Do "gags" count? Did they "happen"?

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo's beam reached the moon in like a second, and pretty much everyone can dodge both Piccolo's attacks and attacks that are faster. Plus, I'm pretty sure power scaling from Saiyan arc Goku's travel feat on Snakeway gets you FTL somewhere along the line.

Goku can't have crossed the 20,000 km from his landing site to the Turtle House and back as fast as he did in any way but teleporting. Everybody is convinced of this.

Light would cross that distance in 0.06 seconds.

We never actually see how fast that is. He's super duper fast relative to these other guys, who are also super duper fast, and seemingly faster than should be possible even with his level of power. That's it.

That'd also be a travelling speed feat, rather than a combat speed/reaction feat, like everyone being able to dodge each other's beams long after it was established that Piccolo's could reach the moon in a second. Though I wonder how fast Goku would be if you assumed his speed increases were linear with his power level (that seems to be the case, judging by the KK multipliers and Goku's comments on them), considering Goku at 8,000 was able to cross the 1,000,000 kilometer Snake Way in a day or so, and Goku by the end of the series is literally millions of times more powerful than he was back then.

[Rocketman]

That'd also be a travelling speed feat, rather than a combat speed/reaction feat

There is no difference.

[RandomGuy96]

That'd also be a travelling speed feat, rather than a combat speed/reaction feat

There is no difference.

There is. Just because someone has really fast reflexes and can make minor movements extremely quickly doesn't mean they can maintain that speed to clear a huge distance. There's also Goku dodging lasers and outrunning the Solar Flare as a kid, though those are probably just gags...

Also, assuming Goku traveled roughly the whole 1,000,000 km in that one day, he was travelling at 11.5 km/s. The speed of light is approximately 300,000 km/s. Now, granted, he wouldn't be travelling the whole road, as the 1,000,000 km length was including twists and turns. But even if he only traveled a fifth of the stated distance, he would still have to exceed the speed of light eventually if the speed to power level scaling is linear, and it is implied that it is. Probably at the Cell Games.

[Rocketman]

There is. Just because someone has really fast reflexes and can make minor movements extremely quickly doesn't mean they can maintain that speed to clear a huge distance.

It does when both actions draw from the same source.

Reaction and travel speed differ in the real world because humans use separate muscle groups for each. Your leg muscles are uninvolved in jerking your hand back from a hot stove, for example.

Goku doesn't use his muscles to move and react, he uses his ki. Ki is not specialised.

if the speed to power level scaling is linear, and it is implied that it is.

Apparently not, since he couldn't fly 20,000 km fast enough to not have teleported.

[RandomGuy96]

Apparently not, since he couldn't fly 20,000 km fast enough to not have teleported.

And how fast is "fast enough"? We're never told. But we are outright shown multiple light-speed or FTL attacks from relatively extremely slow and weak characters (Roshi's Kamehameha, Black's lasers, Tenshinhan's Solar Flare, Piccolo's moon-busting beam, etc.). And we're given numbers that we have reason to believe scale linearly with speed based on Goku saying the KK multiplies speed, plus a solid feat (the Snake Way travel) to build on.

It does when both actions draw from the same source.

Reaction and travel speed differ in the real world because humans use separate muscle groups for each. Your leg muscles are uninvolved in jerking your hand back from a hot stove, for example.

Goku doesn't use his muscles to move and react, he uses his ki. Ki is not specialised.

Actually, he does. Ki just boosts his natural physical attributes to insane levels. It doesn't suddenly mean he's not using separate muscle groups for separate tasks.

[Rocketman]

Actually, he does. Ki just boosts his natural physical attributes to insane levels. It doesn't suddenly mean he's not using separate muscle groups for separate tasks.

The boost so far outweighs muscular strength as to render it meaningless.

Does the electricity move through his nerves faster than light too?

[RandomGuy96]

Actually, he does. Ki just boosts his natural physical attributes to insane levels. It doesn't suddenly mean he's not using separate muscle groups for separate tasks.

The boost so far outweighs muscular strength as to render it meaningless.

Does the electricity move through his nerves faster than light too?

Then why does Goku keep training with weights? Ki is metaphysical, but obviously it has a weird relationship with one's muscles that doesn't involve all muscle groups becoming meaningless.

