Fusion needs to become obsolete.

[Kroni_Hunter]

Fusion is a technique that brought variety to the Dragon Ball universe. It doesn't make them look like pricks, it gives them character development in some ways. It's good that it's still around to make characters like Goten and Trunks somewhat relevant.

The problem with fusion is that it becomes an unwieldy plot device. It's good to have variety but not at the cost of tension or believability to the story. Think about it. Let's pretend fusion always existed. Raditz would have been killed easily by a yamcha/ten. Same with Nappa and Vegeta. Then on Namek Krillhan would take out the ginyu force and Gogeta would have wiped out Frieza. Do you see where I'm going with this? The fights are always a sure thing unless you make the villains insanely powerful. But at that point our main characters no longer matter and the show is about Gogeta, Gotenks, etc. Or they go the route of the characters refusing to fuse out of pride, despite their home and loved ones being in danger.

Adding an occasional creative villain here or there will not remedy the overall problem. At some point, the Z fighters need to face a more powerful opponent for the story to progress. When that time comes, they might as well fuse and make Gogeta the main character. It was an interesting concept but from a narrative standpoint it does not work for a story like this.

All they have to do is say SSGs can't fuse, and it can all just go away.

[Doctor.]

All they have to do is say SSGs can't fuse, and it can all just go away.

Fair enough.

I very much doubt they would do something like that, though. Little changes in already established information are nothing both Toei and Toriyama remember to inform the public about.

[Cetra]

Fusion, especially Ultimate Fusion through Yin-Yang Rival power does not look cheaper to me than

- Rage Boosts
- Goku training on his way to Namek and at least be way more of a threat for Frieza than Piccolo and Vegeta
- Magic Ritual Boosts (Elder Namekian, Old Kaioshin, Saiyajin God Ritual)
- heroes constantly coming back being even stronger just because they trained when the same dimensions before seemed to be impossible (SSJ2, SS3, SSJ4 even if that was not what was expected)
- heroes being able to pull of a good fight with attacks that are way too much for them but still they managae to handle it and actually are not close to dead after that (Kaioken, a technique that is way too powerful so it was no longer used, it being "even more dangerous" now is not even a good explanation because Goku all the time resisted, powered up, still resisted and still was not dead afterwards)

Actually I think the whole harmony fusion is the best idea of making a strong warrior when I don't count the old-fashioned original Super-Saiyajin transformations or the Kaioken. The Super Saiyajin God Ritual is also okay this way and the Genkidama in terms of working together. But generally they are all "cheap" and effective methods to increase power. If it is good written I don't mind, though.

Akira Toriyama now created multiple fusion types of the Metamoran's. That is interesting actually, if you ask me. Maybe we will see more of that.

[Doctor.]

I would really love to see more of those types of fusion. Being in a new movie, a special, or even in a new databook or interview. It's something that could be explored further, although I think they'll most likely won't appear.

Seeing as how the normal fusion grants power boosts, what could the other types be?

[Rocketman]

I honestly don't understand your position. How can "you can get a mega powerup if you do a complex and easily-interruptible dance with a specific other person" be worse than "you get god-like power forevermore with no effort or exertion" or "go train offscreen and magically get stronger".

[Kroni_Hunter]

I honestly don't understand your position. How can "you can get a mega powerup if you do a complex and easily-interruptible dance with a specific other person" be worse than "you get god-like power forevermore with no effort or exertion" or "go train offscreen and magically get stronger".

The SSG ritual is kind of stupid, but its established in the movie and there's really nothing we can do about it. Goku is now stronger than any previous Z character, and that's not going to be undone.

It's not a question of what is worse. SSG was a one time plot device, fusion is still an easy solution to any problem at any time. We've already seen the fusion dance being part of the strategy in GT in the final battle. There is nothing thematically fresh that the concept can provide, just like the spirit bomb. That's the distinction.

[xmysticgohanx]

I honestly don't understand your position. How can "you can get a mega powerup if you do a complex and easily-interruptible dance with a specific other person" be worse than "you get god-like power forevermore with no effort or exertion" or "go train offscreen and magically get stronger".

Because no one wants to see Gogeta win every fight. What's cooler SSJ Goku beating Freeza or Gogeta beating Freeza? SSJ2 Gohan beating Cell or SSJ Gogeta beating Cell?

BTW Toriyama needs fusion to not work with god ki. SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (SSJ3 is 8x SSJ) so god Gogeta >>>>>>>>>...>>> Whis

[Saiga]

I also don't really follow the logic of "It's either way too much or not enough and then they're boned". Was the idea something along the lines of "If fusion can solve the situation, then they'll just do that, and if it can't they don't have any other answer" ? Because that argument makes more sense, and is true to some degree. Fused fighters do have a ridiculous power advantage over their components, so there's no reason not to try it against an enemy that poses a significant threat. But if the dance is disrupted, or they don't finish things before time is up, then they're really screwed.

That exact scenario though, made for GT's best battle. I'm not fond of the way Gogeta screwed up but the battle becoming one of Goku and Vegeta trying to fuse and Omega interrupted them was really good.

