Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

[Kaboom]

Here's the way I've started to put it...

Most fighters out there can only control the amount of power they use.

The Earthlings and other more skilled fighters can control the amount of power they have.

[RandomGuy96]

ANYWAY

Just as a quick review of what I said earlier when the thread was on-topic:

-SS Trunks was probably not much stronger than Namek Goku, if he was at all.

-Sick Goku easily beats down initial 19.

-Energized 19 easily beats down sick Goku.

-Energized 19 is shown to be much stronger than energized 20.

-Energized 19 is, according to Vegeta, still too weak to curb-stomp Trunks. In other words:

Initial 19 < Initial 20 < energized 20 =< sick SS Goku < Namek SS Goku =< Mecha arc SS Trunks < energized 19 < a level that can curb-stomp Mecha arc SS Trunks

This seems to imply that the initial androids really weren't that strong.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

^Where does Freeza end up?

[RandomGuy96]

^Where does Freeza end up?

I'd probably put him above sick Goku and energized 20 while still being below Piccolo, but I was simply illustrating the chain as presented in the manga without throwing in some of my own assumptions. In terms of clear statements, the manga states 20 is stronger than 19, indirectly states that 19 can't curb-stomp Mecha arc SS Trunks (but is still stronger), and heavily implies SS Trunks in the Mecha arc isn't much stronger than SS Goku on Namek. From there, things are a bit more ambiguous, but I think it all fits together easy enough regardless.

[freezamite]

This statement would make sense seeing as Goku never had a chance to fight Androids 17 or 18. So Kuririn couldn't compare Cell to something Goku had never fought.

Look, Goku knew pretty well how strong those androids were AND YOU EVEN PUT WHAT GOKU SAID ABOUT THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY THEY WERE SUPERIOR TO FREEZER. Don't you see the contradictions on what you're defending here?
First you said that "Goku's words confirm that the androids were stronger than Freezer because...." and then, in a later stage, you say that the way Krilin expressed himself was because "Goku hadn't fight the androids so he couldn't possibly know how terrible they were so that's why he used Freezer as a comparison".

Or Goku didn't knew anything about the androids (which is false, Goku knew how strong those androids were) or he knew, and Krilin still felt that it was Cell who could potentially overcome Freezer and not the rest of the androids.

I'm not sure how it's easy to nail the difference in power between Vegeta and Piccolo. We don't know where #19 was in power pre-Goku fight. We also don't know how much energy Goku gave him. For all we know Vegeta could still be vastly superior to 19 and Vegeta let him absorb 40% of his energy before he finished off #19 with the rest of his remaining energy. All we can do in this scenario is make a lot of assumptions. Also, what do you mean by 2x stolen energy? I don't recall Vegeta's energy being stolen by #19 more than the one time.

But you have to be coherent with what happens in the manga. I mean, yes, if #19 had only 10% of Vegeta's power and he absorbed 40% of Vegeta's power then that would put #19 at 50% Vegeta's power vs Vegeta who would still have 60% of his power.
But if we go with those numbers then:
1. How could #19 resist so many attacks from Vegeta? A difference that big has always resulted in one hit kills in DB, and even if Vegeta wasn't going all out against the android he surely wasn't restraining his power at all, he only restrained the strength of his punches.
2. Another fact is that even if we assume that #19 strength when he started to absorb Vegeta's energy was 0 (and it's obvious it wasn't 0) the maximum amount he could've absorbed is 50%, as surpassing that number would have put him above Vegeta in terms of strength.

Vegeta was below #20 after #19 absorbed his energy, that's a fact. And seeing how #19 performed against Vegeta, even if he was restraining the strength of his punches and "playing" with the android, I can't think of him being -proportionally speaking- weaker in relation to SSJ Vegeta than Dodoria was to Vegeta when arrived at Namek.

