The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Galan007]

"Having to hold back immensely to not kill 18 in one attack" =/= "around 18's level".

It's funny to me how much you embellish on things when it suits you. The word "immensely" was NEVER used/implied--please refrain from acting like it was. It was also Trunks who launched the attack, not Goten.

Anyway, IF Goten alone were more powerful than #18, I don't think the difference was overtly significant. The difference between #18 and #16, however, was massive.

So yeah, still would go with #16.

[RandomGuy96]

"Having to hold back immensely to not kill 18 in one attack" =/= "around 18's level".

It's funny to me how much you embellish on things. The word "immensely" was NEVER used, please refrain from acting like it was. It was also Trunks who launched the attack, not Goten.

Anyway, IF Goten alone were more powerful than #18, I don't think the difference was overtly significant. The difference between #18 and #16, however, was massive.

Trunks is nearly the same strength as Goten, so it makes no difference. We know that it was an immense amount of power, since Trunks could give trouble to Vegeta.

Trunks gave some trouble to SS Vegeta, who at a much weaker level was able to toss Semi-Cell around like a ragdoll. Goten was nearly as strong as him, and also gave trouble to post-CG SS Gohan. This same Cell didn't even flinch from 16's punch. So no, 16 has zero chance. These kids can curb-stomp Piccolo, who should be dimensions above 16 at this point.

[Galan007]

Trunks is nearly the same strength as Goten, so it makes no difference. We know that it was an immense amount of power, since Trunks could give trouble to Vegeta.

Trunks gave some trouble to SS Vegeta, who at a much weaker level was able to toss Semi-Cell around like a ragdoll. Goten was nearly as strong as him, and also gave trouble to post-CG SS Gohan. This same Cell didn't even flinch from 16's punch. So no, 16 has zero chance. These kids can curb-stomp Piccolo, who should be dimensions above 16 at this point.

Lol, your definition of "giving someone trouble" must be a LOT different than mine.

And again, Goten would have to be massively more powerful than #18 to even have a chance against #16.
#16=Imperfect Cell>>>Piccolo=#17>#18

Sans ridiculously embellishing on his feats, nothing we saw from Goten was suggestive of him being THAT far beyond #18, imo.

[dbzfan7]

Android 16 VS SSJ Goten (Babidi Saga)

Goten demolishes 16. 16 can't even budge Semi-Perfect Cell. SSJ Gohan actually was worried and needs to block SSJ Goten, while someone at Semi Perfect Cell level doesn't need to block someone at 16's level as he doesn't even feel 16's attacks. SSJ Gohan is way above Semi Perfect Cell and would also feel nothing if 16 attacked him.

[RandomGuy96]

Trunks is nearly the same strength as Goten, so it makes no difference. We know that it was an immense amount of power, since Trunks could give trouble to Vegeta.

Trunks gave some trouble to SS Vegeta, who at a much weaker level was able to toss Semi-Cell around like a ragdoll. Goten was nearly as strong as him, and also gave trouble to post-CG SS Gohan. This same Cell didn't even flinch from 16's punch. So no, 16 has zero chance. These kids can curb-stomp Piccolo, who should be dimensions above 16 at this point.

Lol, your definition of "giving someone trouble" must be a LOT different than mine.

And again, Goten would have to be massively more powerful than #18 to even have a chance against #16.
#16=Imperfect Cell>>>Piccolo=#17>#18

Sans ridiculously embellishing on his feats, nothing we saw from Goten was suggestive of him being THAT far beyond #18, imo.

Except, you know, giving trouble to Gohan. His attacks scared Gohan and made him exert tons of effort. If there was a big gap between Gohan and Goten, this would not have happened. It would have looked like Goku vs Burter. I don't think I need to tell you that the gap between Gohan and 16 is gargantuan.

[Galan007]

Except, you know, giving trouble to Gohan. His attacks scared Gohan and made him exert tons of effort. If there was a big gap between Gohan and Goten, this would not have happened. It would have looked like Goku vs Burter. I don't think I need to tell you that the gap between Gohan and 16 is gargantuan.

Are you honestly trying to act like that little sparring match puts Goten in the same ballpark as Gohan? If so, we're done.

[White Oni]

Except, you know, giving trouble to Gohan. His attacks scared Gohan and made him exert tons of effort. If there was a big gap between Gohan and Goten, this would not have happened. It would have looked like Goku vs Burter. I don't think I need to tell you that the gap between Gohan and 16 is gargantuan.

Are you honestly trying to act like that little sparring match puts Goten in the same ballpark as Gohan? If so, we're done.

Oh of course it does.

Btw, did you see how pissed Vegeta was when Trunks hit him? Clearly, Trunks is Vegeta's better.

