to the strength of these characters by throwing some random weight around. the only conclusion that we can draw from numbers which contradict on-panel feats is that , his relative knowledge in relation to weight is not upto par compared to more western writers.

So how much Goku can lift is unknown but Akira Toriyama has made the concept of Ki- augmentation in the DB manga very clear.

[Kamiccolo9]

the only conclusion that we can draw from numbers which contradict on-panel feats is that , his relative knowledge in relation to weight is not upto par compared to more western writers.

So how much Goku can lift is unknown but Akira Toriyama has made the concept of Ki- augmentation in the DB manga very clear.

I agree. So why are we using calculations that the author obviously didn't consider when using these characters to try to pinpoint how strong they are when the feats are contradictory?

The only real answer to this question is "he's strong enough to not-quite move around in the air while wearing 40 tons worth of weights in base."

The Coyote thing wasn't a comparison between Looney Toons and Dragon Ball, it was calling out the utter ridiculousness of trying to come up with precise calculations by looking at what was drawn by the artist who cared nothing about whether or not the physical strength shown here was consistent with how it would be in real life.

[Mr.Judge]

the only conclusion that we can draw from numbers which contradict on-panel feats is that , his relative knowledge in relation to weight is not upto par compared to more western writers.

So how much Goku can lift is unknown but Akira Toriyama has made the concept of Ki- augmentation in the DB manga very clear.

I agree. So why are we using calculations that the author obviously didn't consider when using these characters to try to pinpoint how strong they are when the feats are contradictory?

The only real answer to this question is "he's strong enough to not-quite move around in the air while wearing 40 tons worth of weights in base."

The Coyote thing wasn't a comparison between Looney Toons and Dragon Ball, it was calling out the utter ridiculousness of trying to come up with precise calculations by looking at what was drawn by the artist who cared nothing about whether or not the physical strength shown here was consistent with how it would be in real life.

Goku and Kuririn as kid trained with 40kg shell but Kuririn cannot lift 15-20 kg boots in 23rd Budokai. the numbers are just place holders. Goku as kid has shown feats that make the 40 tons numbers apparently inconsistent.

I don't find anything wrong or ridiculous about it when the variables are known so calculating such feats is quite fine imo.

[Kamiccolo9]

the only conclusion that we can draw from numbers which contradict on-panel feats is that , his relative knowledge in relation to weight is not upto par compared to more western writers.

So how much Goku can lift is unknown but Akira Toriyama has made the concept of Ki- augmentation in the DB manga very clear.

I agree. So why are we using calculations that the author obviously didn't consider when using these characters to try to pinpoint how strong they are when the feats are contradictory?

The only real answer to this question is "he's strong enough to not-quite move around in the air while wearing 40 tons worth of weights in base."

The Coyote thing wasn't a comparison between Looney Toons and Dragon Ball, it was calling out the utter ridiculousness of trying to come up with precise calculations by looking at what was drawn by the artist who cared nothing about whether or not the physical strength shown here was consistent with how it would be in real life.

Goku and Kuririn as kid trained with 40kg shell but Kuririn cannot lift 15-20 kg boots in 23rd Budokai. the numbers are just place holders. Goku as kid has shown feats that make the 40 tons numbers apparently inconsistent.

I don't find anything wrong or ridiculous about it when the variables are known so calculating such feats is quite fine imo.

I get that. I was referring to when we don't have the variables, and are forced to compare them to real life, like the Tao throwing a pillar thing. Or Goku pushing that big rock. Trying to say that "that was obviously a one ton pillar because in real life, if you compare the character's size to the........" is pointless because Toriyama obviously didn't do that. Same with the rock that Goku and Krillin pushed. It wasn't a "40 ton rock because it was most likely made of basalt, and it looks like this rock that I found on Google which weighs....,"...it was just a big rock.

And, as you said, the numbers for the weights are inconsistent anyway. It makes more sense to me to go with whatever the most recent definable feat (which would be Goku struggling in base with 40 tons in the air) as how strong the author intends him to be.

[rereboy]

The Coyote thing wasn't a comparison between Looney Toons and Dragon Ball, it was calling out the utter ridiculousness of trying to come up with precise calculations by looking at what was drawn by the artist who cared nothing about whether or not the physical strength shown here was consistent with how it would be in real life.

