Hitiro wrote:freezamite wrote:Goku never suggested he couldn't beat Freezer? You mean that desperate Goku that was praying for the "I'm only using 50% of my power" to be a lie? Yes, as you say "the manga doesn't state clearly that Freezer is above the androids" but as you know from the times we've discussed there are also a ton of evidences that point towards that direction so it's more a matter of "who chooses to believe what" (although I of course consider that my stance is the one that respects more the manga but of course you will think the same of your own stance) than the "we know for a fact that" the author of this thread used in the OP.
You're using Goku pre-SSJ as a standing point to say that Goku suggested he couldn't beat Freeza? You realise I was talking about after Goku got SSJ. Right? After Goku got SSJ it was never suggested that he couldn't beat Freeza.
Maybe because Freezer was no longer a thread?
But when Krilin explains who's Cell to Goku, he says this:
"Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6
Kuririn: “Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?”
Goku: “…Both…”"
Which also implies that Freezer > any android seen until then (otherwise that statement wouldn't make any sense coming from krilin).
Hitiro wrote:freezamite wrote:All in all, going with the data we know:
20 > 19.
20 > Vegeta - Energy absorbed by 19 > 19 (beaten) + Energy absorbed from Vegeta.
Now there are two implications that complicate things a bit further:
19 loses energy, so we don't know how many energy he lost before he started absorbing Vegeta's.
19 has a limit (stated after he absorbs Goku's KameHame) so his strength can't increase past that concrete point (so we can't assume that Vegeta - 2x Energy absorbed by 19 > 19).
You're stating 19 has a limit as if it's fact. Where does it say that he can't increase his power further? The only comments I see on #19's absorption is that he has increased his power further. I don't see where it says he has reached his maximum.
Strength Checker wrote:Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P14.6
Context: after No.19 absorbs Goku’s attack
No.20: “Alright! No.19’s maximum power rating has greatly increased from what it was before! In contrast, Son Goku’s energy has fallen remarkably…!”
Chapter 343 (DBZ 149), P7.1
Context: when No.19 asks to fight Vegeta
No.20: “You’re so greedy…Even though you sucked so much energy out of Son Goku, and have raised your absolute power…”
^These are the only two statements in which his absorption was commented on. And neither imply a limit. In fact, these lines imply that #19 has increased his power limit.
True, in my version of the manga it says "#19 has reached his maximum power" but since we are going by Herm's translation (that seems to be more accurate than the one I have) I give this one to you.
But then, it's even easier for us to nail the difference in power between Vegeta and Piccolo as something small.
If #19 doesn't have a limit or it's limit wasn't reached after absorbing Goku's Kamehame we have that:
Vegeta - stolen energy > #19 - lost energy + stolen energy.
Vegeta - 2x stolen energy > #19 - lost energy during fight against Vegeta.
Considering that #19 tanked Vegeta's attacks pretty well (considering the fight was one sided in Vegeta's favour) even if Vegeta wasn't hitting with all his strength, stolen energy can't be higher than 15-20% of Vegeta's power.
And that was enough to put Vegeta below #20 in terms of power (this is why Vegeta doesn't attack him until he eats the senzu bean).
Hitiro wrote:freezamite wrote:But even considering that, Piccolo would have to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta since he trashed 20 like it wasn't even a thread to him, and the energy 19 could have absorbed can't be too big considering how "well" he tanked Vegeta's attacks (yes, Vegeta was playing with him, but I don't think the difference between 19 and SSJ Vegeta to be bigger than the one between Dodoria and Vegeta's 24.000 units of power).
Why does Piccolo need to be pretty close to SSJ Vegeta to trash #20? It honestly depends on how large a boost SSJ gives the Saiyan's. If you think it is only 10x then Piccolo could still be weaker than Vegeta by a margin of 2x and still destroy the Androids. For all we know SSJ Vegeta is 5x stronger than the base Androids and Piccolo is 2x stronger meaning SSJ Vegeta is still 2.5x stronger than Piccolo.
I don't think SSJ gives a concrete boost because the boost you get from turning into a SSJ depends on a lot of factors (including energy control which Vegeta lacks). We know that Goku had a 10x power up between the rage boost and the SSJ if we go by what Toriyama said, but that doesn't means SSJ equals a 10x power boost. In fact, I think it was more like a 2-3x boost over a sayan's base power (once it reached it's limits) which in the case of Goku translates to a 10x because he still hadn't reached the limit of his base state prior to the rage boost.
But discussing about abstract multipliers we can only theorize about is meaningless when we have solid facts directly from the manga.
SSJ Vegeta < #20 after killing #19.
And we know Piccolo > #20 for a fact as well.
Hitiro wrote:freezamite wrote:Of course Piccolo having a 50x increase in strength (in fact, if we go with the daizenshuu nonsense, then Piccolo would've had to multiply his strength by 150 at the very least) is wouldn't be my preferred explanation when it comes to explain those facts which further reinforces the fact that SSJ Vegeta isn't at around 300 million like a lot of people seem to believe but more in the lines of 3 millions of units or so.
Why does Piccolo need to multiply his strength by 150? Piccolo had already been training for a year before Goku arrived back on Earth. Are you saying he couldn't have gotten stronger in that year? Then again, if we assume that Piccolo got 3x stronger each year he would be at 27x stronger than his post 3 year training self which would be on the level of half a SSJ if we go by the Daizenshuu. The characters have received much larger gains in a year than that. So it is plausible I guess.
He could have gotten stronger but without the motivation to defeat a stronger enemy I doubt his power increased that much, let alone 3x in the same time the rest of the Z-fighters couldn't get themselves any stronger or at least substantially stronger.
It's possible, but Piccolo has to be much higher than 50% of a SSJ to defeat #20. In fact, I think that Piccolo already was at the same level of SSJ Trunks or Namek/Yadrat Goku SSJ at that time.