MistareFusion's Dragon Ball Dissection! (Updated 5/11/26!)

[Saiga]

I'm going to have to argue that Goku vs Chun was as obvious as Goku vs Tenshinhan, right from the first round. And I don't think waiting for the first round to be over makes it hugely different from Goku vs Piccolo in terms of obvious, or how the other characters aren't going to be relevant at all.

I do agree that the tournament format doesn't work for the rematch with Goku vs Piccolo, but that's more because it necessitated Piccolo and Goku being made way too strong to give a good reason for why the others didn't get involved (since it'd be a little too much to have them stay out of the entire fight just for the tournament rules).

I always felt the reason Piccolo didn't attack Goku there was extremely obvious - that fight was not close until Goku let his guard down and got a hole through his shoulder. Goku's not making that mistake twice. On top of that, the fact that Piccolo's seen everything Goku can do won't improve his odds much - basically the only thing he learned is how strong Goku is and that he can fly poorly. Piccolo mostly relied on using techniques and tricky abilities, while Goku responding to these and overcame them rather than responding with his own special moves. So Piccolo has shown everything he has, and Goku's found a way to beat all of it. He'd get ragdolled if they fought again.

[RandomGuy96]

Piccolo might actually do better on a rematch. When fighting hand to hand, he and Goku were completely even. Piccolo just repeatedly screwed himself over by acting like an idiot. Assuming he learns from his mistakes, he won't do shit like nail himself with his own attack, let Goku smack him around as a giant, and use up all of his energy on a flashy, inefficient, and useless shockwave technique. It's primarily for these reasons that Piccolo lost so decisively. Similarly, Goku would have died before Piccolo if no one else intervened, but that's only because he made the mistake of assuming Piccolo was dead when he was still very much alive and hostile.

[Kid Buu]

I think the first arc, and the Buu arc were best in terms of utilizing weaker characters, but I don't think the 23rd was the worst at this. The worst is probably the Baba arc, if that counts.

[TheGmGoken]

I think the first arc, and the Buu arc were best in terms of utilizing weaker characters, but I don't think the 23rd was the worst at this. The worst is probably the Baba arc, if that counts.

The Boo arc sucked at using weakers characters. If anything it was the Cell Arc that can be considered second or third(behind or in front of Freeza).

@Gaffer Tape
I'll reply later.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

So catching up on my end, I remember reading about Dragon Ball movie 3 years back and how amazing it sounded that Toei actually took three different arcs and compressed them together- I never got around to watching it but could only be convinced they'd screw it up. To hear that it might not only be the opposite, but near entirely the opposite, is astounding. I definitely have that much more reason to properly check out the Dragon Ball movies.

I never bought Piccolo Jr. as a villain; he's always been physically intimidating but I would disagree, the moment he opens his mouth he becomes a pale imitation of his dad. King Piccolo could ham it up because he was a giant with a precedent; that's NOT Junior's schtick, not one bit. Frankly, Junior's is better, he's all about the loneliness of being demon spawn born for revenge and growing up seeing humanity's worst, something we ended up getting almost nothing about in the series proper- merely that Gohan was a huge wake-up call for him.

Regarding the tournament structure- I agree that the best thing the arc has going for it is emphasizing for the first time how long the reader/viewer has gone on with these characters. But to me, that almost pedals it into the realm of the 28th tournament in the Buu arc- while Goku wants that title, the rest of it is converging mechanism for other points. Goku and Chichi, Kami and Piccolo, Goku and Piccolo. It's absolutely true that the moment you drop Piccolo into things you know the outcome, but to me feels like Toriyama almost caught whiff of that early enough on.

The 23rd tournament is a good example of how Dragon Ball could have evolved, not necessarily with just tournaments, obviously, but with a good balance between good and entertaining fights and whatnot that give screen time and development to characters with multiple purposes other than just "the strongest", and fights focused on "the strongest". This characteristic is not yet lost in the Saiyan arc given the roles that pretty much all cast had but on later Namek and after Namek it is pretty much lost.

Like so. Granted its far easier for someone as sporadic as Toriyama to begin with the end in mind with something like the linear filter of an elimination tournament, but look what he does with it!

[Gaffer Tape]

Completely disagree with it being pointless. They were all interesting and entertaining fights by themselves, and they were all used to develop and give screen time to the characters in it, which is all they need for being relevant and have a point.

That is precisely the trap that Dragon Ball later fell on. Its noticeable that Dragon Ball gradually started to focus just on the strongest guys around and it only gave screen time and any development to them. Because of this, the series loses a great deal of detail and some much needed "breather space" for fights and whatnot that don't focus just on THE STRONGEST, and characters that we enjoy seeing get stuck just being truly irrelevant extras.

