Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Rocketman]

Rocketman - 10,000

[TheDevilsCorpse]

Rocketman - 10,000

Have you been waiting all this time to make that reference? Because I don't think it lived up to the hype. xD

[Saiga]

Fuck, he got there before me.

[dbzfan7]

And so Rocketman retired at this milestone and became a family man.

[dbgtFO]

So, finally found time to do the Freeza arc:

I'm surprised you would assign levels for the guys on Kaio's planet, that fits with what see in the anime, rather than something which could be taken from the manga.
I don't really have a problem with it, but it just seemed a bit inconsistent for you, when you are hell-bent on Vegeta being slightly below 30,000 against Zarbon rather than just 30,000 like Daizenshuu 7 puts him. Of course the under 30,000 line did originate in the anime, but whatever.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Raditz, but I definitely agree on Nappa. Even though I've been arguing against his power being above 4,000 for the last couple of years, I've changed my mind back to what I originally thought; that his BP should be a lot higher than his official level.
I, like Randomguy, think, that the Weekly Jump power levels were provided by Toriyama, but he must have forgotten to revise Nappa's level for the list to make it consistent with Nappa's improved showing after calming down.
I think Nappa was originally supposed to just have a BP of 4,000, but then Toriyama decided he needed to have Goku showing off his new technique. That meant Nappa just about managed to keep up with Goku, rather than continually getting effortlessly trashed.

On another note this reminds me of how tiny the gap is between Piccolo Daimao(260) and his son(408).
After 8 years of training Piccolo is not even 2x(!) as strong as his father and I know he wasn't completely sane, when he claimed to be many times stronger than him, but damn, I really prefer there to be such a big gap in power levels, than the one we got.

All of this has to fit in between 260 and 408 afterall:
Piccolo Daimao = 15yo Goku(BP = 260) < 18yo Goku(weighted) < 18yo Goku(vs Ten) < Kami < Piccolo(against Kami) < Piccolo(warm up vs Goku) < Piccolo(full power) < Piccolo(Raditz arrival, BP = 408).

It just is too cramped for me. I would have preferred it, if they were reaching close to a thousand without special attacks.

[RandomGuy96]

There's nothing necessarily contradicting that view. After all, that same page lists 23rd Budokai Goku at 910, and in the manga Vegeta refers to Goku and Piccolo as having battle powers around 1,000, and is somehow aware that his enemies can suppress their powers when he reaches Earth. The only reason I don't currently go with it is because Daizenshuu 7 seems to be acting under the assumption that 416 and 408 were the real numbers for Goku and Piccolo (also, because the jump from 22nd Budokai Goku to young Daimao is still too cramped).

Of course, putting down power levels that make no sense would totally be in-character for Toriyama around this time. At the 23rd Budokai, weighted Goku was only supposed to be slightly stronger than Tenshinhan, and much slower. At the BOZ, where the relative strengths should have remained more or less unchanged, Tenshinhan is 250 and weighted Goku is 334, which going by the later fights we see in this arc would mean that weighted Goku could curb-stomp Tenshinhan. For more evidence of this, look at Roshi. He has a power level of 139 despite not training at all since the 22nd Budokai. That completely contradicts old Piccolo Daimao beating on 22nd Budokai Goku at half power, when Ten is supposed to have surpassed that Piccolo.

I, like Randomguy, think, that the Weekly Jump power levels were provided by Toriyama, but he must have forgotten to revise Nappa's level for the list to make it consistent with Nappa's improved showing after calming down. I think Nappa was originally supposed to just have a BP of 4,000, but then Toriyama decided he needed to have Goku showing off his new technique. That meant Nappa just about managed to keep up with Goku, rather than continually getting effortlessly trashed.

I, on the other hand, think that Toriyama simply always thought of him as 4,000 rather than simply forgetting what he drew a few chapters ago. I could buy him forgetting about the Piccolo Daimao arc, but him forgetting the very last fight that occurred when that page came out is more of a stretch. There are more than enough feats to put him quite low, plus every official source (Daizenshuu 7, SEG, Weekly Jump, probably some other guidebooks and video games that I don't know the names of) lists him at 4,000. Past a certain point, arguing against an official level that's so ingrained in the franchise, even in things that don't normally give a shit like video games, becomes a question of "why bother"? That's the same reason I stopped trying to push Goku and Piccolo being around 1,000 at the beginning of the series, even if I think that makes much more sense considering everything from the end of the 22nd Budokai to the end of the 23rd (old Daimao doesn't even use half his power to beat Goku senseless, young Daimao is stronger than old Daimao, Kami can finger flick young Daimao, Tenshinhan apparently surpasses young Daimao, Kami is no match for full power Piccolo Jr.). Plus, unlike putting Nappa at over seven thousand, Goku being around a thousand at the BOZ actually has official backing.

