Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[coola]

He still have chance to win, if he go after boss.

[xJeffx]

That it for Vegeta. He's about to lose because he underestimated his opponent and toyed with him, thinking he wasn't much of a threat. Vegeta's pride and arrogance lead to his own downfall.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

Could Raichi be disqualified because technically he hasn't touched the ring yet?

That or Vegeta might pull a Super Saiyan 3 or something. I just can't see him losing this.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

In the end all I want is for Raichi to lose to a saiyan.

[SilverArmada]

So, you are criticizing it because a technological cutting attack invented by the DBM's authors has a greater percentage of decay in its effectiveness after cutting a powerful target like Pan than you would give it if you were the author? That is just not being fair.

The criticism about the effectiveness of god's blade/that cutting attack isn't coming out of thin air. RandomGuy specifically says that it's hard to believe that an attack would be hindered cutting through Pan compared to cutting through Uub with no issue. He isn't being "unfair," his criticism is based on what we've seen of the attack so far in DBM. It's a question of whether or not the attack is consistent with itself and how it is portrayed by those same DBM authors in two different scenarios. I personally find it hard to believe that it slices through Pan but somehow Vegeta survives because "cutting through two Super Saiyans" is somehow difficult? It doesn't seem consistent with what we have seen of that attack so far.

Also, people can criticize things without you whiteknighting for DBM like it's your second job.

I disagree about it being fair and I never said that it appears out of thin air. I can see his logic in that particular point, but since its an alien technological attack, not a Ki based one, which was made up entirely by the authors, I don't see how exactly its fair to criticize just how much effectiveness the authors think it would it lose after cutting down a SSJ1, even if it can cut down a SSJ3 if its not dulled first.

Basically, its criticizing a rule that the authors chose of how something that its entirely made up by the authors works, that uses a completely different system of power to operate besides Ki also made up by the authors, and that doesn't exist in the manga.

Okay, stop right there. There is the problem - you think it's "unfair" to criticize certain parts of DBM, specifically original ideas inserted by the authors. I call BS on this statement as a whole. Why should we, as consumers of the product that is DBM, not be permitted to criticize certain parts of what is presented? Just because it's an original idea of the authors? Why is that "unfair?" How is that different than any criticism of the Dragonball manga? Since all of that is Akira Toriyama's original idea, shouldn't that also be "unfair" to criticize? If you want to debate people's criticism of certain aspects of DBM, have at it. But do not tell other people that they are being "unfair" by criticizing something - they have just as much of a right to their opinion on DBM as you do to yours.

As to the actual problem we were discussing - the god's blade attack needs to be consistent with both itself and the larger Dragonball universe. Now the authors are welcome to introduce things that have never been seen in Dragonball before (I like this aspect of DBM and I also do the same thing in my own DB fanfic), but it is on them to make it fit. I don't want to debate the issue with you because you think people should shut up when you call their criticism unfair - "I didn't mention this before because not really being a fair criticism should suffice" - or basically whenever you dislike their criticism, whether it has a logically consistent basis or not. But following that:

Finally, about me "whiteknighting", its not my fault that most of the replies in this topic are just criticisms and negative comments and I will comment on them whenever I think that they are exaggerated, illogical or unfair. Sorry if that bothers you or if it makes me "uncool" for going against the "tide" due to having my own opinion about things but, since I always provide substantial and logical arguments for my comments (even if you might not agree with them), I don't really care what you think about that.

Okay, yes - you can comment on anyone else's comment all you want. But it's not okay to try and shout down people as being "unfair" for their opinions. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, even if you don't like that opinion and you think it's stupid. You can even criticize someone else's opinion! But since you say, "I always provide substantial and logical arguments for my comments," then you shouldn't even bother with whether someone's criticism is "fair" or not. Also, since you want to be the arbiter of what's fair/unfair to criticize about DBM, can I get a list of those items so I know what I'm approved to be critical of?

PS - proving that someone's criticism of DBM is "wrong" won't make that person suddenly like DBM any more than they did when they posted their criticism, so... I don't understand your need to do that with anyone who comments negatively about any part of DBM.

[rereboy]

Okay, stop right there. There is the problem - you think it's "unfair" to criticize certain parts of DBM, specifically original ideas inserted by the authors. I call BS on this statement as a whole. Why should we, as consumers of the product that is DBM, not be permitted to criticize certain parts of what is presented? Just because it's an original idea of the authors? Why is that "unfair?" How is that different than any criticism of the Dragonball manga? Since all of that is Akira Toriyama's original idea, shouldn't that also be "unfair" to criticize? If you want to debate people's criticism of certain aspects of DBM, have at it. But do not tell other people that they are being "unfair" by criticizing something - they have just as much of a right to their opinion on DBM as you do to yours.