[RandomGuy96]

Except, you know, giving trouble to Gohan. His attacks scared Gohan and made him exert tons of effort. If there was a big gap between Gohan and Goten, this would not have happened. It would have looked like Goku vs Burter. I don't think I need to tell you that the gap between Gohan and 16 is gargantuan.

Are you honestly trying to act like that little sparring match puts Goten in the same ballpark as Gohan? If so, we're done.

Yes, because it does. Gohan clearly exerts a lot of effort to block Goten. Vegeta does the same with Trunks. He even panics enough that he reflexively punches Trunks to get him to stop.

Yes, just quit again. It's a great way of wiggling out of actually having to form an argument or provide evidence. Just act condescending and then stop responding.

[Galan007]

Oh of course it does.

Btw, did you see how pissed Vegeta was when Trunks hit him? Clearly, Trunks is Vegeta's better.

Clearly.

[dbzfan7]

Spoiler:

Gohan shouldn't even have to block. If Goten is that weak, Goten's punches would tickle him at best. I also don't see how he'd work up a sweat against a 18 level opponent when the gap between SSJ Gohan and 18 is much larger than Semi Perfect Cell and 16.

[Angelus]

Um guys it was a spar between Gohan and Goten and Trunks and Vegeta. We don't try to kill each other when we spar, in our martial arts classes. That would mean that me and my spar mates are not at 100% full power or are using out full potential when we spar.

Here's a video example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o509Gbajeow

^That's only an example. I personally have never met those two in real-life. To those who don't know what they're doing, they're trying to break joints and do chokes in the spar, although it looks a lot like hugging.

That Royce Gracie is a legend in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. That guy he's sparring with is not skilled at all yet he's lasting longer than what most blackbelts better than him would. That Joe also manages to do moves and escapes out of locks that practitioners of much higher level won't be able to pull off. Yet, Joe did. Royce isn't at full power or is in a mindset to destroy Joe. This is a spar but we shouldn't use that as a measuring stick for how skilled Joe is for supposedly pulling off feats in that spar that most people more skilled than him wont be able to pull off. He's nowhere near Royce's level.

[White Oni]

Sparring is to fighting as waifasu is to marriage.

Anyone who has ever been even remotely involved in martial arts/wrestling/combat training, knows that training and sparring are ENTIRELY different from fighting. You block attacks, not because they could hurt you, but because repetition and practice is how you master your art. You sweat, not because your sparring partner is your equal, but because you're pushing your body by performing high energy, exhausting physical tasks.

The only thing that's established when argues with something along the lines of,"Look how intense their sparring session looks, they must be equals", is that the person making their "point" has NEVER sparred or possibly even physically trained before...

[RandomGuy96]

Um guys it was a spar between Gohan and Goten and Trunks and Vegeta. We don't try to kill each other when we spar, in our martial arts classes. That would mean that me and my spar mates are not at 100% full power or are using out full potential when we spar.

Here's a video example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o509Gbajeow

^That's only an example. I personally have never met those two in real-life. To those who don't know what they're doing, they're trying to break joints and do chokes in the spar, although it looks a lot like hugging.

That Royce Gracie is a legend in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. That guy he's sparring with is not skilled at all yet he's lasting longer than what most blackbelts better than him would. That Joe also manages to do moves and escapes out of locks that practitioners of much higher level won't be able to pull off. Yet, Joe did. Royce isn't at full power or is in a mindset to destroy Joe. This is a spar but we shouldn't use that as a measuring stick for how skilled Joe is for supposedly pulling off feats in that spar that most people more skilled than him wont be able to pull off. He's nowhere near Royce's level.

Reality is not relevant here. These are not martial artists, these are gods throwing metaphysical amounts of planet busting energy at each other. We're talking about a series where your opponent being merely way too fast for you to touch rather than effectively invisible means you're somewhat close to them. Where a less than x2 battle power difference is the difference between blowing up a city (triple digit kilotons to low megatons AT BEST) and blowing up the moon (easily many petatons of TNT equivalent). Trunks is clearly shown to be closer to Vegeta than, say, Burter was to Goku. In that case, the stronger fighter casually countered the weaker while not using any effort, and then moved so fast he couldn't see.

[dbzfan7]

Goku vs Tenshinhan was more of a sparring match in comparison to this. Goku was shown breathing easily throughout the event even when it looked like the fight was close. That symbolizes that Goku treated the event as a sparring match as he barely had any real damage or problems. He wasn't winded in the slightest nor showed difficulty fighting Tenshinhan.