[ZombieVito]

Well, I have updated my list a bit for anyone that cares.

[KentalSSJ6]

Not mine, but curious to see what you make of it - http://gamingrealitytech.deviantart.com ... -470473070

[dbgtFO]

Not mine, but curious to see what you make of it - http://gamingrealitytech.deviantart.com ... -470473070

I don't like the format.

He has base Trunks at 3.5 million, but his Super Saiyan state at 185 million Against Mecha Freeza, which is a miscalculation. Trunks' base should be 3.7 million.
After the 3 years of training he has SS Vegeta over 3 times stronger, than Trunks, though Tenshinhan stated there shouldn't be that big a difference between Trunks, Goku and Vegeta.
He also has Super Vegeta greater than ½ of FPSS Goku's power, when Vegeta conceded, that Goku was stronger than him after only sensing ½ his power.

Piccolo gets over 10 times stronger between the Cell Arc and Buu Arc, despite it not actually being needed at all.
For some reason he has suppressed SS3 Goku(200 billion) at less than SS2 Goku(240 billion), which I don't think makes much sense.
His power level of Gotenks pre-rosat is pretty close to mine(2.4 billion), so I'm not disagreeing with that

Gotenks-Buu gets an extra 12.5 billion slapped on, but Piccolo's power level was 30 billion, so that seems like a mistake. Likewise Piccolo-Buu has that 12.5 billion slapped on, but also a further 400 million, which has to come from the runts, but they only have a combined power level of 210 milliion.
Gohan-Buu is 20 trillion for some reason, when previous calculations indicate he should only be ½ of that.

Battle of Gods Mystic Gohan is given a power level of 12 trillion, but in the brackets it says 6.5 trillion. Same thing happens to enraged SSJ2 Vegeta who is 450 trillion, but 300 trillion in brackets.

It's also weird Krillin and Yamcha continually gets massively stronger after the Cell Games, when they both retired. They should be regressing, not improving. It makes sense, that Tenshinhan keeps improving, though he won't get much love for having Tenshinhan continually above Krillin.

[KentalSSJ6]

Where would you guys put SSJ4 Goku?

Going by a 100 million base in EOZ and the whole GT Base > Z SSJ3 and the SSJ4 = X4000 Base, that would place SSJ4 Goku at what, 160 trillion? I think it could work, along with being a number for Super Vegetto (as I subscribe to Goku equaling him and not surpassing him).

[Saiga]

Myself, I use a 40,000x multiplier for SS4 - it's ridiculously huge, but I feel it matches the events of the Baby Arc much better - but I'm really unsure where to place base GT Goku at. Previously I had gone with him being stronger than Super Vegetto based on anime stuff with Pure Boo as the strongest Boo and whatnot, but RandomGuy pointed out that the anime also adds scenes that reinforce Evil Boo being stronger than Goku so that idea is probably shot. Before changing that idea, and also assuming that base GT Gohan ~= Rild, I had Super Saiyan 4 Goku as 123,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 initially. At least that's it if I expanded that scientific notation correctly.

If I just went off the idea that the anime ultimately had the same battle powers as the manga, then I'd have SS4 Goku as 450,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 minimum.

[Regarder]

Has anyone used the amount of times someone appears who can stomp the last strongest person x the minimum estimated % needed to overwhelmingly stomp someone yet for lists yet? (I'm not going through the whole thread)

This method is probably the most conservative low ball powerlevel estimation method possible, since IIRC the minimum established power level difference to be overwhelmingly better than someone is pretty low. IIRC it was 25% (Zarbon vs Vegeta? I need to go and check).

[Kamiccolo9]

Has anyone used the amount of times someone appears who can stomp the last strongest person x the minimum estimated % needed to overwhelmingly stomp someone yet for lists yet? (I'm not going through the whole thread)

This method is probably the most conservative low ball powerlevel estimation method possible, since IIRC the minimum established power level difference to be overwhelmingly better than someone is pretty low. IIRC it was 25% (Zarbon vs Vegeta? I need to go and check).

You have no idea what you are getting yourself into. Get out while you can.

[Darkron2151]

Couple questions before I submit my copious amounts of Power Levels.

