Why you really did not like Dragon Ball GT/parts of it

[fadeddreams5]

But that doesn't necessarily mean the show was the better for it. Goku was the focus of DB, and I think that's the best show of the three. Not necessarily because of that, but that proves my point. In Z, I like the Saiyan arc a lot, but while Goku was dead, he wasn't just in a pine box, he was training. In the Freeza arc he's also training, but the plot is progressing without him. I think Goku being on Namek the whole time is probably a better idea than just having Goku come in to save the day, especially since the final confrontation will come down to him and Freeza.

The thing is, in DB, Goku wasn't a powerhouse, so the adventure theme worked with him on the spotlight. By the end of the Piccolo arc, Goku is now the strongest being on the planet, and in Z he gets stronger and stronger. The genre itself changed from adventure to action because of this, and Toriyama kept Goku MIA exactly for the reason of having him stand out as the savior fans looked forward to seeing on the battlefield. Focus on him too much, and it's like what's the poin--actually, it's GT. It becomes GT. lol.

Compare Gohan and Krillin's adventure on Namek to Goku's adventures in GT. Gohan and Krillin were unbelievably outclassed by everything in site, and this restriction created a sense of urgency and tension that made the story very interesting. In GT, there is none of that, and if there is, it's incredibly contrived since we know Goku by all means can handle anything. Absolutely anything. In fact, the entire arc is contrived and makes no sense. Besides what I mentioned, Goku knows instant transmission, which he used to get to New Namek in the Cell saga. Secondly, the Kais have instantaneous movement and they owe Goku enough for a few roundtrips across the galaxy. And finally, dragon balls that blow up the planet after usage? What? -_-

He died so the Black star DBs wouldn't be used again. How's that contrived, unless you're referring to the BSDBs themselves.

Yeah, that's what I meant. See above.

The villains were as generic as you can get. The series simply suffered from a lack of heart
Baby stood out, and I liked him way more than Buu. GT has flaws, but lack of heart isn't one of them. Regarding your point that Pan is a sidekick no one asked for, perhaps I'm being overly literal, but who cares if they asked or didn't? Did anyone ask for any character or DB to begin with? Telling a story shouldn't come down to what the fans asked for, but what is best for the story.

Bebi was an excellent concept villain. A parasite created by the tuffles? Awesome. Him being as strong as he is makes sense, given his nature. That said, when I said the series had generic villains, I don't mean by origin or design. I mean in terms of personality. There's nothing that really stands out about any of them to me. Well, I guess Bebi is a tad unique, given his temper tantrums; really goes well with his name. Still, this is one character I really would have wanted Toriyama to flesh out and personally work with.

GT definitely lacks heart. It's entire purpose was to milk the series dry after the manga ended. The only thing with heart, as far as storytelling goes, was the ending. It was nice. Confusing, but nice. As for Pan, I mean... well, I don't know what I meant. I just don't understand why she got so much spotlight, I guess. It was like an attempt to attract a female audience or something...

[voltlunok]

Uub? Was he even in GT?

Yes. He also rejoined with Buu and became Majuub or was it Majin Uub...Can't remember. He even fought Baby for a bit, held his own some too. Thing is and I hear a lot of people say this against GT but I always kinda see the same thing in both DB and DBZ...if you think about it...Goku always saves the day. I don't get why the main character of the show having the spot light is such a deal breaker for some...It's...confusing.

Goku knows instant transmission, which he used to get to New Namek in the Cell saga. Secondly, the Kais have instantaneous movement and they owe Goku enough for a few roundtrips across the galaxy. And finally, dragon balls that blow up the planet after usage? What? -_-

Ok fair point, yeah they have instant movement where ever they please. Great! Cool! One problem...how do they know where to go? They can't sense the Black star balls. They don't know where they've landed. They wouldn't know that the 1 star ball was digitized and put into Dr. Myuu's head. So what good is instantaneous movement if you don't know where you're going?

