Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[RandomGuy96]

In terms of Ssj3 i think the best way to use it is to only use it during heavy attacks then go back to 2 for normal combat.

If you try that, you'll suddenly find that your opponent has put a hole in your chest faster than you could see them.

A significantly higher power level negates any drawbacks. If the opponent is anywhere near weak enough that you could actually survive as a SS2, they'd go down to one punch when you're a SS3, meaning energy drain will never have a chance to be an issue.

Not really. SSJ2 Vegeta managed to not die (again) agaisnt Kid Buu and obviously SSJ3 Goku didn't one shot him. Same thing with Fat Buu, Vegeta managed to hold out agaisnt him for a while and SSJ3 Goku didn't one shot Fat Buu.

So, it will depend on the situation. Also, an adversary like Buu can possibly make a SSJ3 wear itself out even if he has a power disadvantage purely due to his stamina and regeneration.

Pure Buu wasn't trying against Vegeta (even base Vegeta wasn't one-shotted) and Goku wasn't trying against Fat Buu (he showed he could outright tank a punch to the face, he was obviously far stronger), so that's not evidence of anything.

He can, we've seen him do it twice. But it won't matter if the power disadvantage is THAT big. Then they can just instantly kill the Majin with a few hits, like Goku seemed to be capable of doing to fatso.

SS3 is too strong. Any foe who you can even see move as a SS2 would be one-shot material with SS3, and any foe that could survive a hit from SS3 is going to one-shot YOU faster than you can react as a SS2. People need to get that through their heads. The drawbacks don't matter because the power level is so much higher. They only start to matter if the enemy is around your strength, and in that case the other form is so damn weak that you're still better off remaining in SS3, or else you'll instantly die.

[ChahikoDBZ]

Thought this might be relevant as of now.

[rereboy]

Pure Buu wasn't trying against Vegeta (even base Vegeta wasn't one-shotted) and Goku wasn't trying against Fat Buu (he showed he could outright tank a punch to the face, he was obviously far stronger), so that's not evidence of anything.

He can, we've seen him do it twice. But it won't matter if the power disadvantage is THAT big. Then they can just instantly kill the Majin with a few hits, like Goku seemed to be capable of doing to fatso.

SS3 is too strong. Any foe who you can even see move as a SS2 would be one-shot material with SS3, and any foe that could survive a hit from SS3 is going to one-shot YOU faster than you can react as a SS2. People need to get that through their heads. The drawbacks don't matter because the power level is so much higher. They only start to matter if the enemy is around your strength, and in that case the other form is so damn weak that you're still better off remaining in SS3, or else you'll instantly die.

You stated that a SSJ2 wouldn't be able to fight or survive fighting someone that a SSJ3 couldn't kill in one blow. I gave you two examples of such in the manga. In fact, they are the only two examples in the manga where we can directly compare a SSJ2's performance with a SSJ3's performance by seeing them fight agaisnt the same adversary. But you dismiss it because, since Buu didn't use every inch of power he had, he wasn't trying to beat his adversary? Instead of agreeing with me that it will really depend on the circumstances, like I stated? For example, if Buu didn't have regeneration, would he even have survived Vegeta's suicide attack? After all, semi-perfect Cell suicide attack killed FSSJ Goku... And that's just one circumstance...

(And all this without mentioning that the x4 thing for SSJ3 is exclusively a guidebook thing. There's no specific notion of how much SSJ3 increases power compared to SSJ2 in the manga, and frankly, we can easily assume a lower gain for SSJ3 in the manga and it would fit better with what happens in the manga than assuming a x4 increase).

And thank you, but I don't actually need to put your opinion through my head...

[RandomGuy96]

Pure Buu wasn't trying against Vegeta (even base Vegeta wasn't one-shotted) and Goku wasn't trying against Fat Buu (he showed he could outright tank a punch to the face, he was obviously far stronger), so that's not evidence of anything.

He can, we've seen him do it twice. But it won't matter if the power disadvantage is THAT big. Then they can just instantly kill the Majin with a few hits, like Goku seemed to be capable of doing to fatso.

SS3 is too strong. Any foe who you can even see move as a SS2 would be one-shot material with SS3, and any foe that could survive a hit from SS3 is going to one-shot YOU faster than you can react as a SS2. People need to get that through their heads. The drawbacks don't matter because the power level is so much higher. They only start to matter if the enemy is around your strength, and in that case the other form is so damn weak that you're still better off remaining in SS3, or else you'll instantly die.