• 1. How big of a gap would you all give between Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (Cell Games) and Super Saiyan 2 Goku (Buu Saga)? Was Gohan around 90% of Goku? Higher? Lower? I'm kinda lost here
  
  2. Should I even consider Ki Attack Amplification (example: S. Kamehameha= 2.22+)? To be honest, I don't know what to believe at this point, whether 924 was just Goku's full power through a ki attack or if there was amplification involved.

[RandomGuy96]

Couple questions before I submit my copious amounts of Power Levels.

• 1. How big of a gap would you all give between Super Saiyan 2 Gohan (Cell Games) and Super Saiyan 2 Goku (Buu Saga)?
  
  2. Should I even consider Ki Attack Amplification (example: S. Kamehameha= 2.22+)? To be honest, I don't know what to believe at this point, whether 924 was just Goku's full power through a ki attack or if there was amplification involved.

1. Not very big at all. Piccolo had a hard time telling the difference between SS2 Majin Vegeta and CG SS2 Gohan, and none of the comments relating to the difference between Majin Vegeta/Goku and Gohan made that gap sound large.

2. One thing's for sure: the Kamehameha isn't x2.22+ past Raditz. Otherwise, no time where it's used makes any sense. I, personally, think that Goku's full power being 924+ (and him and all the other fighters being suppressed) at the BOZ is very plausible. I don't go with it myself at the moment, but it does match a lot of things that otherwise don't fit, like:
-Vegeta saying that Piccolo and Goku had battle powers of a little over 1,000.
-Raditz not saying Gohan surpassed Goku until he jumped to 1,307, despite reading him at 710 earlier.
-Vegeta instantly knowing that the Earthlings could suppress their battle powers when arriving on the planet, when if 416/408 were Goku/Picolo's true powers, he shouldn't even know that to be possible.
-V-Jump listing 23rd Budokai Goku at 910.
-Old Piccolo Daimao stomping 22nd Budokai Goku at half power, even though 22nd Budokai Goku = Roshi = 139 < old Daimao < young Daimao < Tenshinhan (?) < 250, going by the levels stated in the manga.
-All the other statements about large power jumps (except Jr's "many times stronger").
-The humans benefiting so much from Kami's training while Goku apparently gained very little.

[Darkron2151]

2. One thing's for sure: the Kamehameha isn't x2.22+ past Raditz. Otherwise, no time where it's used makes any sense. I, personally, think that Goku's full power being 924+ (and him and all the other fighters being suppressed) at the BOZ is very plausible. I don't go with it myself at the moment, but it does match a lot of things that otherwise don't fit, like:
-Vegeta saying that Piccolo and Goku had battle powers of a little over 1,000.
-Raditz not saying Gohan surpassed Goku until he jumped to 1,307, despite reading him at 710 earlier.
-Vegeta instantly knowing that the Earthlings could suppress their battle powers when arriving on the planet, when if 416/408 were Goku/Picolo's true powers, he shouldn't even know that to be possible.
-V-Jump listing 23rd Budokai Goku at 910.
-Old Piccolo Daimao stomping 22nd Budokai Goku at half power, even though 22nd Budokai Goku = Roshi = 139 < old Daimao < young Daimao < Tenshinhan (?) < 250, going by the levels stated in the manga.
-All the other statements about large power jumps (except Jr's "many times stronger").
-The humans benefiting so much from Kami's training while Goku apparently gained very little.

This could also help in a minimalist's perspective (such as myself). Meaning now, Piccolo's "Light Grenade" can stand to be at 1.5-2x, otherwise seeming as though it was over 3x since it would have to be a boost of equal or greater power than that of the Makankosappo. If it wasn't, then why bother use it against Cell when SBC is stronger?......And this also means I now have to make a DB list

[RandomGuy96]

2. One thing's for sure: the Kamehameha isn't x2.22+ past Raditz. Otherwise, no time where it's used makes any sense. I, personally, think that Goku's full power being 924+ (and him and all the other fighters being suppressed) at the BOZ is very plausible. I don't go with it myself at the moment, but it does match a lot of things that otherwise don't fit, like:
-Vegeta saying that Piccolo and Goku had battle powers of a little over 1,000.
-Raditz not saying Gohan surpassed Goku until he jumped to 1,307, despite reading him at 710 earlier.
-Vegeta instantly knowing that the Earthlings could suppress their battle powers when arriving on the planet, when if 416/408 were Goku/Picolo's true powers, he shouldn't even know that to be possible.
-V-Jump listing 23rd Budokai Goku at 910.
-Old Piccolo Daimao stomping 22nd Budokai Goku at half power, even though 22nd Budokai Goku = Roshi = 139 < old Daimao < young Daimao < Tenshinhan (?) < 250, going by the levels stated in the manga.
-All the other statements about large power jumps (except Jr's "many times stronger").
-The humans benefiting so much from Kami's training while Goku apparently gained very little.

