Majuub & Uubu; Naming Conventions

[VegettoEX]

Let's take "buruma", for example. That name is based on the word "bloomer". And yet we're using the spelling "Bulma". Instead of, say, "Bluma", despite the fact that would make the pun more apparent.

I've actually been sitting on this one for a while, because I honestly think it's the only relevant example you've used thus far. And it's a damn good one.

You're right; if we wanted to bring out the pun of the name, we should spell it as "Bluma".

But let's take a look at some other names, first.

Ignore the spelling we use of "Tullece" for a second, and go with the original name: taaresu. We know the pun is on "lettuce", right? Well, let's rearrange the syllables to get that out there. Let's just call it "Retas" (or even "Letas"). That works, right?

That's what I think writing out buruma as "Bluma" would do. By switching the syllables around, yes, you're saying what the pun is... but then you're in effect ruining the author's name for the character and actual name pun by trying to be so god damn clever about it (see: Viz).

Does that make sense? I'm of the school of thought that the spelling should bring out the name pun, but it also shouldn't destroy the syllable/sound order of the original kana, either.

Again, I have to wonder what English has to do with that name.

Oh, please. This is such an obvious attempt at a holier-than-thou, grasp-for-straws argument.

With the exception of French (the amount to which Japanese and French cultures intertwine is pretty impressive), English is the sole language that Japanese people throw in their spoken language and work to be "cool" and "hip" and "worldly".

If you're going to be so snide about it, at least make yourself clear. Are you expecting us to say "the original Latin alphabet supplemented with additional letters as used in present-day North American Modern English"...?

[MajinVejitaXV]

Let's take "buruma", for example. That name is based on the word "bloomer". And yet we're using the spelling "Bulma". Instead of, say, "Bluma", despite the fact that would make the pun more apparent.

...that may actually be one of the better arguements I've read in my 7 years online in the DB community. Also, I've gotta agree that factoring English proficiency in when determining which spellings are 'accurate' isn't the most logical, at least in my opinion.

-Corey

Edit:

Oh, please. This is such an obvious attempt at a holier-than-thou, grasp-for-straws argument.

But still, when determining the correct spelling of クリリン, how does English proficiency factor in? It's a pun of a Japanese word, no? So how does one say, "Well, obviously Kuririn is more official then Klilyn because Toriyama doesn't know English" in such a case?

[Rocketman]

If you're going to be so snide about it, at least make yourself clear. Are you expecting us to say "the original Latin alphabet supplemented with additional letters as used in present-day North American Modern English"...?

We should translate it into Imperial Roman Latin.

Ave Vegetius!

[Olivier Hague]

Ignore the spelling we use of "Tullece" for a second, and go with the original name: taaresu. We know the pun is on "lettuce", right? Well, let's rearrange the syllables to get that out there. Let's just call it "Retas" (or even "Letas"). That works, right?

If we have no idea as to how the name is supposed to be spelled in alphabet, "Retas" or "Letas" are both valid spellings, indeed.
[EDIT: No, wait, I wasn't paying attention. Sorry.
Why would you rearrange the syllables like that? I'm not following you.]

Thing is, his name has already been spelled in alphabet, on Japanese merchandise: "Tulece".

Now, is there anything wrong with the "Tulece" spelling?
1) It's been officially used
2) It "fits" with the katakana
On top of that, you could argue that whoever came up with it knew about the pun (the final "ce", for one thing, would be a pretty big coincidence, otherwise), and left it visible enough.
I guess you may object that there's a letter missing... But then again, it was "ta-resu" in katakana, whereas an actual katakana anagram of the word "ratesu" would have been "taresu" with a short "ta". And if the Japanese anagram was altered further, can you really argue that the alphabet one shouldn't be?

This is how I "work", personally:

1) I check if there's an alphabet spelling in the original manga or in Japanese merchandise (extra points if it's in the manga or in a Toriyama illustration, naturally).
2) I check if it's used consistently (extra points if it is, or if it's far more common than the alternate spellings).