You stated that a SSJ2 wouldn't be able to fight or survive fighting someone that a SSJ3 couldn't kill in one blow. I gave you two examples of such in the manga. In fact, they are the only two examples in the manga where we can directly compare a SSJ2's performance with a SSJ3's performance by seeing them fight agaisnt the same adversary. But you dismiss it because, since Buu didn't use every inch of power he had, he wasn't trying to beat his adversary? Instead of agreeing with me that it will really depend on the circumstances, like I stated? For example, if Buu didn't have regeneration, would he even have survived Vegeta's suicide attack? After all, semi-perfect Cell suicide attack killed FSSJ Goku... And that's just one circumstance...

(And all this without mentioning that the x4 thing for SSJ3 is exclusively a guidebook thing. There's no specific notion of how much SSJ3 increases power compared to SSJ2 in the manga, and frankly, we can easily assume a lower gain for SSJ3 in the manga and it would fit better with what happens in the manga than assuming a x4 increase).

And thank you, but I don't actually need to put your opinion through my head...

And I just explained to you why your examples don't mean anything. Unless you believe base Vegeta can hold his own against Pure Buu.

Really? You're trying to use the suicide explosion as an example of SS2's power? Don't play dumb with me. His ability to damage Buu with a suicide attack has nothing to do with his ability to not get one-shotted.

We can make a pretty good guess as to how much it increases, since SS2 Vegeta was crushed by Fatso, and SS3 Goku could tank his punches.

[rereboy]

And I just explained to you why your examples don't mean anything. Unless you believe base Vegeta can hold his own against Pure Buu.

Really? You're trying to use the suicide explosion as an example of SS2's power? Don't play dumb with me. His ability to damage Buu with a suicide attack has nothing to do with his ability to not get one-shotted.

We can make a pretty good guess as to how much it increases, since SS2 Vegeta was crushed by Fatso, and SS3 Goku could tank his punches.

Base Vegeta was what happened after SSJ2 Vegeta basically lost the fight. He was just getting beat. He didn't even attack in that state, as far as I can remember. SSJ2 Vegeta however, fought Kid Buu and held him off a bit, he wasn't helpless in the fight, like someone like Piccolo would be, he just had almost zero chance of winning.

I used it as an example of a circumstance where a SSJ2 would actually kill an around SSJ3 level fighter, since you seem to ignoring all circumstances besides the SSJ2 fighter being killed in one blow or something like that. And yes, the fighter's power is relevant even for the power of suicide attacks, otherwise Chaotzu would have done more to Nappa than make his armor dirty.

You can assume SSJ3 to be x4 the power of SSJ2 or x2 the power of SSJ2 or 1,5x the power of SSJ2 and it wouldn't change a thing in the Buu saga since they are all very significant differences. However, x2 or something like that makes a bit more sense than x4 the difference because that's a HUGE difference and Vegeta still was still able to fight for a bit agaisnt Fat Buu and Kid Buu. As it should always be the case, I don't interpret the manga in light of the guides.

I also would appreciate if you didn't call me dumb. Your demeanor leaves a lot to be desired...

[RandomGuy96]

And I just explained to you why your examples don't mean anything. Unless you believe base Vegeta can hold his own against Pure Buu.

Really? You're trying to use the suicide explosion as an example of SS2's power? Don't play dumb with me. His ability to damage Buu with a suicide attack has nothing to do with his ability to not get one-shotted.

We can make a pretty good guess as to how much it increases, since SS2 Vegeta was crushed by Fatso, and SS3 Goku could tank his punches.

Base Vegeta was what happened after SSJ2 Vegeta basically lost the fight. He was just getting beat. He didn't even attack in that state, as far as I can remember. SSJ2 Vegeta however, fought Kid Buu and held him off a bit, he wasn't helpless in the fight, like someone like Piccolo would be, he just had almost zero chance of winning.

I used it as an example of a circumstance where a SSJ2 would actually kill an around SSJ3 level fighter, since you seem to ignoring all circumstances besides the SSJ2 fighter being killed in one blow or something like that. And yes, the fighter's power is relevant even for the power of suicide attacks, otherwise Chaotzu would have done more to Nappa than make his armor dirty.

You can assume SSJ3 to be x4 the power of SSJ2 or x2 the power of SSJ2 or 1,5x the power of SSJ2 and it wouldn't change a thing in the Buu saga since they are all very significant differences. However, x2 or something like that makes a bit more sense than x4 the difference because that's a HUGE difference and Vegeta still was still able to fight for a bit agaisnt Fat Buu and Kid Buu. As it should always be the case, I don't interpret the manga in light of the guides.

I also would appreciate if you didn't call me dumb. Your demeanor leaves a lot to be desired...

He didn't fight him off at all. He just threw one blast at Buu, and from there just got beaten. He only survived because Buu wasn't trying. Heck, even base Vegeta was able to fight back, and make Buu bother to dodge.

It's not relevant to his ability to fight Buu without a suicide attack, or his ability to not die in one hit.