You may as well ask that same question for every flesh-and-blood FTL being in any work of fiction. Actually, I'm sure you have. But that doesn't change the fact that those flesh-and-blood beings are still clearly shown as (somehow) being that fast.

[xmysticgohanx]

That'd also be a travelling speed feat, rather than a combat speed/reaction feat

There is no difference.

It is a thing. It's just that many people use that as an excuse to say comic book characters aren't that fast. They think travel speed can be > reactions when in reality it's reaction speed >= travel speed

[Zephyr]

Here's a new one to discuss: Candy Vegetto.

The fact that he can talk defies every possible rule one might think exists. He has no vocal chords, he has no lungs, no mouth, etc.

Did that not happen? And if it did, we have to apply our own inductions as to how that would be consistent with the laws of nature in Dragon Ball, because nothing makes it apparent that Vegetto should be able to talk as a piece of candy.

[Kamiccolo9]

Here's a new one to discuss: Candy Vegetto.

The fact that he can talk defies every possible rule one might think exists. He has no vocal chords, he has no lungs, no mouth, etc.

Did that not happen? And if it did, we have to apply our own inductions as to how that would be consistent with the laws of nature in Dragon Ball, because nothing makes it apparent that Vegetto should be able to talk as a piece of candy.

Vegetto and Buu have a built-in excuse in that any gags performed by them can fall under "magic." You can reasonably explain these two characters by attributing their feats to Kaioshin and Buu magic.

[Zephyr]

Nobody that was turned into candy exhibited the ability to do that. No other Potara fusion gained "magical powers", with the exception of Old Kai. He fused with a witch though, so that makes sense.

[Kamiccolo9]

Nobody that was turned into candy exhibited the ability to do that. No other Potara fusion gained "magical powers", with the exception of Old Kai. He fused with a witch though, so that makes sense.

We only have one Potara fusion that was turned into candy, and he was able to react this way. Maybe Kibitoshin and the Old Kai could too. Comparing Vegetto to the other people turned into candy is pointless, since obviously something is different about him.

And we don't know anything about how Kibitoshin was affected anyway, so you can't really use him to discount the Potara bestowing magical effects.

[Zephyr]

So then would you argue that any gag that has an in-universe explanation counts as having happened?

[Kamiccolo9]

So then would you argue that any gag that has an in-universe explanation counts as having happened?

For gag characters that have an effect on the plot that cannot be ignored, and that have a legitimate in-universe explanation that doesn't violate the established rules of the series, then sure.

Although, given my previous definition of "gag moments," I'm not sure if I'd classify candy Vegetto as one. No one here is transcending the rules of the series, and these aren't short, never mentioned again outbursts of "gagginess." I'd classify this as "humorous," but not a gag.

[Zephyr]

To me it feels like they are transcending the rules of the series, more or less. People turned into candy are, well, candy now, and little more than that. This was consistent up until the Vegetto moment.

And the Potara fusion never is touted as granting magical abilities. You'd think they would mention that if it did. If it was remotely hinted at, then that would be one thing. But since it isn't, it's a complete anomaly.

But I'll agree that it does serve as an explanation to the gag, the act of doing which is more ideal to me than pretending it never actually happened.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

The way I see it, Vegetto was so much stronger than Boo that he could defy his magic. The whole point of their fight was to show how superior Vegetto was to Boo, and if Kaioshin magic was involved in this, it would have worked against Vegetto, since the atmosphere of Boo's body broke the Potara magic.

[RandomGuy96]

There is no logical reason that Vegetto's ki would have any impact on the effectiveness of Buu's magic. Or his ability to think and speak as a jawbreaker.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

There is no logical reason that Vegetto's ki would have any impact on the effectiveness of Buu's magic.

We have no idea how Boo's magic works.

Or his ability to think and speak as a jawbreaker.

That would be because of retarded result of magic.

[RandomGuy96]

We have no idea how Boo's magic works.

Is it magic? If it is, the amount of ki Vegetto has shouldn't matter.

That would be because of retarded result of magic.

It would only 'make sense' if it's magic countering magic. Vegetto being strong should NOT give him the ability to speak without... anything that would let him speak. Ki is never shown to work like that.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Is it magic? If it is, the amount of ki Vegetto has shouldn't matter.

Says who?