Unless the spelling I end up with is waaaaay too weird compared to the supposed pronunciation/katakana spelling (for example, "Hiskoa" apparently is the "official spelling" of a "Hunter x Hunter" character named "hisoka" in katakana... er... that might be a typo), I tend to "adopt" it.

As for the "pun visibility"... Well, it's not like we really know how obvious exactly the puns are supposed to be in alphabet anyway, so I don't consider it a priority. Just a nice bonus if it's there.

That's what I think writing out buruma as "Bluma" would do. By switching the syllables around

Well, you wouldn't really be "switching syllables around".
"Buruma" can stand for "Bulma" and "Bluma" (and also "Buluma", "Bruma", etc). It's just a different interpretation of the kana.

yes, you're saying what the pun is... but then you're in effect ruining the author's name for the character

But why do you think you'd be "ruining the author's name for the character"? Isn't it because you know (and accept) that the author spells it "Bulma" in our alphabet?

That's the thing I don't understand: sometimes, you just disregard the spellings you see in the manga or in Japanese merchandise to prioritize the pun and/or the simplicity of the transliteration... and other times, you forget about all these considerations and just go with the "official spelling" ("Bulma").
It just seems a bit inconsistent to me.

I'm of the school of thought that the spelling should bring out the name pun, but it also shouldn't destroy the syllable/sound order of the original kana, either.

I understand (even if I slightly disagree about the importance of keeping the pun as visible as possible, as said above), but is there anything wrong with "Bluma", in that respect? It doesn't destroy the syllable/sound order of the original kana.

Again, I have to wonder what English has to do with that name.

Oh, please. This is such an obvious attempt at a holier-than-thou, grasp-for-straws argument.

Not at all.
There's absolutely nothing English about the name we're talking about. "Kururin" is a pun on a Japanese word, and that's it. So I fail to see how Toriyama's English skills factor at all, here.

Are you expecting us to say "the original Latin alphabet supplemented with additional letters as used in present-day North American Modern English"...?

Let's just say "our alphabet".
So. Are you saying that Toriyama's alphabet skills are poor?

[VegettoEX]

But still, when determining the correct spelling of クリリン, how does English proficiency factor in? It's a pun of a Japanese word, no? So how does one say, "Well, obviously Kuririn is more official then Klilyn because Toriyama doesn't know English" in such a case?

I think I already answered your question in my above post .

There are a lot of things to keep in mind:

(01) The language the name pun is based off of (English, Japanese, Chinese, French, etc.)
(02) What the name pun actually is (a food, a proper name, an onomatopoeia, etc.)
(03) How much of that name pun is / should be prevalent
(04) What language (and thus alphabet) you're writing out the name in (in our case, romanizing)
(05) Consistency among official Japanese merchandise
(06) What the original author may have written, and its own consistency
(07) Standardized, scholarly-accepted romanizations of words (see dictionaries)

I definitely have a problem with Toriyama's own romanizations of names. "Gokuh" is flat-out wrong; we KNOW what the name is, since it's the name of a pre-existing character in literature. The name is supposed to be written as "Son Gokuu". There's no "ou". There's no "uh". There's no debate about it at all.

孫悟空 *is* Sun Wu-k'ung (via Wade-Giles) when coming from Chinese. It's written in the exact same way with the exact same characters in Japanese. The reading/writing of that coming from Japanese *is* Son Gokuu. It's not open to interpretation, because Toriyama didn't come up with it, and he didn't change it. Therefore... yes... he's wrong. It's not a big deal, but he's wrong.

(Of course, then most of us just go and drop the elongated vowel sound at the end, because in spoken English it's not really necessary, and that somewhat translates into written English.)

However, that's probably the only one you can flat-out call him "wrong" on. I'm totally open to alternate romanizations. I don't think anyone's actually calling them "wrong"; I think what we're getting at is figuring out what's most appropriate.