What Toriyama said was that he drew Goku with 10x as much power as he had at the time. Seeing as Goku at the time was using his Kaioken x10 almost religiously up to trying to defeat Freeza with a Kaioken x20. Then we could go and say that Toriyama drew Goku 10x stronger then his Kaioken x10. In your last post you put Vegeta at 300,000 and his SSJ took him to 3 million? But then Piccolo would be stronger than Vegeta. Right? Because Piccolo was already over a million to fight against Freeza's second form. And in the 3 years of training are you saying that Piccolo barely increased his battle power? When Piccolo is probably the character with the biggest gains in story apart from maybe Goku and Gohan?

Look, that's not what Toriyama said and you know it because we've discussed about that quote dozens of times.
Toriyama says this:

At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then.

This is not a puzzle, it's an interview, and if Toriyama says "it wasn't 50, it was 10" and those 50 are in relation to the base power Goku had, it's obvious that the 10 are also in relation to the base power Goku had.
It's obvious that putting KKx10 on here to say "Toriyama said it was 10 times the strength he had already multiplied by 10 thanks to the KK" is just another excuse to accommodate reality to your stance instead of accommodating your stance to reality.

Piccolo is one of the characters with the most significant gains in the manga so 3x should be nothing for him.

Piccolo's extravagant gains are also justified by extravagant situations, like him fusing nail and him being only a half-being. But when it came to training he always powered up as much as the rest of the cast (except for the sayans when they abuse the zenkay power).

[Hugo Boss]

Energized 19 is, according to Vegeta, still too weak to curb-stomp Trunks.

Where is it implied?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

^By Vegeta saying the Androids weren't as bad as Trunks made them out to be.

[Hitiro]

Look, Goku knew pretty well how strong those androids were AND YOU EVEN PUT WHAT GOKU SAID ABOUT THEM AS AN EXAMPLE OF WHY THEY WERE SUPERIOR TO FREEZER. Don't you see the contradictions on what you're defending here?
First you said that "Goku's words confirm that the androids were stronger than Freezer because...." and then, in a later stage, you say that the way Krilin expressed himself was because "Goku hadn't fight the androids so he couldn't possibly know how terrible they were so that's why he used Freezer as a comparison".

No, Goku didn't know how strong the Androids were. How could he possibly know how strong they are without fighting them? That's like me comparing a leg of lamb to a steak in tastiness without ever having tasted a steak. I can't possibly do that. How is what I said a contradiction here? Goku knows that the Androids are stronger than Freeza. But he can't use them as a comparison if he's never fought them. He doesn't know how much more terrible they are in comparison to Freeza. All he knows is they are superior. Not by how much. For all Goku knows the Androids could be 10% stronger than Freeza or they could be 1000x stronger than Freeza. He can't judge Cell based on Androids he has neither fought or sensed. But he can surely compare Cell to Freeza and say. Well, I've sensed Cell when he thought Piccolo. He's 30x stronger than Freeza. For example.

Or Goku didn't knew anything about the androids (which is false, Goku knew how strong those androids were) or he knew, and Krilin still felt that it was Cell who could potentially overcome Freezer and not the rest of the androids.

Except that when Kuririn asked him this question all Goku knew about the Androids was that they can beat SSJ's. He didn't know how strong they were. Whereas with Cell, Goku could sense his Ki and he knew Piccolo could fight him. It is only in the later chapters that we know how strong #17 is because Piccolo was having an even fight with him. Therefore Goku could probably used #17 as a comparison for how terrible Cell is at that moment. Prior to this though Goku could only make assumptions on how strong the Androids really were. Same goes for Kuririn and the rest of the gang. They knew the Androids were stronger than the SSJ's. But not by how much. So why use the Androids as a measuring stick when you don't know what you're measuring? Given that Cell went off to power-up so he could take #17 you could say that Cell wasn't confident he could absorb #17 the way he was then. So #17 could be more terrible than him in this regard until he powers-up.