Gohan and Vegeta on the other hand do not share that same trait. They look like they're having a rougher time. Vegeta had to punch Trunks as he couldn't keep avoiding him. If Trunks was 18 level, then Vegeta wouldn't have this issue at all with Trunks as I doubt 18 can even lay a hand on Semi Perfect Cell. Gohan's facial expressions show he's having a difficult time fending off Goten. He'd be smiling more or shown dodging Goten rather than all those worried expressions he has in each panel where he blocks Goten. No panel shows Gohan or Vegeta being in complete control.

[White Oni]

Goku vs Tenshinhan was more of a sparring match in comparison to this. Goku was shown breathing easily throughout the event even when it looked like the fight was close. That symbolizes that Goku treated the event as a sparring match as he barely had any real damage or problems. He wasn't winded in the slightest nor showed difficulty fighting Tenshinhan.

Gohan and Vegeta on the other hand do not share that same trait. They look like they're having a rougher time. Vegeta had to punch Trunks as he couldn't keep avoiding him. If Trunks was 18 level, then Vegeta wouldn't have this issue at all with Trunks as 18 can't lay a hand on Semi Perfect Cell. Gohan's facial expressions show he's having a difficult time fending off Goten. He'd be smiling more or shown dodging Goten rather than all those worried expressions he has in each panel where he blocks Goten. No panel shows Gohan or Vegeta being in complete control.

Goku vs Tenshinhan isn't sparring... It's fighting, Goku outclassed Tien, so he wasn't winded or tired, because it wasn't the time for pushing himself, like one does when they spar. No, it was a time to warm up for the real fight.

Gohan I see as being winded and sweaty, because he was sparring, pushing his own body, not because Goten was pushing his body.

Vegeta and Trunks weren't sparring, Vegeta was playing a game with Trunks and threw a hissy fit when he lost.

[Angelus]

My point was, they were sparring, not fighting each other. Thus, Goten/Trunks being able to do well in a spar shouldn't be a measuring stick. It's a spar. The same way that guy in that video, who had one day of BJJ training was able to pull off feats over a BJJ legend, when that guy's level of skill was dimensions apart from that BJJ legend's.

Vegeta and Gohan were not at full power or had the mindset. If they were at full power and in bloodlust, Goten and Trunks wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance. They're not in the same league. And yet we're judging this from a sparring session?

An analogy, just because I appear tired from horsing around with my kiddie Nephews does not mean they're close to my level of skill.

[dbzfan7]

Goku vs Tenshinhan was more of a sparring match in comparison to this. Goku was shown breathing easily throughout the event even when it looked like the fight was close. That symbolizes that Goku treated the event as a sparring match as he barely had any real damage or problems. He wasn't winded in the slightest nor showed difficulty fighting Tenshinhan.

Gohan and Vegeta on the other hand do not share that same trait. They look like they're having a rougher time. Vegeta had to punch Trunks as he couldn't keep avoiding him. If Trunks was 18 level, then Vegeta wouldn't have this issue at all with Trunks as 18 can't lay a hand on Semi Perfect Cell. Gohan's facial expressions show he's having a difficult time fending off Goten. He'd be smiling more or shown dodging Goten rather than all those worried expressions he has in each panel where he blocks Goten. No panel shows Gohan or Vegeta being in complete control.

Goku vs Tenshinhan isn't sparring... It's fighting, Goku outclassed Tenshinhan, so he wasn't winded or tired, because it wasn't the time for pushing himself, like one does when they spar. No, it was a time to warm up for the real fight.

Gohan I see as being winded and sweaty, because he was sparring, pushing his own body, not because Goten was pushing his body.

Vegeta and Trunks weren't sparring, Vegeta was playing a game with Trunks and threw a hissy fit when he lost.

You're missing the point. Goku wasn't even trying at all, and wasn't winded in the slightest. Gohan and Vegeta show they're having difficulty. If they weren't having any difficulty, then Gohan and Vegeta's composure would be more like Goku's who even when hit still wasn't winded. Gohan and Vegeta would look more in control and composed. They clearly were not. Piccolo even says the boys are the worlds only hope before fusion is even known as a possibility, and he's much stronger than Semi Perfect Cell at this point.

Sparring means jack shit if the gap is big enough. You think 18 could give either Gohan or Vegeta this kind of trouble in a spar? I doubt it. She is so far beneath them it's not even funny.

[White Oni]

Goku vs Tenshinhan was more of a sparring match in comparison to this. Goku was shown breathing easily throughout the event even when it looked like the fight was close. That symbolizes that Goku treated the event as a sparring match as he barely had any real damage or problems. He wasn't winded in the slightest nor showed difficulty fighting Tenshinhan.

Gohan and Vegeta on the other hand do not share that same trait. They look like they're having a rougher time. Vegeta had to punch Trunks as he couldn't keep avoiding him. If Trunks was 18 level, then Vegeta wouldn't have this issue at all with Trunks as 18 can't lay a hand on Semi Perfect Cell. Gohan's facial expressions show he's having a difficult time fending off Goten. He'd be smiling more or shown dodging Goten rather than all those worried expressions he has in each panel where he blocks Goten. No panel shows Gohan or Vegeta being in complete control.