When it comes to クリリン, here's the evidence / material we have:

• Official publications note that the name is a pun on "kuri" for "chestnut"
• Every dictionary will romanize "kuri" as such

Honestly, we could really just stop it there, even without taking into consideration things like extraneous vowels, syllable order, R vs L, official translations, etc.

I've got LANDMARK writing it as Klilyn (but also using Gokou and Begeta); I've got LANDMARK writing it as Buruma but FOREVER writing it as Bulma; we've got daizenshuu 4 writing it as Nameccian... I mean, can you really take *all* of this stuff seriously as gospel? I don't think you can, nor should you.

I obviously haven't set up a word filter on Klylin, or anything, because it's a commonly-accepted romanization that's even used by the author. It's not "wrong". But is it best? And who determines "best"? Should anyone?

Again, I'm only continuing to play devil's advocate against the other devil's advocate... I find this all incredibly fascinating.

Oliver's post came up as I was typing this, so I haven't responded to much of it, but I will say this:

So. Are you saying that Toriyama's alphabet skills are poor?

Yes, I am . And so are plenty of other people.

[Xyex]

Not at all.
There's absolutely nothing English about the name we're talking about. "Kururin" is a pun on a Japanese word, and that's it. So I fail to see how Toriyama's English skills factor at all, here.

Because we're talking about how the name would best be written/translated into English. Someone with poor/limited skills in English would do a poor job of writing in English. And besides that, I believe Mike's comments were directed to your mentioning of "Kulilin" and "Klylin" more so than "Kuririn".

Just becuase Toriyama-sama writes it as "Kulilin" doensn't mean that it's correct. That's like saying if you built a car and named it "Hawk" but painted "Howk" instead of "Hawk" on the side of it that "Howk" is the correct spelling.

[Casual Matt]

I think something else that should be considered is how the names are actually pronounced in the show.

For someone like Buruma, to me it sounds a heck of a lot more like they're saying Bulma as opposed to Bluma or whatever else.

IMHO, the same can be said for Kuririn. To me, that's what the characters are saying.

There are tons of characters whose names are pronounced differently than the romanji would lead you to believe.

Bideru is clearly spoken as Videl, Seru is Cell, Bejita is Vegeta, and so on and so fourth.

[Olivier Hague]

(03) How much of that name pun is / should be prevalent

That's a tricky one.
How can we tell how much of the pun should be prevalent? We're just readers. We can't really tell what the author's intentions were (or "would be", if he never considered the possibility of an alphabet spelling <- depressingly likely).

(07) Standardized, scholarly-accepted romanizations of words (see dictionaries)

I would argue that it only applies to actual words (like "red ribbon" or "time machine", i.e. words that you can find in a dictionary and that have the same meaning in-story), existing names (i.e. from our world), or names that have clear origins ("Shenlong" is written in kanji, and the kana show that it's the Chinese pronunciation).

I definitely have a problem with Toriyama's own romanizations of names. "Gokuh" is flat-out wrong

Er... It's not, actually. Some transliteration systems use the letter "h" to indicate a long sound. "Gokuh" = "Gokuu" = "Gokû". It really depends on the system you're using, so it's a matter of personal preference.

There's no "ou".

Now that's yet another matter altogether, and I'm not sure I want to go there, right now. ^___^;

• Official publications note that the name is a pun on "kuri" for "chestnut"
• Every dictionary will romanize "kuri" as such

Honestly, we could really just stop it there, even without taking into consideration things like extraneous vowels, syllable order, R vs L, official translations, etc.

If you think the pun is supposed to be left intact, yes. But how can we be sure about that?
And even then, we would just have "kuri", the beginning of the name. So is it "Kuririn"? "Kurilin"? "Kuriryn"? "Kurilyn"? "Kuririnn"? And so on...

I've got LANDMARK writing it as Klilyn

Like most Japanese merchandise.
But unlike Toriyama on at least one illustration.

I've got LANDMARK writing it as Buruma but FOREVER writing it as Bulma

"Bulma" is just so common, I don't think there's any doubt to have, here...

we've got daizenshuu 4 writing it as Nameccian...