[Rocketman]

Thing is and I hear a lot of people say this against GT but I always kinda see the same thing in both DB and DBZ...if you think about it...Goku always saves the day. I don't get why the main character of the show having the spot light is such a deal breaker for some...It's...confusing.

Because of two things.

1. "The hero saves the day" is worlds different from "the hero literally does everything". Nobody else in GT can even put up a fight - is there anything in GT to compare to Piccolo vs #17? Or the Budokai matches of DB?

2. Goku really doesn't save the day in Z, except for vs Freeza. He loses outright to Vegeta, Ginyu and #19 and has to be rescued by the others, he's unable to do anything vs the Androids, he gives up vs Cell, he's the entire cause of the day getting fucked up in the Buu arc and isn't able to beat Buu even after Buu's been depowered...it's a far cry from the "ok, losers, stay home, i got all dis" GT Goku does.

[fadeddreams5]

Ok fair point, yeah they have instant movement where ever they please. Great! Cool! One problem...how do they know where to go? They can't sense the Black star balls. They don't know where they've landed. They wouldn't know that the 1 star ball was digitized and put into Dr. Myuu's head. So what good is instantaneous movement if you don't know where you're going?

Well, I mean... they can, you know, do some trial and error with the dragon radar in hand. I'm sure going from planet to planet instantaneously is faster than using a spaceship. >.>

[Lord Beerus]

Thing is and I hear a lot of people say this against GT but I always kinda see the same thing in both DB and DBZ...if you think about it...Goku always saves the day. I don't get why the main character of the show having the spot light is such a deal breaker for some...It's...confusing.

Because of two things.

1. "The hero saves the day" is worlds different from "the hero literally does everything". Nobody else in GT can even put up a fight - is there anything in GT to compare to Piccolo vs #17? Or the Budokai matches of DB?

2. Goku really doesn't save the day in Z, except for vs Freeza. He loses outright to Vegeta, Ginyu and #19 and has to be rescued by the others, he's unable to do anything vs the Androids, he gives up vs Cell, he's the entire cause of the day getting fucked up in the Buu arc and isn't able to beat Buu even after Buu's been depowered...it's a far cry from the "ok, losers, stay home, i got all dis" GT Goku does.

You hit the nail right on the damn head, Rocketman. It flat out sucked if you were anyone other than Goku in GT. It was more offscreen moment of awesome for the supporting cast as supposed to onscreen moments of awesome that they would occasionally get in DB and in DBZ.

[voltlunok]

I'll give you Ginyu (But he did whoop 3 out of 5 Ginyu members.) and Vegeta but #19 is kinda iffy since Goku was suffering from the heart virus. I'm pretty darn sure if Goku didn't have it then he would have destroyed #19 with ease, stopped Gero and the Cell saga wouldn't have happened. Goku gave up against Cell to have Gohan fight and realize his potential but and this is just my opinion here. Gohan probably wouldn't have unleashed the energy needed to kill Cell without that push from his dad. So in a way...Goku saved the day there. Buu saga still kinda ended with Goku saved the day. So just in DBZ Goku is batting even here but with personal opinions he is batting 3-2 in regards to main villain.

I honestly think the 'Goku Time' thing is heavily and greatly over exaggerated by people who aren't Goku fans. I understand this. Not saying they're wrong but like I've said I think twice now in this thread. I'm watching GT again with a friend. I'm not really seeing 'Goku time' I'm seeing Dragon Ball. That's just my opinion though.

[ABED]

The genre itself changed from adventure to action because of this, and Toriyama kept Goku MIA exactly for the reason of having him stand out as the savior fans looked forward to seeing on the battlefield. Focus on him too much, and it's like what's the poin--actually, it's GT. It becomes GT. lol.