Your point is still flawed because you ignored the nature of the image you posted. An humanoid and sentient coyote can be strong enough to lift a rock that weighs tons in a reasonably consistent fashion in a work of fiction, like characters in Dragon Ball and in thousands of comics/manga do, without it being a gag.

You might as well have used a picture of The Incredible Hulk lifting a several ton rock if your point was not the gag nature.

People trying to determine exact values from the art and other stuff, are just using what they have available to try and reach conclusions about how thing stack up in that universe. The only thing wrong with that is when that people forget that works of fictions are not perfect, they have flaws and as such nothing will be 100% consistent, but, despite this, they still "sell" their interpretation as fact, even when its based on the flimsiest of indications.

[Kamiccolo9]

The Coyote thing wasn't a comparison between Looney Toons and Dragon Ball, it was calling out the utter ridiculousness of trying to come up with precise calculations by looking at what was drawn by the artist who cared nothing about whether or not the physical strength shown here was consistent with how it would be in real life.

Your point is still flawed because an humanoid and sentient coyote can be strong enough to lift a rock that weighs tons in a reasonably consistent fashion in a work of fiction, like characters in Dragon Ball and in thousands of comics/manga do, without it being a gag.

You might as well have used a picture of The Incredible Hulk lifting a several ton rock if your point was not the gag nature.

I picked the coyote because, like in Dragon Ball most of the time, there was no attempt to quantify the strength of the character or the weight of the object being moved. It was just a strong guy moving a big rock without their being anything more to it.

Marvel actually gives statistics for their characters. We know that the Hulk can lift thousands of tons because 1. We've seen him do it, and 2. they tell us how much he was lifting. They put out handbooks every few years full of statistics telling how strong, fast, smart, skilled, durable, etc, the characters are. Dragon Ball doesn't do that. Any attempt to quantify their strength in real-world measurements ends up being guesswork after they stop telling us how much their clothes weigh, and forces you to make tons of assumptions, and falls apart when you realize the author didn't give a shit.

Plus the Coyote is funnier than the Hulk.

[rereboy]

I picked the coyote because, like in Dragon Ball most of the time, there was no attempt to quantify the strength of the character or the weight of the object being moved. It was just a strong guy moving a big rock without their being anything more to it.

Marvel actually gives statistics for their characters. We know that the Hulk can lift thousands of tons because 1. We've seen him do it, and 2. they tell us how much he was lifting. They put out handbooks every few years full of statistics telling how strong, fast, smart, skilled, durable, etc, the characters are. Dragon Ball doesn't do that. Any attempt to quantify their strength in real-world measurements ends up being guesswork after they stop telling us how much their clothes weigh, and forces you to make tons of assumptions, and falls apart when you realize the author didn't give a shit.

Plus the Coyote is funnier than the Hulk.

I'm just saying that you focused on the wrong thing. Marvel and DC just make more of an conscious effort to have things reasonably consistent and explained than Dragon Ball, but they basic nature is not different. Dragon Ball has gag moments and situations but its not a gag manga, and its basic nature is akin to that of the kind of comics marvel and dc produce.

[Kamiccolo9]

I picked the coyote because, like in Dragon Ball most of the time, there was no attempt to quantify the strength of the character or the weight of the object being moved. It was just a strong guy moving a big rock without their being anything more to it.

Marvel actually gives statistics for their characters. We know that the Hulk can lift thousands of tons because 1. We've seen him do it, and 2. they tell us how much he was lifting. They put out handbooks every few years full of statistics telling how strong, fast, smart, skilled, durable, etc, the characters are. Dragon Ball doesn't do that. Any attempt to quantify their strength in real-world measurements ends up being guesswork after they stop telling us how much their clothes weigh, and forces you to make tons of assumptions, and falls apart when you realize the author didn't give a shit.

Plus the Coyote is funnier than the Hulk.

I'm just saying that you focused on the wrong thing. Marvel and DC just make more of an conscious effort to have things reasonably consistent and explained than Dragon Ball, but they basic nature is not different. Dragon Ball has gag moments and situations but its not a gag manga, and its basic nature is akin to that of the kind of comics marvel and dc produce.