See, while I agree with you in theory, I don't think this arc does a good job at all of achieving that. While I definitely want the "non-strongest" characters to have screen time (or panel time), screen time for the sake of screen time really isn't much better than not using them at all*. In some ways, it's worse. Because to me these don't feel enough like characters getting a chance to shine and develop. With the exception of Tenshinhan's fight against Goku, it feels more like getting them out of the way. As in, "Well, we need eight fighters, so they're here. But this is really exclusively about the Goku/Piccolo story. Goku and Chichi? Tenshinhan and Tao Pai Pai? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How cute. Moving on." The two things just don't mesh. If it was fully about the tournament, then it would have worked fine. But since it's not, it all feels superfluous.

*Also, this reminds me of the Cell arc. So many people seem to laud this as Dragon Ball getting into ensemble storytelling and giving other characters a chance to shine. But as far as I see it, it is sooooo not that. Yeah, characters other than Goku get to carry the story for awhile, but they never manage to accomplish anything. They do almost nothing but fail and run around like chickens with their heads cut off until Goku comes back and leads them in the right direction. So it's basically giving them screen time for the sake of giving them screen time.

[JulieYBM]

Much agreement regarding the Artificial Humans arc. As much as I love the cat-and-mouse games nothing is actually accomplished by any of the characters. Factor in Gohan's weird absence and character turn around and it definitely makes for the worst arc.

[rereboy]

See, while I agree with you in theory, I don't think this arc does a good job at all of achieving that. While I definitely want the "non-strongest" characters to have screen time (or panel time), screen time for the sake of screen time really isn't much better than not using them at all*. In some ways, it's worse. Because to me these don't feel enough like characters getting a chance to shine and develop. With the exception of Tenshinhan's fight against Goku, it feels more like getting them out of the way. As in, "Well, we need eight fighters, so they're here. But this is really exclusively about the Goku/Piccolo story. Goku and Chichi? Tenshinhan and Tao Pai Pai? Yeah, yeah, yeah. How cute. Moving on." The two things just don't mesh. If it was fully about the tournament, then it would have worked fine. But since it's not, it all feels superfluous.

*Also, this reminds me of the Cell arc. So many people seem to laud this as Dragon Ball getting into ensemble storytelling and giving other characters a chance to shine. But as far as I see it, it is sooooo not that. Yeah, characters other than Goku get to carry the story for awhile, but they never manage to accomplish anything. They do almost nothing but fail and run around like chickens with their heads cut off until Goku comes back and leads them in the right direction. So it's basically giving them screen time for the sake of giving them screen time.

To me, that just seems to me that you are saying that if a fighter isn't strong enough to measure up to the Big Bad or doesn't influence the result of the most important plot point, then he can't be relevant or interesting. I disagree with that.

Having them there but being useless and irrelevant is what happened in the Cell games. I agree with that. But that's not what happens at all in the 23rd tournament. In the 23rd tournament they had their own stuff going on and all had proper moments to really shine and be impressive and show their growth. They weren't irrelevant at all, imo. And even though their roles in the Cell games is borderline useless, its still better than not being there at all. The problem is that, by that time, the author had already fallen into the trap of pretty much giving up trying to balance the development and moments of relevance of all the cast like he did in the past and fallen into the narrative of THE STRONGEST being pretty much all the focus.

[Gaffer Tape]

To me, that just seems to me that you are saying that if a fighter isn't strong enough to measure up to the Big Bad or doesn't influence the result of the most important plot point, then he can't be relevant or interesting. I disagree with that.

That's not at all what I'm saying. And that's not what I said in the videos either. After re-reading my own post that you're quoting, I honestly have no idea how you're even getting that impression at all since it's pretty much the exact opposite of what I'm saying. Especially given how one of my primary points of critique in Dragon Ball Dissection is how well each arc uses its characters, it should be obvious that that's something that's very important to me. My problem is with how the STORY treats them. And I don't think it does them any justice in this arc. It treats them like afterthoughts. It's so focused on Goku/Piccolo that any attempt to give them relevance comes off as extremely rushed and inconsequential to the point that it's almost insulting to them.

Long story short, by all means I want Dragon Ball to give its characters moments of relevance and meaning. It drives me crazy when the series fails to do that. But the story has to be able to support that. If those two things are at odds with each other, then you might as well not even bother because then all you're doing is weakening the story and still only giving those characters some kind of token relevance that ultimately doesn't mean anything. A writer has to make the characters relevant to the story he's telling.