Of course, that's something that would get really old if repeated. And there's not much reason it wouldn't be repeated, as said, if it's a significant threat, they should try fusion. It's kind of like Super Saiyan in that way, in that there's not much reason to use the old forms (in this case, fighting individually) when you've got this super form that easily outweighs its drawbacks in pure power. But I get that people don't want to see Goku and Vegeta fusing every battle, and have Gogeta/Vegetto handle everything. It'd also get really old for them to have to be interrupted or defused every time they are to win without fusion. And simply choosing not to fuse would be just plain stupid (plus, it's already been done for the Pure Boo fight).

So Fusion does present a problem if you want to continue using the individual characters as fighters. The manga story ends with the earrings being crushed and Goku/Vegeta never attempting the dance method, so it'd be fairly easy to continue from there (they might end up incompatible with the dance method or something), BoG has them outright dismiss fusion but there's no telling if it'd be incompatible with God power, GT has Goku written out... all the stories already have openings to leave out fusion for Goku and Vegeta. Goten and Trunks, not so much, they'll probably never be properly developed as individuals.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

BTW Toriyama needs fusion to not work with god ki. SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku (SSJ3 is 8x SSJ) so god Gogeta >>>>>>>>>...>>> Whis

Even if that was the case, the much more powerful Potara would probably still be usable, since they were made for gods...

[Rocketman]

Because no one wants to see Gogeta win every fight.

It'd be better than MAOR GOKUUU by this point.

SSJ2 Gohan beating Cell or SSJ Gogeta beating Cell?

Gogeta.

[Vijay]

I think Fusion isn't bad addition to DBZ.

The Over-Powwering isnt with the show. Even if it does, its the fans who tend to exaggerate it beyond Manga/Anime.

Like a user posted, with Fusion:

1. You Fuse, Completely Over-Power the villain. Fight over

2. Fuse, still outmached by the villain, fight is over.

Few instances like Gogeta vs Janemba & Vegito vs Buuhan showed one-sided fight. Thats not the fault of Fusion.

Creators (either Toriyama or Film producers) can balance things out. Kinda like what Hunter Hunter does. Analyzed fights always impresses as it involved Brain & Brawn. DBZ does good balacing, but often neglects the former.

[ImmaDeker]

The problem with fusion is that it becomes an unwieldy plot device. It's good to have variety but not at the cost of tension or believability to the story.

You're already invested in a universe where death has no actual consequence, so it's not like fusion or any other random, new power up mode undercuts that.

[Kroni_Hunter]

The problem with fusion is that it becomes an unwieldy plot device. It's good to have variety but not at the cost of tension or believability to the story.

You're already invested in a universe where death has no actual consequence, so it's not like fusion or any other random, new power up mode undercuts that.

Death has consequence in the show, even though they can be restored to life multiple times. They could all die and unless there was a cosmic threat like Buu no one is going to wish them back. Remember Trunk's timeline?

[ImmaDeker]

Death has consequence in the show, even though they can be restored to life multiple times. They could all die and unless there was a cosmic threat like Buu no one is going to wish them back.

Those are fake stakes. Reversing mass death after every story arc so everything begins at the status quo is what everyone usually criticizes about old, done-in-one television (though I happen to like episodic television a lot) and is pretty at odds with serialization as a storytelling concept. Whether or not that's BAD is up for debate, but you don't seem to understand what I mean by "consequences." Each arc can cause mass destruction, cast genocide, and all be restored at the end of the story so a new arc can begin from the same general status quo. That is the exact opposite of having consequences. Dragonball has the same tension as a season of Aqua Teen Hunger Force.

"They could all die, thus can't be wished back" is not really a good response because that is not going to happen. Even Goku dying at the end of the Cell arc doesn't really play into Buu in a way that suggests STAKES. A unique and interesting way of using a LACK of stakes, which I think makes up for it in that specific instance, but not STAKES.

Death does not have consequence in Dragonball. Therefore, why do power ups matter in perception of tension?

Remember Trunk's timeline?

Trunks's timeline is window dressing for the sake of giving a specific character a gimmick. And on a pure structural level, Trunks's goal is to save and protect the MAIN timeline and his timeline has no more bearing on tension than any other random factor. It's an isolated, static aspect of the story save for the denouement that allows him to kill his versions of the Androids...but it's not really showing the consequence of death if it's tying a bow on an alternate timeline that has no bearing on the core cast. Trunks's arc resolving is the anomaly, not the norm, and even then his status quo doesn't really change in a way that reverberates through later stories.

Again, this doesn't make the storytelling BAD, per se. But it's illusion of tension.

[Low Tone G]

People, it's even question that fusion was out-dated? I do not think that a metamorian fusion can work on Gods. And even if the potara fusion might work, it would cost too much because they most likely could not split any more due to Godly Ki. I do expect a SSJ-God Vegeta in the new movie, but I do not see that a SSJ-God Gogeta or Vegetto could occur, even if Goku or Vegeta will do a mention about a possibility of fusion.