I can agree with that. However, like you said, it doesn't try nearly as hard to make an effort to stay consistent like Marvel and DC. Dragon Ball tends to go with a "strong enough" outlook for the question posed in this topic, while Marvel and DC would tend to give more concrete answers. That's why I find this whole thing pointless. If Toriyama wanted to show Goku moving planets or lifting continents, then he could. But he hasn't. And we don't have any real, concrete evidence about Goku's strength anyway, because Toriyama never considered it relevant enough to devote time to it after the initial few arcs.

[Tsufuru]

And lol what does a gag cartoon prove?

Exactly

are you implying all of db was a gag manga?

Lol it stopped being a gag manga after like the first budokai.

[Hitiro]

I never said my opinion must be a fact.

Well in your reply to Rocketman on the previous page, you wrote: "I keep with the fact that Heaven has more gravity than Earth."
That's why I pointed it out to you on the previous page.

Sorry, that was a misuse of words. Heaven is a great deal larger than Earth to be able to house martial artists and heroes from all over the Universe as well as souls. So using that Heaven should have more gravity than Earth, assuming it has a similar density. Even if it doesn't have a similar density the gravity is still should be quite a bit bigger than Earths.

[xmysticgohanx]

I get that. I was referring to when we don't have the variables, and are forced to compare them to real life, like the Tao throwing a pillar thing.

Just remember that, that 1 million pound lifting strength feat also = building level destruction. That's pretty consistent with the power at that point of time. I know you were joking but the coyote feat would be nowhere close to what you said.

It's the same thing as this hypothetical situation: let's say the coyote's official height is 2 ft; if the rock was a square and the same height as the coyote, the rock would be 8 feet cubed. It doesn't matter if the creator wasn't thinking that at the time if it's non contradictory especially if said creator is as forgetful as Toriyama.

[Kamiccolo9]

I get that. I was referring to when we don't have the variables, and are forced to compare them to real life, like the Tao throwing a pillar thing.

Just remember that, that 1 million pound lifting strength feat also = building level destruction. That's pretty consistent with the power at that point of time. I know you were joking but the coyote feat would be nowhere close to what you said.

It's the same thing as this hypothetical situation: let's say the coyote's official height is 2 ft; if the rock was a square and the same height as the coyote, the rock would be 8 feet cubed. It doesn't matter if the creator wasn't thinking that at the time if it's non contradictory especially if said creator is as forgetful as Toriyama.

It's not consistent at all. If he's capable of throwing around things that weigh a ton at mach speed, then why is everyone all shocked and surprised that Goku can move around in boots that weigh 20kg at the 23rd Budokai? That's just a bit over 44 lbs. If these guys can casually throw around stuff that weighs tons, then how does a combined weight of about 220 lbs manage to slow Goku, who totally, in every way, outclasses RRA Tao? Dragon Ball has never been consistent with strength feats, and it's pointless to try and make it so.

Honestly, the only way to make it work is to just take the actual weights given to us in the series. As in, whenever Toriyama has a character say "this____weighs x." And then everything makes much more sense. Goku's not quite lifting 10 tons in the Buu Arc makes a lot more sense when considering he was training in 220 lbs at the budokai. Instead of going with made up numbers that don't mean jack in a fictional setting, use the numbers that the author actually gives you.

[mmg86]

I get that. I was referring to when we don't have the variables, and are forced to compare them to real life, like the Tao throwing a pillar thing.

Just remember that, that 1 million pound lifting strength feat also = building level destruction. That's pretty consistent with the power at that point of time. I know you were joking but the coyote feat would be nowhere close to what you said.

It's the same thing as this hypothetical situation: let's say the coyote's official height is 2 ft; if the rock was a square and the same height as the coyote, the rock would be 8 feet cubed. It doesn't matter if the creator wasn't thinking that at the time if it's non contradictory especially if said creator is as forgetful as Toriyama.

It's not consistent at all. If he's capable of throwing around things that weigh a ton at mach speed, then why is everyone all shocked and surprised that Goku can move around in boots that weigh 20kg at the 23rd Budokai? That's just a bit over 44 lbs. If these guys can casually throw around stuff that weighs tons, then how does a combined weight of about 220 lbs manage to slow Goku, who totally, in every way, outclasses RRA Tao? Dragon Ball has never been consistent with strength feats, and it's pointless to try and make it so.