[ZazamPow]

My basic thoughts on why Piccolo left instead of starting the fight over again; he lost fair and square and knew it would be pointless to just do it again. Yes he could have adjusted his strategy in response to how the first fight went down, but wouldn't Goku have also? Goku proved himself superior once, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't have done it again. Piccolo was the one in the ring fighting, and if he came to the conclusion that he was unable to beat Goku at that time, then how can someone else question him? It's more of a problem with the Saiyan arc then the 23ed Budokai arc. Retreating to recuperate and fight another day makes sense, but instead Piccolo apparently spent five years sitting in a wasteland doing absolutely nothing.

[MarCas92]

Any Updates on this project?

[Gaffer Tape]

If there were, rest assured you'd find them here. As I said in the last video, I'm taking a break from this series to concentrate on other MistareFusion video projects.

[matt0044]

When it comes to the King Piccolo arc, I think it's good but the Anime's filler does it better. There, Tenshinhan actually tries the Mafuba... only to fail like Roshi. However, that's more than what the Manga let him do. In addition, Goku having to traverse a tundra and illusions to get to the Super Water thing was better than, well, having Karin just hand it over.

[MarCas92]

If there were, rest assured you'd find them here. As I said in the last video, I'm taking a break from this series to concentrate on other MistareFusion video projects.

I know your doing FF memories. Anything else?

[jcogginsa]

Regarding Piccolo and the Rules, i just assumed he was using them as a shield.

Goku can't go for a killing blow or he'll be disqualified, whereas Piccolo can try to kill him all he wants because he won't care if he's disqualified for killing Goku, because he'd already achieved his goal. When the tournament was over, Goku was no longer held back by the rules, plus all the others could now jump in. So it would make sense for Piccolo to flee at that point.

As to his personality, i think he was trying to imitate his dad during the 23rd budokai, whereas by the saiyan arc he had come into his own.

One way i think the arc could have been improved would have been to have Piccolo possess someone as Kami did. That way there could be a mystery of who was Piccolo.

If I may ask a question Gaffer: Do you think Piccolo Junior and King Piccolo are the same person(IE Piccolo Junior has all of King Piccolo's memories, is responsible for the king's actions, etc.), or distinct?

Side note: First post on the forum, Woot!

[Captain Space]

Discovered your channel a while ago, like your videos a lot (particularly the DB and Sentai ones), just got on this site and was like, "Oh, a thread discussing this series--

...by the guy himself. Huh. Cool."

I'd like to do a series something like this for Saint Seiya (given that it's another comparably-sprawling manga/anime franchise), but I lack the non-terrible recording equipment and speaking voice, so ah well.

[Mewzard]

If there were, rest assured you'd find them here. As I said in the last video, I'm taking a break from this series to concentrate on other MistareFusion video projects.

I fell behind on this at some point, so I'm about to start rewatching the Dissection from the beginning, which should be fun. Might as well catch up while you're on break (I suppose it was an appropriate place to take a break). I do love a good detailed analysis of series I enjoy.

Speaking of other projects, I'm rewatching your Mighty Morphin Zyuranger video, and it got me curious if you knew that Shout Factory put out Zyuranger on DVD (and if so, if you bought it). Watched all but the last disc so far on my set.

[Vegitofaxx]

What's the schedule for future DBD videos?

[Captain Space]

Speaking of other projects, I'm rewatching your Mighty Morphin Zyuranger video, and it got me curious if you knew that Shout Factory put out Zyuranger on DVD (and if so, if you bought it). Watched all but the last disc so far on my set.

How is it? I'm planning on getting to Zyuranger at some point in the future. (My main frames of reference for Sentai: Goranger, Sun Vulcan, Bioman. Sort of progressing chronologically, so I will get to the newer series' eventually.)

I ask because I haven't heard much about Zyuranger that's relative to other Sentai, rather than, say, comparing it to MMPR.

[Mewzard]

How is it? I'm planning on getting to Zyuranger at some point in the future. (My main frames of reference for Sentai: Goranger, Sun Vulcan, Bioman. Sort of progressing chronologically, so I will get to the newer series' eventually.)

I ask because I haven't heard much about Zyuranger that's relative to other Sentai, rather than, say, comparing it to MMPR.

Pretty good. All 50 episodes on ten discs (using Toei's DVD masters), plus a convention panel with Geki's actor. I prefer it over MMPR myself (Green with Evil's equivalent arc is especially good in Zyuranger, a lot more emotional).

But yeah, on the matter of DBD, do you think you might cover the recent specials/movies after you finish the manga? Would be interesting to see.