This could also help in a minimalist's perspective (such as myself). Meaning now, Piccolo's "Light Grenade" can stand to be at 1.5-2x, otherwise seeming as though it was over 3x since it would have to be a boost of equal or greater power than that of the Makankosappo. If it wasn't, then why bother use it against Cell when SBC is stronger?......And this also means I now have to make a DB list

Because he doesn't expect Cell to sit there and let him charge for five minutes? Because it could very easily miss? Because making a hole in Cell is in all likelihood not going to kill him?

[Darkron2151]

Because he doesn't expect Cell to sit there and let him charge for five minutes? Because it could very easily miss? Because making a hole in Cell is in all likelihood not going to kill him?

He could pull a Vegeta and goad Cell into challenging his attack . But then again, Cell was pretty focused on absorbing the Androids, so he might not fall for it. Also, Namekian regeneration has its limits. As we've seen (Dodoria killing a Namekian Warrior BY putting a hole in him, Piccolo being shot in the "heart" by Freeza with a death beam, Cell blasting a hole through Piccolo and nearly killing him), "holes" can cause serious damage and or weaken the user drastically, even with Namekian regeneration. Now if Piccolo did put a hole in Cell, it probably wouldn't have killed him. But I'd bet my bottom dollar it would at least cause some serious difficulty or, at the very least, weaken him. That would also help at least stall for the androids to escape, and or let Android 16 destroy him while he's vulnerable.

Anyways, one other problem that's been buzzing around in my head pertains to how strong Namekian fusion is. Also, does it vary with each Namekian (such as Piccolo with Nail vs. Piccolo with Kami)?

[xmysticgohanx]

Has anyone used the amount of times someone appears who can stomp the last strongest person x the minimum estimated % needed to overwhelmingly stomp someone yet for lists yet? (I'm not going through the whole thread)

This method is probably the most conservative low ball powerlevel estimation method possible, since IIRC the minimum established power level difference to be overwhelmingly better than someone is pretty low. IIRC it was 25% (Zarbon vs Vegeta? I need to go and check).

lowest is 1.33 x. The ones lower than that are contradicted by Beerus vs Goku which is the most recent fight. It's from KKx2 Goku vs Vegeta and other fights I don't remember. Btw using that number, USSJ is 119x and ASSJ is 67x because SSJ Vegeta = semi perfect Cell > ASSJ Vegeta > perfect Cell suppressed > USSJ Trunks. So basically 120x and 65x

(instead of using ">" as meaning a win, I'm using it as a stomp)

[RandomGuy96]

Because he doesn't expect Cell to sit there and let him charge for five minutes? Because it could very easily miss? Because making a hole in Cell is in all likelihood not going to kill him?

He could pull a Vegeta and goad Cell into challenging his attack . But then again, Cell was pretty focused on absorbing the Androids, so he might not fall for it. Also, Namekian regeneration has its limits. As we've seen (Dodoria killing a Namekian Warrior BY putting a hole in him, Piccolo being shot in the "heart" by Freeza with a death beam, Cell blasting a hole through Piccolo and nearly killing him), "holes" can cause serious damage and or weaken the user drastically, even with Namekian regeneration. Now if Piccolo did put a hole in Cell, it probably wouldn't have killed him. But I'd bet my bottom dollar it would at least cause some serious difficulty or, at the very least, weaken him. That would also help at least stall for the androids to escape, and or let Android 16 destroy him while he's vulnerable.

Anyways, one other problem that's been buzzing around in my head pertains to how strong Namekian fusion is. Also, does it vary with each Namekian (such as Piccolo with Nail vs. Piccolo with Kami)?

Imperfect Cell =/= Perfect Cell. It wouldn't work on him. Also, Cell could just dodge even if he did let Piccolo charge it (which he wouldn't). Heck, with how slow that technique is, Cell would have enough time to fight 16, absorb 17, transform, chase 18, and one-shot 16 before Piccolo ever finished charging.

Piccolo regenerated from being shattered in the Buu arc. I doubt just making a small hole in Cell is going to kill him, at least when he starts out with full ki.