I don't agree with this, there's little difference between Goku in DB and Goku in Z. He's always been the big gun. They were always waiting for Goku to save them, the big difference is that at least with the story following Goku in DB, it didn't feel as much like the audience were waiting for Goku to get there. We were already there, we were only waiting for the inevitable clash with the big bad. DB also gave us plenty of time with the secondary characters. In Z, we spend time with them and that's great but there's no reason Goku has to constantly be on the sidelines just so they can get focus as well. It's like when JL takes Superman out of action to create tension. That's fine every now and then, but too often and it becomes repetitive. It's one of the reasons subsequent seasons of Justice League were better than season 1. In the Vegeta arc, Goku was the big gun, but Gohan and Kuririn still contributed to that battle, and there's nothing storywise or powerwise stopping that from happening in the rest of Z or GT.

2. Goku really doesn't save the day in Z, except for vs Freeza. He loses outright to Vegeta, Ginyu and #19 and has to be rescued by the others, he's unable to do anything vs the Androids, he gives up vs Cell, he's the entire cause of the day getting fucked up in the Buu arc and isn't able to beat Buu even after Buu's been depowered...it's a far cry from the "ok, losers, stay home, i got all dis" GT Goku does.

He doesn't lack the power against 19, he was ill. Against Vegeta, he still is important to the fight and the same with Ginyu. He's not the ENTIRE cause of the Buu arc. It's like the stupid Man of Steel argument. Even neglecting the retcon, Vegeta is also culpable, not to mention Buu and Babidi!

Bebi was an excellent concept villain. A parasite created by the tuffles? Awesome. Him being as strong as he is makes sense, given his nature. That said, when I said the series had generic villains, I don't mean by origin or design. I mean in terms of personality. There's nothing that really stands out about any of them to me. Well, I guess Bebi is a tad unique, given his temper tantrums; really goes well with his name. Still, this is one character I really would have wanted Toriyama to flesh out and personally work with.

What more is there to flesh out about him? We know what's driving him.

GT definitely lacks heart. It's entire purpose was to milk the series dry after the manga ended. The only thing with heart, as far as storytelling goes, was the ending. It was nice. Confusing, but nice. As for Pan, I mean... well, I don't know what I meant. I just don't understand why she got so much spotlight, I guess. It was like an attempt to attract a female audience or something...

How does that preclude heart? Toriyama was an artist for the money. Yeah he enjoyed it, but he admitted he did it for the money, and why is money anathema to heart? It's not even what I was getting at, I mean there are very sweet moments between the characters and I'm not just talking about the ending, which is a better ending than Toriyama's. The relationship between Goku and Pan is very sweet. Is giving the spotlight to a female character in order to attract a female audience a bad thing?

Well, I mean... they can, you know, do some trial and error with the dragon radar in hand. I'm sure going from planet to planet instantaneously is faster than using a spaceship. >.>

What about the environment? Goku needs to know what he's getting into or he could end up in a place where he can't breath.

And finally, dragon balls that blow up the planet after usage? What? -_-

It's magic. It makes as much sense as the writers claim. If you can buy magic balls that can bring the dead back to life, but can't kill someone like the Saiyans just because they're strong, your issue with GT's logic seems rather arbitrary.

[Rocketman]

So in a way...Goku saved the day there.

But if it happened in GT, Cell would crush Gohan instantly, then Goku would jump back in and punch Cell across the planet and kill him in base.

[voltlunok]

So in a way...Goku saved the day there.

But if it happened in GT, Cell would crush Gohan instantly, then Goku would jump back in and punch Cell across the planet and kill him in base.

I disagree. Gohan still killed Cell, but he needed a push. He wasn't a killer like Vegeta or a fighter through and through like Goku. He was Gohan, the soon to be scholar.

In every season they show Gohan lax on his training, everytime peace comes around Gohan stops training. Goku doesn't. He always trains, non stop sometimes. So yeah...he is gonna be super strong compared to his son. Like I said, I'm watching GT, I don't see 'goku time' I see dragon ball.