But you have to be coherent with what happens in the manga. I mean, yes, if #19 had only 10% of Vegeta's power and he absorbed 40% of Vegeta's power then that would put #19 at 50% Vegeta's power vs Vegeta who would still have 60% of his power.
But if we go with those numbers then:
1. How could #19 resist so many attacks from Vegeta? A difference that big has always resulted in one hit kills in DB, and even if Vegeta wasn't going all out against the android he surely wasn't restraining his power at all, he only restrained the strength of his punches.
2. Another fact is that even if we assume that #19 strength when he started to absorb Vegeta's energy was 0 (and it's obvious it wasn't 0) the maximum amount he could've absorbed is 50%, as surpassing that number would have put him above Vegeta in terms of strength.

1. Not everything needs Ki to be durable. Look at the door that Tenshinhan and Kuririn were trying to kick open but to no avail. Did that door have Ki superior to them? Not really. It was just made out of a durable material. #19 could have resisted Vegeta's attacks because Dr. Gero made #19 durable enough to survive a beating from a SSJ. It doesn't have to be about his Ki level being close to Vegeta's.
2. Correct. What he absorbed from Goku obviously plays a factor in how much he absorbed from Vegeta. But we don't know how strong sick Goku was in comparison to Vegeta. What we do know is both of them could take down #19.

Vegeta was below #20 after #19 absorbed his energy, that's a fact. And seeing how #19 performed against Vegeta, even if he was restraining the strength of his punches and "playing" with the android, I can't think of him being -proportionally speaking- weaker in relation to SSJ Vegeta than Dodoria was to Vegeta when arrived at Namek.

Why exactly? Raditz was at least 3x stronger than both Goku and Piccolo yet Goku took several hits from Raditz and didn't die. Raditz was also holding back. All we can do is just assume things. But it isn't like Vegeta being vastly superior isn't possible.

Look, that's not what Toriyama said and you know it because we've discussed about that quote dozens of times.
Toriyama says this:

At the time, it was made out that he was fifty times as strong when he became Super Saiyan, but that's a little extravagant. As far as my feelings as an author go, I think I drew it with the sense of it being a change of about ten times what he had been up until then.

And you're saying that "what he had been up until then" can't possibly include Goku while using Kaioken? Because I should point out to you that this interview took place almost 20 years after the chapters with Goku using Kaioken x10 and x20. Even in the Daizenshuu 6 Toriyama states Goku received a massive power-up.

Then, when I came up with the idea of the Super Saiyan, in order to show that Goku had gained a massive power-up all at once, I thought “there’s no choice but to change his form, too”.

If Goku maintained his original strength of the Kaioken x10 then how is that really a massive power-up? He would just be as strong as he was.

This is not a puzzle, it's an interview, and if Toriyama says "it wasn't 50, it was 10" and those 50 are in relation to the base power Goku had, it's obvious that the 10 are also in relation to the base power Goku had.
It's obvious that putting KKx10 on here to say "Toriyama said it was 10 times the strength he had already multiplied by 10 thanks to the KK" is just another excuse to accommodate reality to your stance instead of accommodating your stance to reality.

Except Toriyama is forgetful and he more than likely thought Kaioken x10 was Goku's base power? It's not like it is an impossibility. It's not to accommodate anything. It isn't like this is just my theory. Even Herms postulated this at one point. As the exact words used in the guide says Toriyama made Goku 10x stronger than he could be at that point.

The exact words he uses are: 10x stronger than he could be to that point.

For Japanese readers:

中略

ただ当時、スーパーサイヤ人になると、約５０倍の強さとされていたんですが、ちょっと大袈裟でしたね。作者の気持ちとしては、今までの１０倍ぐらいの変化、という感じで描いていたと思います。

That's interesting. And still confusing, since Goku as SSJ is only x5 stronger than he could be up to that point, taking Kaio-ken x10 into account, so Toriyama's idea is actually twice as large as the x50 net increase he thought was so huge. But of course, by his own admission he's forgotten most of the story, so I really shouldn't nitpick so.

Is it really written out スーパーサイヤ人 and not 超サイヤ人 with スーパー furigana, like in the manga?

Piccolo's extravagant gains are also justified by extravagant situations, like him fusing nail and him being only a half-being. But when it came to training he always powered up as much as the rest of the cast (except for the sayans when they abuse the zenkay power).