As to the actual problem we were discussing - the god's blade attack needs to be consistent with both itself and the larger Dragonball universe. Now the authors are welcome to introduce things that have never been seen in Dragonball before (I like this aspect of DBM and I also do the same thing in my own DB fanfic), but it is on them to make it fit. I don't want to debate the issue with you because you think people should shut up when you call their criticism unfair - "I didn't mention this before because not really being a fair criticism should suffice" - or basically whenever you dislike their criticism, whether it has a logically consistent basis or not. But following that:

He wasn't criticizing the idea itself (the attack becoming less effective after cutting one adversary). He was criticizing the specific amount of effectiveness lost by that attack after cutting a SSj1. And since its not a Ki attack but a alien technological one totally invented by the authors, he has no frame of reference in the entire franchise for how that alien technological attack works to actually form an informed idea of how much effective cutting power the attack should actually lose and thus he has only his own completely personal opinion on how much it should lose.

I agree with what you are saying if he was actually criticizing the idea itself, whether I ended up agreeing with his criticism and his arguments or not, but he's merely criticizing the specific amount of effectiveness lost, which doesn't seem a fair criticism to me given the fact that he has no frame of reference for that opinion.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with the authors saying that this attack, due to how it works, loses, for example, more than 90% of its effectiveness after cutting down an opponent that is at least as strong as a SSJ1 because its rate of degradation after 40 cms increases exponentially in proportion to the toughness of what it cuts, but at 100% effectiveness it can cut even someone at SSj3 level. This seems fair because its an attack and a weapon totally invented by them that doesn't even work with Ki and its means of operating are completely unknown to us. Would I do it exactly like that if I were them? I don't know, maybe not. But since its fair, do I think its fair to criticize it and claim that I "don't buy" that it works like that? No, not at all. I don't think that that's a fair criticism at all.

Okay, yes - you can comment on anyone else's comment all you want. But it's not okay to try and shout down people as being "unfair" for their opinions. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, even if you don't like that opinion and you think it's stupid. You can even criticize someone else's opinion! But since you say, "I always provide substantial and logical arguments for my comments," then you shouldn't even bother with whether someone's criticism is "fair" or not. Also, since you want to be the arbiter of what's fair/unfair to criticize about DBM, can I get a list of those items so I know what I'm approved to be critical of?

PS - proving that someone's criticism of DBM is "wrong" won't make that person suddenly like DBM any more than they did when they posted their criticism, so... I don't understand your need to do that with anyone who comments negatively about any part of DBM.

Maybe you don't care either way if things are treated fairly and justly, but I for one actually do like when people treat things fairly and justly. Hence, when I think a comment is criticizing unfairly, illogically, with exaggeration, or with a negative bias, I will often respond and point out with logical arguments why I think its illogical, unfair or exaggerated.

No one has to agree with me, nor do I even wish for that if they don't truly think that way. At most, I might get a little frustrated when someone dismisses my arguments and insists on arguments that don't make a lick of sense to me, but that's all.

I don't care if people like DBM or not, they can like whatever they like, I just prefer to see actual fair criticism with actual perspective and logic and when I don't see it, I try to point out some perspective and provide logical arguments and I criticize when I feel that there's too much undeserving negative bias in the comments.

Like I said, its not my fault that so many of the comments here are criticisms that I don't agree with. Like I pointed several times before in this topic, if we check other topics in this section about other fan mangas and you will notice that, even though most agree that most of those fan mangas are inferior to DBM, they hardly have any criticism or negative comment, while this topic has much of that. I have no idea why things are like that, but its certainly not my fault, I just comment according to my opinion when I see something that I don't think its fair or logical or that lacks perspective.

[SilverArmada]

I don't care if people like DBM or not, they can like whatever they like, I just prefer to see actual fair criticism with actual perspective and logic and when I don't see it, I try to point out some perspective and provide logical arguments and I criticize when I feel that there's too much undeserving negative bias in the comments.

Like I said, its not my fault that so many of the comments here are criticisms that I don't agree with. Like I pointed several times before in this topic, if we check other topics in this section about other fan mangas and you will notice that, even though most agree that most of those fan mangas are inferior to DBM, they hardly have any criticism or negative comment, while this topic has much of that. I have no idea why things are like that, but its certainly not my fault, I just comment according to my opinion when I see something that I don't think its fair or logical or that lacks perspective.

1. If you don't care if people like DBM or not, why do you feel a need to provide "perspective" to other people's opinions about it? You DO care, otherwise you wouldn't waste so much time on it.

2. Do not try to blame everyone else for your own actions. "its not my fault that so many of the comments here are criticisms that I don't agree with" <- YOU control your own actions, no one else. No, you can't control what other people post, but you control how you reply to that. You don't get to blame everyone else for you arguing with them whenever they post a dissenting opinion. Also, the reason DBM may get more criticism than other fan manga that you and others deem inferior - it has a larger audience than those other fan manga. This is very simple.