[DarkPrince_92]

My only real problem was that, Goku was the star again. I like Goku, but he carried the team...the whole time. Other characters got power ups, Majuub, SSJ4 Vegeta, whatever... but in the end, they came up short anyway. Oh... and Vegeta's hair.

Piccolo died. The only rational thinking character in the series... but he did brake the "Dragon Ball characters never stay dead..." stereotype.


Anyway, too late to get my thoughts together properly. Long story short, GT had a lot of interesting elements I appreciated, but it didn't hold up for me. It was actually really boring at times. Even during the action.

[fadeddreams5]

What more is there to flesh out about him? We know what's driving him.

I meant to write "rework." As in, same origin and design, but Toriyama's version of the character as far as everything else is concerned.

How does that preclude heart? Toriyama was an artist for the money. Yeah he enjoyed it, but he admitted he did it for the money, and why is money anathema to heart? It's not even what I was getting at, I mean there are very sweet moments between the characters and I'm not just talking about the ending, which is a better ending than Toriyama's. The relationship between Goku and Pan is very sweet. Is giving the spotlight to a female character in order to attract a female audience a bad thing?

When I say it lacks heart, I mean it feels incredibly uninspired and hollow compared to what it's trying to emulate. I understand Toriyama works for money because, well, who doesn't, but to quote him and an interviewer:

"What about the drive that enabled you to continue the serialization for so long?"
"That’s truly because of the response from everyone who enjoyed reading it, and because it was worth doing. That’s not just lip service; I really mean it."

Up to you to believe that statement, but I sense sincerity, and when I read DB, I can tell this man really just wanted to make a fun experience for everyone. Nothing profound, but an enjoyable ride for the sake of entertainment, which he always tried to keep fresh, no matter what. When I look at GT, I don't see this. I imagine a bunch of suits in an organization having a meeting and coming up with ideas on the whim solely for the money. Turning Goku into a child? Uub getting shafted? Pan getting this central role? Super 17? It's not the logic that bothers me, but the blatant reasoning behind the implementation (or lack thereof). Kid Goku = Let's go back to DB roots! Pan = Attract female audience! Uub getting shafted = not popular enough. Goku getting the spotlight = this is what the market demands! Super 17 = ...uhh...we have to follow the pattern of having the 2nd saga revolve around the RRA???

This is just how I see it.

What about the environment? Goku needs to know what he's getting into or he could end up in a place where he can't breath.

Shouldn't the Supreme Kai be able to see or tell? Or hell, why not just go with Mr.Buu instead of Goku? That'd actually be funny, given their background. lol.

It's magic. It makes as much sense as the writers claim. If you can buy magic balls that can bring the dead back to life, but can't kill someone like the Saiyans just because they're strong, your issue with GT's logic seems rather arbitrary.

It's not the logic that bother me here either. I wouldn't question the logic of a series filled with magic, aliens, demons, gods, dinosaurs, robots, and so on. Here, it's the contrived storytelling that gets me. "Someone wished on these dragon balls that were never heard of until now. Now your planet will blow up unless you get them all, so better get ready for ADVENTURRERERere!!! No form of teleportation allowed! Tee hee." Doesn't this sound kind of... stupid? Come on. lol. Just a really cheap way of setting up an arc. You know what would be better? If they combined this premise with the Shadow Dragon arc. Bare with me, as I'm making this up on the whim: Pilaf gathers the regular dragon balls, evil Shenron emerges, he splits into the shadow dragons, and they scatter throughout the universe. Now Goku and co have to defeat them and regather the dragon balls, not because their planet will blow up, but because they feel responsible for the havoc the dragons are wreaking across the universe. Sure, Goku can just instant transmission, but other characters (e.g.Vegeta) would want their shot at the dragons, and would also want to go on an adventure for the first time in a decade, so they wouldn't let him. Simple.

[Rocketman]

In every season they show Gohan lax on his training, everytime peace comes around Gohan stops training. Goku doesn't. He always trains, non stop sometimes. So yeah...he is gonna be super strong compared to his son. Like I said, I'm watching GT, I don't see 'goku time' I see dragon ball.