Honestly, the only way to make it work is to just take the actual weights given to us in the series. As in, whenever Toriyama has a character say "this____weighs x." And then everything makes much more sense. Goku's not quite lifting 10 tons in the Buu Arc makes a lot more sense when considering he was training in 220 lbs at the budokai. Instead of going with made up numbers that don't mean jack in a fictional setting, use the numbers that the author actually gives you.

Pretty much the same thing i always say in any discussion of this sort. Fanmade numbers can only be used when nothing contradicts them. If the manga itself has instances where such stuff is measured, all fan calcs fall apart. I hold that stance with every fiction, it doesnt matter how much higher or lower the "manga-given" stats are, they take precedence over whatever a fan thinks. The exception would be when those numbers contradict themselves, in that case we have to take the more recent example, i say. For example: in Saint Seiya, Seiya manages to land a blow during a 1/1000th second opening. A bit earlier, it was said that, moving at Mach 1, the Saints can throw 100 punches per second, so Seiya at this point should be Mach 10, right? Yet later in the manga, the introduction of characters that move at Mach 2 to 5 was a fairly big deal, Seiya got blitzed badly by one of them. What should we readers do in this case? Dismiss the older feat, because it contradicts the portrayal of these new characters! Thats what i think.

[The Monkey King]

Honestly, the only way to make it work is to just take the actual weights given to us in the series. As in, whenever Toriyama has a character say "this____weighs x." And then everything makes much more sense. Goku's not quite lifting 10 tons in the Buu Arc makes a lot more sense when considering he was training in 220 lbs at the budokai. Instead of going with made up numbers that don't mean jack in a fictional setting, use the numbers that the author actually gives you.

The only problem with that is that you'd have to scale down every feat to a ridiculous extent:

For example look at Freeza's feat:

Spoiler:

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P13.4-6
Goku: “I-I didn’t want to use this Genki-Dama. It will probably have too much force and squash the entire planet…But if I don’t defeat Freeza now, the universe itself will be in trouble…I don’t know if I’ll be able to pull this off right, but I’ve got to do it…You planets close to Namek! Give me just a little bit of your genki…!”

Goku feared the Spirit Bomb he used on Freeza would have planet crushing/squashing force.

Freeza's arms managed to withstand the force of Goku's planet crushing Spirit Bomb, yet Goku arms truggled with 10 tons.
So, 10 tons > Spirit Bomb > Planet?

Doesn't really work for me.

[Kamiccolo9]

Honestly, the only way to make it work is to just take the actual weights given to us in the series. As in, whenever Toriyama has a character say "this____weighs x." And then everything makes much more sense. Goku's not quite lifting 10 tons in the Buu Arc makes a lot more sense when considering he was training in 220 lbs at the budokai. Instead of going with made up numbers that don't mean jack in a fictional setting, use the numbers that the author actually gives you.

The only problem with that is that you'd have to scale down every feat to a ridiculous extent:

For example look at Freeza's feat:

Spoiler:

Chapter: 314 (DBZ 120), P13.4-6
Goku: “I-I didn’t want to use this Genki-Dama. It will probably have too much force and squash the entire planet…But if I don’t defeat Freeza now, the universe itself will be in trouble…I don’t know if I’ll be able to pull this off right, but I’ve got to do it…You planets close to Namek! Give me just a little bit of your genki…!”

Goku feared the Spirit Bomb he used on Freeza would have planet crushing/squashing force.

Freeza's arms managed to withstand the force of Goku's planet crushing Spirit Bomb, yet Goku arms truggled with 10 tons.
So, 10 tons > Spirit Bomb > Planet?

Doesn't really work for me.

That's hyperbole. If you'll notice, the Genki Dama didn't actually squash the planet.

Also, why would the Genki Dama have weight anyway? It seems clear to me that the "planet crushing force" that Goku is referring to is the explosion that occurs when it hits, which has nothing to do with strength feats.

Edit: In fact, looking back, I don't see how it can be construed as a strength feat anway. Freeza's pushing back at it, and accomplishing nothing. He's basically a guy on roller skates who's pushing his arms against a slowly moving car.