[Fionordequester]

Hmm...about this whole thing. I kind of see Armada's point, but, I can also heavily sympathize with Rereboy. I mean, Randomguy actually makes some good points (the whole "why did the blade cut through Uub and the Barrier so easily if even SS1 Pan was strong enough to soften it up" thing), but, the problem is he pushes his viewpoint so stinking hard and so stinking often that Rereboy and other supporters probably get sick of listening to it, meaning that they're not as open to what he has to say. In a way, it's almost seems like he's trying to force his opinion on them (although I'm sure that's not what his intentions are).

So, his overall criticisms are valid, but the presentation, I think, needs to be a bit smoother and more gradual if he wants to convince anyone. People aren't androids after all.

[Saiga]

I don't think it's at all fair to say just RandomGuy was doing it. He wasn't pushing it, he was replying to comments directed toward. He made so many posts because each was a reply to rereboy.

So if RandomGuy is pushing his opinion hard and often, so is rereboy, and just as much.

[dbzfan7]

I'm calling it. SSJ3. I'd be surprised if they just got rid of Vegeta here after the Gohan promise. Also it's good to have Asura back.

[rereboy]

1. If you don't care if people like DBM or not, why do you feel a need to provide "perspective" to other people's opinions about it? You DO care, otherwise you wouldn't waste so much time on it.

2. Do not try to blame everyone else for your own actions. "its not my fault that so many of the comments here are criticisms that I don't agree with" <- YOU control your own actions, no one else. No, you can't control what other people post, but you control how you reply to that. You don't get to blame everyone else for you arguing with them whenever they post a dissenting opinion. Also, the reason DBM may get more criticism than other fan manga that you and others deem inferior - it has a larger audience than those other fan manga. This is very simple.

1. Enjoying and liking people providing fair and logical comments and criticisms =/= wanting people to like DBM. I don't care if somebody comes and says "I don't like this fan manga, I don't really enjoy the story", but if somebody says something like "I don't like DBM, its a pile of garbage, worst fanmanga ever", then I do care because he was totally unfair and exaggerated in his comment and I will probably comment on it. I don't know if liking things to be fair and balanced is that weird to you, but to me that's the most natural thing in the world.

2. I'm merely trying to explain why I comment as often as I do, since you accused me of "whiteknighting". I do it because there's lots of comments that I think are unfair, illogical or exaggerated. That's all. I'm not trying to defend DBM for the sake of defending and I've criticized DBM several times before when I felt they did something wrong. So, please, don't try to twist this into me criticizing others just because they have a different opinion.

(Also, having a larger audience should provide it with a larger quantity of negative AND positive comments. I find no sense in it having mostly negative comments just because its more well known, while the less well known ones have mostly positive ones. That seems to me as something that could be the definition of unfair. In fact, check the beginning of this topic and you will find that, even though most of what people knew of this fan manga at the time was Broly and Vegetto fighting evenly in a weird setting, which is something that was constantly complained about later on, it mostly just had positive comments. And now, that we have seen much more than that and things better than that, its basically the opposite. Like I said, I don't know why its like that, I merely comment on what I find unfair, illogical or exaggerated).

I don't think it's at all fair to say just RandomGuy was doing it. He wasn't pushing it, he was replying to comments directed toward. He made so many posts because each was a reply to rereboy.

So if RandomGuy is pushing his opinion hard and often, so is rereboy, and just as much.

I agree that I "pushed" just as much as RandomGuy. After all, we engaged in a debate, and that's what happens in a debate, people push arguments to demonstrate their position. The difference, in my view, is simply that I didn't find sense in many of his arguments and after a point it gave me the feeling that the argument was going on just for the sake of arguing, with him, for example, denying or not admitting things like the unspoken "rule" in Dragon Ball that a dramatically superior fighter will easily resist or tank pretty much all Ki attacks from the other fighter which is why 99% of all fights in Dragon Ball are about power and not technique. When something that I feel is so obvious in the manga is denied or not admitted in a discussion, then obviously the discussion is going nowhere.

As for why I reply several times to RandomGuy in this topic, I do it solely because he has several times expressed comments that I thought were unfair, illogical or exaggerated, that's all.

Hmm...about this whole thing. I kind of see Armada's point, but, I can also heavily sympathize with Rereboy. I mean, Randomguy actually makes some good points (the whole "why did the blade cut through Uub and the Barrier so easily if even SS1 Pan was strong enough to soften it up" thing), but, the problem is he pushes his viewpoint so stinking hard and so stinking often that Rereboy and other supporters probably get sick of listening to it, meaning that they're not as open to what he has to say. In a way, it's almost seems like he's trying to force his opinion on them (although I'm sure that's not what his intentions are).