[Saimaroimaru]

You know Akira did kinda balanced out fusion.

Gotenks - bogged down by his childish stupidity combined with the typical Saiyan arrogance.

Gogeta 1) SSJ1 Used in the movie as a last resort but got straight to the point and defeated the villain. Hasn't existed long enough to see his quirks.
2) SSJ4 Used in GT, SSJ4 form, He suffers from Saiyan arrogance. As you can see movie Gogeta and anime Gogeta are different people personality wise.

Vegito - Similar to SSJ1 Gogeta. Plays around only when there is a reason to.(In this case get Buu to absorb him so he can free his half sons and former rival). His draw back is that his fusion is permanent and after Buu's insides undid the fusion because Buu, Goku and Vegeta decide to never recreate Vegito ever again, manga, movie, and anime wise.

Kibto Kai - Still weak and useless. More of a boost to Supreme Kai's magical abilities.

Going further, Majuub - becomes useless during his debut fight. Was the SSJ4 transformation that defeated Baby.

The only long term useful fusions were either movie only, or had the draw back of being permanent and therefore no longer used when said fusees were given a second chance.

Aside from the Janemba movie, fusion has yet to defeat the main villain.

It is already obsolete and any SSJ god fusions will come from video games and fanfiction.

[Hitiro]

I would say that unless they are able to pop up more Saiyan babies then fusion is actually obsolete and useless. If the Saiyans fuse they lose the number of Saiyans required to perform the SSJGod ritual which is much more useful and powerful than fusion. I know they probably won't be relying on it any more. But the point is if they do need that energy it is there in the form of the SSJGod ritual. I don't think Goku kept all of the power from SSJGod. Didn't Beerus say something like "Your power didn't go down that much when you lost the form." Hinting Goku did still lose some of the energy from the transformation. So to regain that energy he can just re-Godify? The SSJGod ritual also doesn't suffer from the time constraints of you have 30 mins(5 mins with SSJ3) and then you need to wait an hour before you can fuse again. If Goku or anybody else using SSJGod loses energy during the fight they probably can just re-Godify and regain all that power back?

[Kroni_Hunter]

Remember Trunk's timeline?

Trunks's timeline is window dressing for the sake of giving a specific character a gimmick. And on a pure structural level, Trunks's goal is to save and protect the MAIN timeline and his timeline has no more bearing on tension than any other random factor. It's an isolated, static aspect of the story save for the denouement that allows him to kill his versions of the Androids...but it's not really showing the consequence of death if it's tying a bow on an alternate timeline that has no bearing on the core cast. Trunks's arc resolving is the anomaly, not the norm, and even then his status quo doesn't really change in a way that reverberates through later stories.

Again, this doesn't make the storytelling BAD, per se. But it's illusion of tension.

You can't just dismiss Trunk's story because it occurred in a different timeline. That part of the story showed that there are consequences in Dragonball. They were all killed and no one was able to wish them back. Stakes do exist in Dragonball because it is a zero-sum game. The heroes either win and get their happy ending or everyone dies. I doubt the series would ever go that direction because it would end the story and quite frankly be kind of a bummer, but the precedent established in the story shows that it is a real possibility in the eyes of the characters and in terms of in-universe logical development.

[ImmaDeker]

You mean they were all killed and couldn't be wished back in a timeline considered so separate from the main timeline it has no bearing on the cast.

Trunks coming from a dead future is like Goku coming from a dead planet: it's mass genocide meant to set the tone for a story, not as the pay off of stakes for a story. It's not a possibility and it's not structured like a possibility, especially because we're IMMEDIATELY shown via Trunks's reaction to 19 and 20 that this timeline is vastly different to his.

He has a unique circumstance not reflected in the main plot and is his backstory, but nothing about it exists as a meaningful seed to generate stakes any more than a random threat on Earth that happens every week.

[Kroni_Hunter]

You mean they were all killed and couldn't be wished back in a timeline considered so separate from the main timeline it has no bearing on the cast.

Trunks coming from a dead future is like Goku coming from a dead planet: it's mass genocide meant to set the tone for a story, not as the pay off of stakes for a story. It's not a possibility and it's not structured like a possibility, especially because we're IMMEDIATELY shown via Trunks's reaction to 19 and 20 that this timeline is vastly different to his.

He has a unique circumstance not reflected in the main plot and is his backstory, but nothing about it exists as a meaningful seed to generate stakes any more than a random threat on Earth that happens every week.

Why does it matter if their timeline is different from Trunks' timeline? You completely missed the point. I never said Trunk's story was the ONLY way for the Z fighters to lose. It's just one of many possibilities that exist. The fact that there is a version of their future where they all die to me is more than enough evidence to say that the same thing could happen in the main timeline. You can't really argue with that, I don't care if Android 19 or 20 are different Androids. If they were as strong or stronger than 17 and 18 the same thing would have happened. Saying "nothing about it exists as a meaningful seed to generate stakes" is ridiculous. Why do you think AT created that apocalyptic future in the first place? It was to create stakes, and show what the main timeline had to lose.