He couldn't fight them at all. He threw everything he had at Fat Buu, who was much weaker than Pure, and it did nothing. Only his likely amplified blast was noted to hurt Buu, and even then, Buu only said a hurt a tiny bit and then laughed about it. He could only not immediately die because his opponents were playing with him. Fat Buu utterly annihilated Vegeta with a few playful punches, but he got tanked by Goku. x4 might be a bit excessive (I don't think so, because of the Kaioshin Realm comment), but the manga plainly shows SS3 to be an ENORMOUS boost either way. When you have SS3, SS2 is simply useless, because SS3 can take out SS2 with one punch.

I'm not saying you're dumb, I'm saying that you're playing dumb. You know just as well as I do that Vegeta's ability to potentially kill fatso with a suicide attack has nothing to do with his ability to survive against a much stronger character. Special attacks are far beyond regular power. That'd be like if I said Nappa could have one shotted Goku and Piccolo from the beginning of the arc, but you disputed that because Piccolo's attack killed Raditz.

[rereboy]

I'm not saying you're dumb, I'm saying that you're playing dumb.

Wow, now I feel much better.

You know, this topic we are discussing, how well a SSJ2 could do or not compared to a SSJ3 against the same opponent, is very debatable since stuff like that was never very consistent in the manga. However, just because I present a different interpretation, opinion and arguments than you, you assume I'm playing dumb. What does that tell you...?

My opinion is simply that it will depend in the circumstances. The fight can certainly end in one blow or it might not. There's almost a infinity of variables besides just power, even though that's the most defining one. I believe that opinion and interpretation is far more coherent (compared to yours) with the fact that the manga is not THAT consistent regrading gaps and fighting performances and the fact the only two examples we have of that neither show the SSJ2 going down that easily or the SSJ3 winning that easily, even when we take into consideration that they weren't fighting to their hardest. I believe its a perfectly logical interpretation, presented with arguments and based on what we see in the manga, so, like I said, I would appreciate it if you didn't assume that I'm playing dumb, or stated that I need to get your opinion through my head... Like, you know, your opinion is the holy grail of opinions or something. Otherwise, I'm done with the subject.

[RandomGuy96]

Wow, now I feel much better.

You know, this topic we are discussing, how well a SSJ2 could do or not compared to a SSJ3 against the same opponent, is very debatable since stuff like that was never very consistent in the manga. However, just because I present a different interpretation, opinion and arguments than you, you assume I'm playing dumb. What does that tell you...?

That you know the difference between fighting a character and surviving against them and damaging a much weaker character with a special, amplified attack, yet are pretending not to.

My opinion is simply that it will depend in the circumstances. The fight can certainly end in one blow or it might not. There's almost a infinity of variables besides just power, even though that's the most defining one. I believe that opinion and interpretation is far more coherent (compared to yours) with the fact that the manga is not THAT consistent regrading gaps and fighting performances and the fact the only two examples we have of that neither show the SSJ2 going down that easily or the SSJ3 winning that easily, even when we take into consideration that they weren't fighting to their hardest.

There's nothing else you need to consider. The SS3-tier fighter was not using anywhere near their full power, and that's the only reason the SS2-tier did not immediately die. Goku later showed that he could tank Fat Buu with no issue, and this was the same Fat Buu that destroyed Vegeta with a few playful punches. SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta, SS2 Vegeta was easily destroyed by Fat Buu and couldn't even hurt him a little bit outside of using an amplified blast, and SS3 Goku tanked Fat Buu and beat him around without trying. SS3 takes out SS2 with one hit.

I believe its a perfectly logical interpretation, presented with arguments and based on what we see in the manga, so, like I said, I would appreciate it if you didn't assume that I'm playing dumb, or stated that I need to get your opinion through my head... Like, you know, your opinion is the holy grail of opinions or something.

You said yourself that in those fights you cited, the SS3-tier (Fat Buu and Pure Buu) were not using their full effort against the SS2-tier (Vegeta), so you have no argument.

[rereboy]

Sure, I have no argument. If you say so, who am I to disagree? I might as well get that through my thick head, and if I don't, well then, I must be playing dumb. Don't strain yourself trying to find any logic in my arguments, I'm sure that their logic doesn't conform with your view and as such, the argument itself is non-existent.

Continue to assume that in all circumstances, a SSJ2 won't be able to fight at all, survive or achieve nothing at all against an opponent around SSJ3 level (even though SSJ2 Vegeta was able to fight a bit against Fat Buu and Kid Buu, and might even have succeeded in killing Fat Buu if he had no regeneration - the buus underestimating him and not trying their hardest actually counts as a circumstance, just so you know - ) and that a SSJ3 will instantly kill any opponent at around SSJ2 level (even though an opponent with Buu like regeneration or troublesome abilities like that would most likely challenge that notion, which would also count as circumstances).