So, his overall criticisms are valid, but the presentation, I think, needs to be a bit smoother and more gradual if he wants to convince anyone. People aren't androids after all.

Even though God's blade never cut the barrier (that was another weapon from their elite armor, not to mention that the barrier probably only stops Ki-based attacks, which is why those attacks get through, so I'm gonna disagree with you on it being a good point), I also see the logic of what he said regarding its efficiency after cutting down someone, but not the fairness of the criticism. And all I ever did was try to provide him with some perspective for him to notice that.

Like I said, what is exactly wrong in the authors saying that this attack, due to how it works, loses, for example, more than 90% of its effectiveness after cutting down an opponent that is at least as strong as a SSJ1 because its rate of degradation after 40 cms increases exponentially in proportion to the toughness of what it cuts, but at 100% effectiveness it can cut even someone at SSj3 level?

I understand the logic in the attack losing power in a more proportional manner to the opponent it cuts down, which is what Randomguy implied should happen, and there's a simple logic to it, but what is exactly stopping it from losing power exponentially instead of proportionally? Its not an attack or weapon that exists on the manga, it doesn't work on Ki, it was totally invented by the authors of DBM, and yet its not fair for them to dictate just how its power decreases after cutting an opponent? Its instead fair to criticize them for dictating it when its different from what we might dictate if we were them? Nah, I don't think so.

And, also, the logic of what he said is only superficial. Like I talked about earlier, there's nothing to suggest that Uub was at SSj3 level when he was cut. The most likely scenario was that he was below even SSJ2 level. So, ironically, by analyzing it with care, we notice that the attack probably works just like RandomGuy wanted it to work, he just didn't notice before that the attack most likely hadn't actually cut someone using SSJ3 level power.

[dario03]

So did I miss something or shouldn't there also be a ghost Vegeta already? So even if this Vegeta beats the Cell Jr shouldn't there be a version of him from Raichi's universe? Don't know how strong he would be but even if he isn't as strong Vegeta would be weakened. And if Raichi wins then wouldn't there be another Ghost Vegeta.

Either way though doesn't the winner of this fight, fight the Winner of Daimo and Gast? Don't think SS2 Vegeta would do much against Gast. Raichi probably not either but he could pull out some more ghost warriors and then use new ghost Vegeta with maybe SS3 and if we ended up with ghost Gotenks (since Gotenks is fighting Zen Buu if Buu is allowed to fight).

[KentalSSJ6]

Can we just not have a multi page argument every time a page comes out? You could just as easily take it to pm's, where it would be preferred.

[rereboy]

Can we just not have a multi page argument every time a page comes out? You could just as easily take it to pm's, where it would be preferred.

PMs are not for debating arguments and opinions regarding a particular subject... That's what a topic in a forum basically is, actually, IMO, among other things.

[FoolsGil]

Can we just not have a multi page argument every time a page comes out? You could just as easily take it to pm's, where it would be preferred.

PMs are not for debating arguments and opinions regarding a particular subject.

It is when you're derailing a subject thread. The piece on whether Vegeta would or would not survive has been debated, both sides have made it clear their points, and they are sticking to their guns and no one will change their mind. Yet the debate continues, so it's become a circle jerk of who can out wit who in a discussion when the topic is ready to move on, because there is a new update.

[Hellspawn28]

I bet Vegeta will find a bullshit away to win this.

[rereboy]

Can we just not have a multi page argument every time a page comes out? You could just as easily take it to pm's, where it would be preferred.

PMs are not for debating arguments and opinions regarding a particular subject.

It is when you're derailing a subject thread. The piece on whether Vegeta would or would not survive has been debated, both sides have made it clear their points, and they are sticking to their guns and no one will change their mind. Yet the debate continues, so it's become a circle jerk of who can out wit who in a discussion when the topic is ready to move on, because there is a new update.

All the discussions were on topic. Derailing a subject thread implies moving past the topic at hand. And this particular discussion is pretty much dead already.

[Puto]

So wait. Is this the Cell Jr. that Gast killed, or the Cell Jr. that Cell killed before spawning a stronger one? And does this mean Vegeta will have to deal with another Cell Jr. if he manages to take out this one?

[KentalSSJ6]

So wait. Is this the Cell Jr. that Gast killed, or the Cell Jr. that Cell killed before spawning a stronger one? And does this mean Vegeta will have to deal with another Cell Jr. if he manages to take out this one?

Unless Vegeta asspulls SSJ3 here I don't see him winning.

[Puto]

The only way I can see him winning this fight would be by dodging around the ghost warriors and striking Lychee directly.