Goku vs Tenshinhan isn't sparring... It's fighting, Goku outclassed Tenshinhan, so he wasn't winded or tired, because it wasn't the time for pushing himself, like one does when they spar. No, it was a time to warm up for the real fight.

Gohan I see as being winded and sweaty, because he was sparring, pushing his own body, not because Goten was pushing his body.

Vegeta and Trunks weren't sparring, Vegeta was playing a game with Trunks and threw a hissy fit when he lost.

You're missing the point. Goku wasn't even trying at all, and wasn't winded in the slightest. Gohan and Vegeta show they're having difficulty. If they weren't having any difficulty, then Gohan and Vegeta's composure would be more like Goku's who even when hit still wasn't winded. Gohan and Vegeta would look more in control and composed. They clearly were not. Piccolo even says the boys are the worlds only hope before fusion is even known as a possibility, and he's much stronger than Semi Perfect Cell at this point.

No, you're missing the point.

Goku wasn't winded or sweaty, because he wasn't training or sparring.

As another poster has mentioned, Professional boxers get sweaty and winded when they spar with first day fighters.

Ask yourself, why is this? Is it because the 2 fighters are on equal level? No, it's because the fighters push themselves, and use their partners interactions, and sometimes bodies, to exert themselves and improve muscle memory and technique.

Goku wasn't winded or sweaty against Tien, because he wasn't sparring/training, he was simply humoring Tien.

Vegeta was training for god knows how long, by himself, and was already tired, winded and sweaty, before even talking to Trunks.

Gohan was sweaty and winded, the same way, and for the same reasons, the pro fighter was against the first day fighter. Because sparring isn't about measuring yourself or an opponent. It's not about showing off your quickest jab, or your impressive reflexes, it's about repetition, pushing yourself, muscle memory, and technique honing.


As for Piccolo saying that the boys are earth's last hope, I can't believe anyone could possibly take that statement any way other than piccolo speaking to the boys POTENTIAL!, not their current level of skill.

He saw the boys as having FAR more potential than him, and may have been thinking about training them in the RoSaT.

Piccolo himself wasn't a candidate, because he knew his limits and that his potential was plateauing.

[dbzfan7]

You can't compare real life sparring to DBZ. The gap between a professional and noob human is not even close to the kind of gap Vegeta and 18 have. It's ridiculous to claim it's the same.

If power level wise
SSJ Gohan is 4,000,000,000
SSJ Goten is 350,000,000

Then Goten will never be touching Gohan or giving him trouble in the slightest. The gap between Tenshinhan and Goku is way smaller than that and Goku wasn't winded. Doesn't matter how serious the fight is as Goten would be moving very slow from Gohan's perspective. Gaps are what dictate how much of an easy or hard time someone has. If someone is ten times stronger, faster, and more durable, then sparring with someone 10 times weaker won't bring any good training. Hence why Gohan was a useless sparring partner for Goku til he went Super Saiyan. They could spar in base, but there wouldn't be much progress.

This is not the reaction Piccolo would have if they were just at a measly 18 level. Notice how Goku isn't highly impressed, but Piccolo is. Piccolo said they were the earth's best hope. If he were much stronger than he'd be the earth's best hope as Boo isn't going to just wait for Piccolo to train the boys to get strong.

Chapter: 473 (DBZ 279), P2.1-6
Context: after Goten and Trunks turn into Super Saiyans
Goku: “Alright! Now then, gather your ki up to your utmost limits. All the way full!”
Trunks: “Hehe…Alrii—iight. Let’s freak ‘em out, Goten.”
Goten: “Yeah…hihihi…”
*they power up*
Piccolo: “Gu…!”
Goku: “Alright, so that’s full?”
Goten: “Huh!?”
Trunks: “Ye-yeah…”

[RandomGuy96]

My point was, they were sparring, not fighting each other. Thus, Goten/Trunks being able to do well in a spar shouldn't be a measuring stick. It's a spar. The same way that guy in that video, who had one day of BJJ training was able to pull off feats over a BJJ legend, when that guy's level of skill was dimensions apart from that BJJ legend's.

Vegeta and Gohan were not at full power or had the mindset. If they were at full power and in bloodlust, Goten and Trunks wouldn't stand a ghost of a chance. They're not in the same league. And yet we're judging this from a sparring session?

An analogy, just because I appear tired from horsing around with my kiddie Nephews does not mean they're close to my level of skill.

Prove that they weren't at full power. Their demeanors, and the way Vegeta ended it, say otherwise.