Instead of just, you know, actually having the good sense to acknowledge that circumstances will affect how well a fighter will do against such an opponent to a certain extent, making the fight vary from being over in one blow to actually holding out for a bit or a while or even possibly managing to hurt the superior opponent in special circumstances. Bah, what am I saying? How could you? Obviously there's no argument here.

[KentalSSJ6]

Just kiss already.

[rereboy]

Just kiss already.

I don't know what you mean. It seems I'm currently playing dumb.

[RandomGuy96]

Sure, I have no argument. If you say so, who am I to disagree? I might as well get that through my thick head, and if I don't, well then, I must be playing dumb. Don't strain yourself trying to find any logic in my arguments, I'm sure that their logic doesn't conform with your view and as such, the argument itself is non-existent.

Continue to assume that in all circumstances, a SSJ2 won't be able to fight at all, survive or achieve nothing at all against an opponent around SSJ3 level (even though SSJ2 Vegeta was able to fight a bit against Fat Buu and Kid Buu, and might even have succeeded in killing Fat Buu if he had no regeneration - the buus underestimating him and not trying their hardest actually counts as a circumstance, just so you know - ) and that a SSJ3 will instantly kill any opponent at around SSJ2 level (even though an opponent with Buu like regeneration or troublesome abilities like that would most likely challenge that notion, which would also count as circumstances).

Instead of just, you know, actually having the good sense to acknowledge that circumstances will affect how well a fighter will do against such an opponent to a certain extent, making the fight vary from being over in one blow to actually holding out for a bit or a while or even possibly managing to hurt the superior opponent in special circumstances. Bah, what am I saying? How could you? Obviously there's no argument here.

I have a hard time believing you don't recognize the difference between being able to take hits and being able to generate a strong special attack. But, you know, your argument against "the SS3 would just one-shot the SS2" is "a SS2 could damage someone far below a SS3 with a special suicide attack". Which is pretty much the same thing as saying "those Nameks with power levels of 3,000 on Namek couldn't one-shot Piccolo at the beginning of the series, because his attack killed Raditz". Am I overestimating you?

He never really fought the Buus. He threw everything he had at them, they laughed it off, and then they proceeded to destroy him while not using their full power. His ability to damage the weaker one with a suicide explosion says nothing about his regular power, as special attacks are far beyond a fighter's regular power.

Buu is not invincible. He can be taken down with one hit if the power gap is big enough. And considering that Fat Buu tanked SS2 Vegeta, and SS3 Goku tanked Fat Buu, it probably is. Not that this has anything to do with the idea of turning SS3 on and off during a battle.

I'm glad you finally acknowledge that SS3 is so drastically superior that the SS3 can pretty much take out the SS2 with one punch.

[rereboy]

I have a hard time believing you don't understand that different circumstances (which even include abilities, states of mind, overestimating and underestimating, distractions, strategy, techniques, and everything else you can think of besides power) will influence how well a fighter will do performance wise against such an opponent, and that we can't really expect a fighting performance to perfectly follow a power formula, especially since the manga is not even consistent regarding performance and gaps in power, but don't worry, I won't assume you are playing dumb or anything of the sort.

By the way, I never said it was impossible for a SSJ3 to take out a SSJ2 in one blow. I said that it might happen that way or it might not depending on circumstances. That's been what I said from the start as you can see here:

So, it will depend on the situation.

Funny how the mere fact that you missed that would give me more grounds to claim that you were playing dumb than you ever had to claim that of me.

Are we done now? Or are you going to continue stating phrases like that just because I didn't agree with you?

[Kaboom]

For crying out loud, enough already. RandomGuy96 and rereboy, I'm tired of getting system reports about these passive-aggressive snark-filled "debates" that keep breaking out between you and dominating topics like this one. I would strongly suggest that you two just stop interacting with each other for a while.

[Scarz]

Thought this might be relevant as of now.

At this point, Bardock's future psychic abilities are as reliable as The New York Post.

[Hades]

Thought this might be relevant as of now.

I'd rely more on the Daily Mail for the weather forecast than Bardock.

[mAcChaos]

Huh... 2nd form Cell's suicide blast killing FSSJ Goku.

I never thought of that being strange before. But now that I think about it...

[rereboy]

Suicide attacks are simply the strongest attack any fighter can achieve. With it, a fighter can conceivably hurt or even kill a stronger opponent. In fact, considering that Ki-ko-oh actually uses the life force of the user and affects his life expectancy, we can consider Ki-ko-oh as a non-lethal variation of those type of attacks.

[King Bardock]

That's called irony. Though U13 Vegeta could still win if he takes out Raichi now or finds it in his to go Super Saiyan. Even when drained Goku at times could summon enough Ki to transform.

[SSJ God Gogeta]

Welp It's over....