A spelling that you can also find on other Japanese merchandise, and that makes perfect sense. Definitely the one I'd favor, myself.

It's not "wrong". But is it best? And who determines "best"? Should anyone?

Well, if I had to choose between us and the author... ^^;

So. Are you saying that Toriyama's alphabet skills are poor?

Yes, I am . And so are plenty of other people.

What makes you say that, then? ^^

Because we're talking about how the name would best be written/translated into English.

Into alphabet. It's an imaginary name. Not an English name, not an English word.

Someone with poor/limited skills in English would do a poor job of writing in English.

In English, yeah. In alphabet, though? There are millions of people who don't know English, and yet use alphabet properly in their daily life.
Why would someone with poor/limited skills in English necessarily do a poor job of spelling "Gandhi" or "concerto", for example?

Just becuase Toriyama-sama writes it as "Kulilin" doensn't mean that it's correct. That's like saying if you built a car and named it "Hawk" but painted "Howk" instead of "Hawk" on the side of it that "Howk" is the correct spelling.

It's nothing like that, as "kuririn" is a made-up imaginary name that was created by Toriyama, and "hawk" is an actual English word.

I think something else that should be considered is how the names are actually pronounced in the show.

Well, they're pronounced like the kana, really, so... ^^;;

[Kaboom]

I've created a monster!



But I get it. "Kuririn" > "Krillin." "Kuri" = "Chesnut," another name pun. Gotcha. It'll take me a bit, but I'll get into the habit of saying/typing Kuririn.

[Godo]

I don't get why this is important at all. Names are made for recognition, and there is only one Krillin/Kulilin/Kuririn in Dragonball!
If you say MajUub, you explain that it is Uub fused with Majin Buu! If you say Uub, it's the same person as Oob! Buu=Boo!
If you say Kamiccolo you explain that it's Piccolo fused with Kami!
If you say Videru, everyone knows that there is only one with similar name, which is Videl, which with using brain cells, makes you understand that Videru and Videl is the same person!
And why are the puns so important anyways? We know that Kuririn is a pun of "chestnut", probably referring to the shape of his head. Ain't that enough?

You overdo it, GOSH! Like Napoleon Dynamite would say.

Listen to the ones that know, if you disagree, take a f**king course in the language and prove youself right. Or open a dictionary. There are some that know kanji and whatever, so I guess they are not trying to fool us explaining, eh?
This language thing starts to get on my nerve. Listen to the ones that know, or forget the whole matter. Please.

EDIT: If an author says something, and another source says something, the author is right. If I say Frodo is not a hobbit, is it true? No, because Tolkien, the author had said that he is a hobbit. It doesn't matter if his son says Frodo isn't a hobbit.

[VegettoEX]

Umm... the whole point of a forum is to discuss things. If you don't like the discussion, don't read it...?

[Duo]

I don't get why this is important at all. Names are made for recognition, and there is only one Krillin/Kulilin/Kuririn in Dragonball!
If you say MajUub, you explain that it is Uub fused with Majin Buu! If you say Uub, it's the same person as Oob! Buu=Boo!
If you say Kamiccolo you explain that it's Piccolo fused with Kami!
If you say Videru, everyone knows that there is only one with similar name, which is Videl, which with using brain cells, makes you understand that Videru and Videl is the same person!
And why are the puns so important anyways? We know that Kuririn is a pun of "chestnut", probably referring to the shape of his head. Ain't that enough?

You overdo it, GOSH! Like Napoleon Dynamite would say.

Listen to the ones that know, if you disagree, take a f**king course in the language and prove youself right. Or open a dictionary. There are some that know kanji and whatever, so I guess they are not trying to fool us explaining, eh?
This language thing starts to get on my nerve. Listen to the ones that know, or forget the whole matter. Please.

I can't figure out who you're addressing that to, because all the people involved in the "name debate" for the past page or so are all quite familiar with the Japanese language and know what they are takling about about 1000 times more than you or I.

I'm confused.