[The Monkey King]

That's hyperbole. If you'll notice, the Genki Dama didn't actually squash the planet.

That's only because Freeza was there to take the brunt of the force. Unless you think it was weaker than the attack 1st Form Freeza used to vaporize Planet Vegeta.

Also, why would the Genki Dama have weight anyway?

Ki blasts do have mass.
If it was weightless why was Freeza was stuggling against it? And how could ki blasts do things like this?:

Spoiler:

And that attack is an ant compared to the Spirit Bomb.

It seems clear to me that the "planet crushing force" that Goku is referring to is the explosion that occurs when it hits,

Every time a DB character reffers to explosions they use terms like 'blow away' or 'destroy' never 'squash'. How can an explosion squash anything anyway?

which has nothing to do with strength feats.

At anyrate it would be a durability feat which has a lot to do with character strength.

For example if Freeza treats being caught on an exploding planet as a mild inconvinience and survives one of his deathbed:

Spoiler:

Yet Goku's punches makes him cough up blood and collapse:

Spoiler:

What does this say about the strength of Goku's punches?

[Kamiccolo9]

It says that Toriyama didn't care about being consistent, and that trying to make everything fit is pointless. Which is why I go with the things I actually can quantify from the information that Toriyama gives me. All of the details you can find that you can extrapolate as strength feats mean nothing compared to the author flat-out showing and telling us that Goku cannot lift 40 tons at the end of the Buu Arc while flying in his base form, and his Super Saiyan form can lift that much while flying around.

That is a useable feat. Goku being able to move around in 220ish lbs of weight at the 23rd Budokai is a useable feat. Goku and Krillin being able to run around in those turtle shells (50kg, right?) is a useable feat.

All these others, as impressive as they may look, are not measurable feats. We don't know anything about them. Trying to use real-life science to measure them is futile, because, one, they were not meant to be looked into that deeply in the first place, and two, the author didn't care about making sure that all this stuff was consistent in the first place.

And yes, explosions can squash stuff. The pressure a of an explosion is sufficient to flatten the objects in its vicinity, assuming they aren't destroyed.

[The Monkey King]

Fair enough, I may not agree with your point of view Kamicollo but I understand where you're coming from.

So would you say this is a useable feat?:

Chapter: 21, P1.2
Context: Goku and Yamcha try to escape Pilaf's prison
Pilaf: “No matter how they struggle, it’s no use! The walls of the prison are made of 300-millimeter thick steel! The roof is super-strengthened glass! Not even a cannon can break it!”
Note: Goku and Yamcha can’t dent the prison walls, but Oozaru Goku smashes them.

Ōzaru Goku (PL 100)

With his battle power becoming ten times its usual, he can even pulverize a 30 cm-thick steel wall. He now has the destructive power of a battleship’s main gun.

And wouldn't Toriyama stating that the car Goku threw in the first chapter is a Renault 5 Turbo make it a useable feat as you can find out how much they weigh IRL

Renault 5 Turbo
First Appearance: chapter 1
Category: vehicle
Explanation: One of the cars which Bulma used in her search for the dragonballs. Knowing nothing about cars, Goku mistook it for a monster, and destroyed it by picking it up and sending it flying.
Special Characteristics: A real sports car produced by Renault, a French company famous for the F1. (Daizenshuu 4, p.129)

I liked this shape. I drew the car deformed, not exactly like the real thing, but even then it was pretty difficult. At that time I had a plastic model of this car, and it was very useful.

[Kamiccolo9]

No problem. Theories are great. I just don't like fan-calculated strength feats being thrown around as facts.

I'd say so, at least for Oozaru Goku. However, we don't really know how physical strength correlates with ki. I'd say that on Oozaru at 100 would hit much harder than an Earthling at 100, despite the equal power, due to sheer size and momentum, and, I'd guess, physical strength as well.

As for the other, I'm not sure if I'd use that. Toriyama says himself he drew it "not exactly like the real thing," so I'd just go with "strong enough to lift a car" and leave it vague like that.

Half the time, I'm tempted to not count the strength feats in the first few chapters anyway. They tend to be over the top pseudo-gags that aren't really consistent with the actual numbers that Toriyama starts giving us after the first arc.