GT says Gohan didn't slack off this time.

[voltlunok]

In every season they show Gohan lax on his training, everytime peace comes around Gohan stops training. Goku doesn't. He always trains, non stop sometimes. So yeah...he is gonna be super strong compared to his son. Like I said, I'm watching GT, I don't see 'goku time' I see dragon ball.

GT says Gohan didn't slack off this time.

Yes it did. It clearly shows he stopped training. He's thinned up, plus I doubt he had a lot of time to train between raising Pan and work as it's clear he has a job now. Gohan slacked off, It's clear he did too. If you're a Gohan fan then yeah I can understand your being upset that he didn't do much in GT. But it was in character, whenever peace happens, he stops training as hard as his dad. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. Just that the thing against Goku in GT is over exaggerated in my opinion. That's all it is too, an opinion. You have your own and I have mine.

[ABED]

Turning Goku into a child? Uub getting shafted? Pan getting this central role? Super 17? It's not the logic that bothers me, but the blatant reasoning behind the implementation (or lack thereof). Kid Goku = Let's go back to DB roots! Pan = Attract female audience! Uub getting shafted = not popular enough. Goku getting the spotlight = this is what the market demands! Super 17 = ...uhh...we have to follow the pattern of having the 2nd saga revolve around the RRA???

Why do people keep bringing up Uub? Is he really that great a character? We met him at the VERY end of DB, so I don't really care that he got the shaft. I care more about the central characters we've known longer. Who cares why Pan was added? It could've been on a whim for all I care, all that matters is the execution. I'll grant you that she's not among my favorites, but that's a different issue. Goku wasn't turned into a child. He has a child's body, and that's it. The second arc in DB and DBZ weren't the RRA. Goku has always gotten the spotlight, being the main character and all.

It's not the logic that bother me here either. I wouldn't question the logic of a series filled with magic, aliens, demons, gods, dinosaurs, robots, and so on. Here, it's the contrived storytelling that gets me.

Semantics. Saying you feel it's contrived means you are questioning the logic.

The Monday morning quarterbacking is not bad, but ticking clock adds a sense of urgency. Why in your scenario would Goku feel responsible for something Pilaf did?

http://www.oocities.org/televisioncity/ ... bgtfaq.htm
Q: Why was Gokuu turned into a child?
A: The scriptwriters felt that it would be too hard to do anything with the adult Gokuu after he defeated Majin Buu. Further, the show has always revolved around Gokuu's growing stronger. So, the writers decided to make him a child again, and take away his teleport ability. Even so, Gokuu is still Gokuu, and as the fight with Baby shows, he is still very strong.

Q: Why were Gokuu, Trunks, and Pan selected as the main members?
A: Gokuu was a given. Pan was the second choice because she's the granddaughter of Mr. Satan and Gokuu, and had growth potential. The third person could have been anyone. Trunks was decided on to add balance, and because he could operate the ship. He also has Vejiita's power and is Bulma's child (giving him a clear head.)

Up to you to believe that statement,

I do believe it, but he's gone on the record as saying he got into it to make money. It's my dream that we live in a world where people didn't look down on "making money" as a primary driving force as something impure.

[Dbzk1999]

In every season they show Gohan lax on his training, everytime peace comes around Gohan stops training. Goku doesn't. He always trains, non stop sometimes. So yeah...he is gonna be super strong compared to his son. Like I said, I'm watching GT, I don't see 'goku time' I see dragon ball.

GT says Gohan didn't slack off this time.

Yes it did. It clearly shows he stopped training. He's thinned up, plus I doubt he had a lot of time to train between raising Pan and work as it's clear he has a job now. Gohan slacked off, It's clear he did too. If you're a Gohan fan then yeah I can understand your being upset that he didn't do much in GT. But it was in character, whenever peace happens, he stops training as hard as his dad. I'm not trying to say you're wrong. Just that the thing against Goku in GT is over exaggerated in my opinion. That's all it is too, an opinion. You have your own and I have mine.