[Sun_Wukong]

Why not? We're not writing "Bideru" and "Seru", are we?

Because your picky like that, thats why.

[VegettoEX]

Why not? We're not writing "Bideru" and "Seru", are we?

Because your picky like that, thats why.

"You're". "that's". .

No, we don't use those because it would be absolutely illogical to. They're puns based on words from the English language, so this even transcends the language/alphabet analogies. It would be like the old fansubbers who used "Taurus" because they didn't "get" the name (Hell, I think Anime Labs actually used "Bideru" in their movie 13...).

[Sun_Wukong]

I know, I was kidding.

[Olivier Hague]

They're puns based on words from the English language, so this even transcends the language/alphabet analogies.

I, for one, don't think it does, actually. I use "Videl" and "Cell" because that's how the names are spelled on official merchandise (well, that's the main reason, anyway).
Had Toriyama decided not to keep the pun intact in alphabet (say, "Bidel" and "Sell", for example), I'd go with his spellings.

But hey. That's me. We have different priorities, apparently. ^^

[VegettoEX]

They're puns based on words from the English language, so this even transcends the language/alphabet analogies.

I, for one, don't think it does, actually. I use "Videl" and "Cell" because that's how the names are spelled on official merchandise (well, that's the main reason, anyway).
Had Toriyama decided not to keep the pun intact in alphabet (say, "Bidel" and "Sell", for example), I'd go with his spellings.

But hey. That's me. We have different priorities, apparently. ^^

I can actually see where you're coming from on that. If the "mis-spelling" was intentional as part of the pun... that would make sense.

At Toriyama's request, Tapion's name was changed to such from an original name of "Tapioka", writing, "The name 'Tapioka' is too much like the original word, so how about at least changing it into something like 'Tapion'?" Of course, this kinda goes against what he did with Cell (where the name literally describes what he is), so even Toriyama's not consistent in what he decides. Again, his total inconsistency is another thing that brings me to disregard some of the Latin-based spellings he comes up with.

Not sure what else I'm getting at. Just tossing that out there .

[Kaboom]

Then again, a character named "Cell" sounds mysterious, powerful, and perhaps a tad evil, wheras very few people would likely take a character named "Tapioka" seriously.

But regardless... oi vey! All this from my one little "Kuririn" vs "Krillin" quandry?

**attempts to whistle**

[Olivier Hague]

I can actually see where you're coming from on that. If the "mis-spelling" was intentional as part of the pun... that would make sense.

Yup, that's what I was getting at. It's not necessarily a "misspelling", in the sense that it's not necessarily a mistake.

At Toriyama's request, Tapion's name was changed to such from an original name of "Tapioka", writing, "The name 'Tapioka' is too much like the original word, so how about at least changing it into something like 'Tapion'?" Of course, this kinda goes against what he did with Cell (where the name literally describes what he is), so even Toriyama's not consistent in what he decides.

But it's not like he has to be, here, does he? Why shouldn't he be free to mix obvious puns with more obscure ones?

[TripleRach]

Ignore the spelling we use of "Tullece" for a second, and go with the original name: taaresu. We know the pun is on "lettuce", right? Well, let's rearrange the syllables to get that out there. Let's just call it "Retas" (or even "Letas"). That works, right?

That's what I think writing out buruma as "Bluma" would do. By switching the syllables around, yes, you're saying what the pun is... but then you're in effect ruining the author's name for the character and actual name pun by trying to be so god damn clever about it (see: Viz).

Does that make sense? I'm of the school of thought that the spelling should bring out the name pun, but it also shouldn't destroy the syllable/sound order of the original kana, either.

Well, I agree about not rearranging the syllable order. But I don't think "Bluma" instead of "Bulma" really does that. I mean, ブ could correspond to "B" and ル to "lu" just as easily as ブ to "Bu" and ル to "l". I always figured Toriyama just thought of "BULL" instead of "BLUE" when he decided on "BULMA".

Personally, I like "Blooma", but I never really use it openly.