Nail noted that Piccolo had incredible power before fusing with him. But despite his incredible power it wouldn't be enough to defeat Freeza. For Nail to think this then Piccolo's gains from the 6 days on Kaio's planet must have been incredible. To go from 2,000-3,000 to probably over 10,000 like Kuririn and Gohan had become. I would say that he probably got much stronger than 10,000 too. Maybe even around Nail's level. And Piccolo going from 408 to 2,000-3,000 during a years worth of training is also an extreme increase.

[Kamiccolo9]

What's a "zenkay?"

[Hitiro]

I assume he means Zenkai. The whole death abuse thing.

[Kamiccolo9]

I assume he means Zenkai. The whole death abuse thing.

I am aware. I'm curious as to why he's been writing it that way for months.

[kuartus4]

Trunks didn't know how strong Goku was. Why would he go all-out, risking cutting Goku in half?

Trunks didn't go all out. Goku said so after their little duel. The better question is why would Goku suppress himself even after Trunks told him he wasn't going to hold back and risk getting himself cut in half? Wouldn't Goku wan't to be at his strongest?

[Hugo Boss]

^By Vegeta saying the Androids weren't as bad as Trunks made them out to be.

How bad Trunks made them?

Trunks didn't know how strong Goku was. Why would he go all-out, risking cutting Goku in half?

Trunks didn't go all out. Goku said so after their little duel. The better question is why would Goku suppress himself even after Trunks told him he wasn't going to hold back and risk getting himself cut in half? Wouldn't Goku wan't to be at his strongest?

Not exactly. He used his finger to fight Trunks.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

No, like Trunks made them sound God-like, then Vegeta's all like "hey they aren't so bad", implying that they're not strong enough to stomp the likes of Trunks.

[Hugo Boss]

Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”

Not clear if this sounds a stomp. The way Trunks sounded is that though they could be stronger they weren't that much stronger than him.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I'm talking about in the Mecha arc. That's Trunks talking about Future 17 and 18. Vegeta says they're not as bad as Trunks made them out to be before finding out 19 and 20 weren't the ones in Trunks' timeline.

[Hugo Boss]

Chapter: 335 (DBZ 141), P3.3-4
Goku: “For you, a Super Saiyan who instantly defeated Freeza and co., to call them monsters is really something…
Trunks “Yes…I’ve stood against them, but unfortunately…In any case, I’m up against two of them…Even fighting one-on-one, I could barely manage to escape…”

To mix things up, Trunks said he could fight them fairly well, but still barely manage to escape against one of them. If Trunks had two partners about as strong as him, like Goku or Vegeta, they have more chances to win.

[Presto88]

Personally the way I've always viewed it is that 19 and 20 represent what the original 17 and 18 were in Trunks's timeline. Also the fact that 19 was even able to mix it with SSJ Goku (sick or not, it took a while for Gohan and Piccolo to realise something was up and they both had a full grasp on what Goku was capable of) coupled with Vegeta being concerned to face 20 with anything less than his full power are telling in my opinion.

If they weren't more powerful than Frieza I believe at the very least they were comparable.

[Darkprince410]

Personally the way I've always viewed it is that 19 and 20 represent what the original 17 and 18 were in Trunks's timeline. Also the fact that 19 was even able to mix it with SSJ Goku (sick or not, it took a while for Gohan and Piccolo to realise something was up and they both had a full grasp on what Goku was capable of) coupled with Vegeta being concerned to face 20 with anything less than his full power are telling in my opinion.

If they weren't more powerful than Freeza I believe at the very least they were comparable.

Piccolo seemed to notice that something was up with Goku pretty much right away, and likewise stated that Vegeta had lost a lot of stamina as a result of #19, so we don't know how much weaker Vegeta was following their skirmish. It wasn't just that Vegeta was worried about facing him with less than full power, it was worried about facing him with such a low battle power in general.

[mAcChaos]

Not being as strong as he expected, doesn't mean they aren't stronger than him. The androids could be 10% stronger instead of 500%.