Their talking about the gt perfect files
Which states that gohan continued his training

[fadeddreams5]

Why do people keep bringing up Uub? Is he really that great a character? We met him at the VERY end of DB, so I don't really care that he got the shaft. I care more about the central characters we've known longer. Who cares why Pan was added? It could've been on a whim for all I care, all that matters is the execution. I'll grant you that she's not among my favorites, but that's a different issue. Goku wasn't turned into a child. He has a child's body, and that's it. The second arc in DB and DBZ weren't the RRA. Goku has always gotten the spotlight, being the main character and all.

That's exactly why people bring him up. This is Goku's protege and the reason he left his family at the end of DBZ, yet they did not attempt to develop his character or allow people to care about him. This all stems from the writing, and applies to most characters in GT, but I mentioned this already. Goku always had the spotlight before, but other characters were better utilized and occasionally outshone him.

As for Pan and Kid Goku, there's no reason to care why they were added, but when you look at it from an outsider perspective, it just seems sleazy and/or lazy (Kid Goku, anyways). Again, that's just me.

The way I see DB, it's divided into 3 sagas that each end with a tournament. Pilaf > Jackie Chun tournament. RRA > Tien tournament. King Piccolo > Piccolo jr tournament. In DBZ, there's no tournaments, but it's still divided into three major sagas that contain several arcs. Saiyan > Namek > Frieza. Trunks > Androids > Cell > Cell Games. Saiyaman > Babidi > Majin Buu > Fusion > Kid Buu. The 2nd sagas involved the RRA for both. In GT, it's BsDB > Bebi. Super 17. Shadow Dragons. >.>

Semantics. Saying you feel it's contrived means you are questioning the logic.

No, it means I think it's obviously forced for the sake of creating an adventure element. Logically speaking, it makes sense in the context of the show.

Why in your scenario would Goku feel responsible for something Pilaf did?

Shadow dragon negative energy thing.

http://www.oocities.org/televisioncity/ ... bgtfaq.htm
Q: Why was Gokuu turned into a child?
A: The scriptwriters felt that it would be too hard to do anything with the adult Gokuu after he defeated Majin Buu. Further, the show has always revolved around Gokuu's growing stronger. So, the writers decided to make him a child again, and take away his teleport ability. Even so, Gokuu is still Gokuu, and as the fight with Baby shows, he is still very strong.

Oh wait, he doesn't have his teleportation when he turns into a kid? O_O Either it's been to long, or I never realized.

It's my dream that we live in a world where people didn't look down on "making money" as a primary driving force as something impure.

I don't look down on making money as a primary driving force. If I create something like a manga, show, book, or game, the amount of money the franchise makes reflects the number of people who have been exposed to it. Naturally, I would want many people to read, watch or play whatever it is I create, with or without a team, as long as I'm proud of my work.

However, when things in the artistic medium are created solely for money, well, it's pretty evident. I don't look down on the people who decided to cash in on the franchise while it was on its last breath; they're business men! It's just blatantly obvious this is why GT was created, and it shows. That's all I'm saying.

[ABED]

I see no reason why people should care more about Uub than Pan. Why again are you guys so outraged about a character that was only introduced at the tail end of the series? I get why you don't like that some other characters we do already know were slighted but not him. So because Toriyama wrote an ending where Goku leaves his family, we have to compound the problem by continuing with that character? There's nothing interesting about him other than him being strong. With Pan, there's a familial bond that Uub just doesn't have. Plus in some ways, it helps make up for Goku leaving to be with Uub. I just don't see anything being interesting about his character. I genuinely like Pan. She's bratty but she has spunk, like Bulma, and the stuff between her and Goku, Trunks, and Giru is sweet. I'm fond of the scene where Goku turns SS4 after remembering the events in a picture of his family going to the beach. You wouldn't get that with Uub.

As for Pan and Kid Goku, there's no reason to care why they were added, but when you look at it from an outsider perspective, it just seems sleazy and/or lazy

Sleazy? I don't know what you mean by that or why there's no reason to care why they were added. At least you wrote that maybe it's just you. And what's lazy about adding Pan?

The way I see DB, it's divided into 3 sagas that each end with a tournament.

The sagas or arcs are story arcs. The tournaments aren't the climaxes of each of those stories. The 21st Budokai isn't the climax of the Pilaf arc and the end of the Red Ribbon Army is the end of that arc, not the 22nd tournament. The Saiyan/Vegeta arc and Freeza arc are two separate arcs.

Shadow dragon negative energy thing.

you didn't answer the question. Why would the Z team feel guilt because Pilaf screwed up?

That's all I'm saying.

But that's not why it's bad. You can still make things primarily for money and be good. You can also do things for the fans and be crappy because it's clear you don't really have your heart in your work. Look at the final few volumes of the Buu arc, it's rushed and feels like Toriyama just wants to get it over with. Why does it matter what the motives are, the quality is what matters.

No, it means I think it's obviously forced for the sake of creating an adventure element. Logically speaking, it makes sense in the context of the show.

I'll comp to the creation of the BSDB's being wonky, but I like the ticking clock and enjoy the adventure. Some hate the early episodes, but I think they're a fun throwback. It's like a palate cleanser instead of just jumping right into another fight.

[fadeddreams5]

I see no reason why people should care more about Uub than Pan. Why again are you guys so outraged about a character that was only introduced at the tail end of the series? I get why you don't like that some other characters we do already know were slighted but not him. So because Toriyama wrote an ending where Goku leaves his family, we have to compound the problem by continuing with that character? There's nothing interesting about him other than him being strong. With Pan, there's a familial bond that Uub just doesn't have. Plus in some ways, it helps make up for Goku leaving to be with Uub. I just don't see anything being interesting about his character. I genuinely like Pan. She's bratty but she has spunk, like Bulma, and the stuff between her and Goku, Trunks, and Giru is sweet. I'm fond of the scene where Goku turns SS4 after remembering the events in a picture of his family going to the beach. You wouldn't get that with Uub.

Put it simply, people wanted to be able to care about that character. The series they loved ended with him, so they had this expectation they would make him into an interesting character. From the get-go, of course nobody gives a crap about him.

Also note, I wouldn't want Pan to get the shaft either. I just always found it weird that she had more of a central role than everyone except Goku.

And what's lazy about adding Pan?

Was referring primarily to Kid Goku there.

you didn't answer the question. Why would the Z team feel guilt because Pilaf screwed up?

They're guilty because they essentially created the dragons that are wreaking havoc across the universe. Pilaf would merely be a catalyst who summons the dragon the one time he shouldn't have, but it's not only his fault.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Thing is and I hear a lot of people say this against GT but I always kinda see the same thing in both DB and DBZ...if you think about it...Goku always saves the day. I don't get why the main character of the show having the spot light is such a deal breaker for some...It's...confusing.

Because of two things.

1. "The hero saves the day" is worlds different from "the hero literally does everything". Nobody else in GT can even put up a fight - is there anything in GT to compare to Piccolo vs #17? Or the Budokai matches of DB?

2. Goku really doesn't save the day in Z, except for vs Freeza. He loses outright to Vegeta, Ginyu and #19 and has to be rescued by the others, he's unable to do anything vs the Androids, he gives up vs Cell, he's the entire cause of the day getting fucked up in the Buu arc and isn't able to beat Buu even after Buu's been depowered...it's a far cry from the "ok, losers, stay home, i got all dis" GT Goku does.

Goku actually gets his ass kicked in most of his fights (he even got rescued by Trunks once), and all of the main villains are defeated with help from others. Base Goku only defeats joke villains on his own.

[NeoKING]

Battle of Gods Toriyama confirms that base Goku>everything tbh.