Does God Ki bug anyone else?

[voltlunok]

I wanna state this flat out at the start. This thread isn't about bashing, beating, dissing, shit talking or overall trying to hate on BoG. I merely wish to discuss the concept of God Ki and how it feels like it goes against a lot of what makes DB and DBZ good. It irks the hell out of me, it feels very out of place in DBZ. I always saw DBZ's fighting and training as working towards gaining power to match an opponent, to fight on a fair playing field. But...God Ki just feels cheap. It's like Kekkei Genkai in early (And some stages later) Naruto to me, a thing to make this person more special then that person.

[EmmaWinters]

But...God Ki just feels cheap. It's like Kekkei Genkai in early (And some stages later) Naruto to me, a thing to make this person more special then that person.

While I understand what you're trying to say, the exact same thing could be said of Super Saiyan.
At least with godly ki, it isn't limited to the main character's race.

My opinion on it wholly depends on how it's utilized in the future.
It could end up being cheap and empty, or it could serve as a stepping stone into a whole new world.

[ImmaDeker]

How is god ki cheap when it doesn't even make Goku strong enough to beat Beerus? The entire point of god ki was about how much Goku still had to learn and how much he still had to improve. He was made a "god" and then shown how MINISCULE he really was during the very same fight.

The entire story even ended on Goku knowing there're stronger fighters out there he has to work to match. God kid is used to REENFORCE THE THING YOU LIKE ABOUT DRAGONBALL in its one usage.

EDIT: I just remembered that, even during the fight, Goku was frustrated he didn't achieve Super Saiyan God via his own means. It's acknowledged as a rather artificial increase in power and is the big thing that goes into encouraging Super Saiyan God's general theme in the story: providing scope for all Goku HAS YET to achieve, not giving Goku an achievement.

The only way Super Saiyan God comes off as some "cheap cop out", or whatever, is if you don't pay even the slightest attention to the context of the story it appears in.

[voltlunok]

How is god ki cheap when it doesn't even make Goku strong enough to beat Beerus? The entire point of god ki was about how much Goku still had to learn and how much he still had to improve. He was made a "god" and then shown how MINISCULE he really was during the very same fight.

The entire story even ended on Goku knowing there're stronger fighters out there he has to work to match. God kid is used to REENFORCE THE THING YOU LIKE ABOUT DRAGONBALL in its one usage.

EDIT: I just remembered that, even during the fight, Goku was frustrated he didn't achieve Super Saiyan God via his own means. It's acknowledged as a rather artificial increase in power and is the big thing that goes into encouraging Super Saiyan God's general theme in the story: providing scope for all Goku HAS YET to achieve, not giving Goku an achievement.

The only way Super Saiyan God comes off as some "cheap cop out", or whatever, is if you don't pay even the slightest attention to the context of the story it appears in.

I was not talking about Goku. I'm not even talking BoG. I'm talking about God Ki as a concept feels cheap. Another way to place a gap between this group of fighters and another. As FatNagger put it, even super saiyan did this. But at least they tried to keep some fighters relevant even after introducing super saieyan! But there is just a bunch of stuff with God Ki that irks me. It feels out of place in DBZ...Why does DBZ suddenly need this special energy type? Why do we need this to show Goku has more to learn? Why do we need yet another factor keeping this big power gap between everyone else? What's next? Demonic Ki? Sage Ki? Hyper Ki? Omega Ki? If we talk about God Ki within the context of BoG, it wasn't needed. You could clearly still have Beerus be stronger then Goku, still have Goku lose, teach the same lesson, and not introduce something to make the power gap between everyone grow larger.

I think the best example for what I mean is from Saint Seiya. Sure the show had a class like system with the different cloths but it clearly went to show and even say that the class of your cloth meant NOTHING! It was your Cosmos that mattered the most, a bronze saint could fight at a gold saint's level. It just took practice and true understanding of one's cosmos and self! With god ki it's just...you're more special now. There was no work for it, do a ritual and now you're a god, sure Goku shows distaste for this but it doesn't change the fact that there was zero work for it. It was handed to him and could just as easily be handed to someone else when you could do so much more with what we already had!

[ImmaDeker]

Dragonball as a series always bullshits some new concept for its mythology when the story demands it. Why did Goku need to be an alien when, originally, his tail was just meant to represent himself as a wild boy. Him being part of the Saiyans, an organized army of a space emperor, is the EXACT OPPOSITE of the original intention of the tail's meaning. Why do these same warriors have an incredibly specific, but equally vague, legend about one of them being SUPER DUPER STRONGEST (besides the fact Goku, as per the consequences of cribbing from Superman's mythology, becomes Wuxia Moses for the Freeza arc) have anything to do with Goku's status as a wildman?

I don't understand your complaints at all. First, you say that god ki undermines what you like about Dragonball Z which is, and I quote,

I merely wish to discuss the concept of God Ki and how it feels like it goes against a lot of what makes DB and DBZ good. It irks the hell out of me, it feels very out of place in DBZ. I always saw DBZ's fighting and training as working towards gaining power to match an opponent, to fight on a fair playing field.

And...Super Saiyan God is, arguably, the one big Z-era power up that DOESN'T do that, Goku acquiring it doesn't make him a match for Beerus, he's frustrated that he has power he didn't earn, and that the scope of having the ki of a god was entirely to show Goku HOW MUCH HARDER HE HAS TO WORK. It's NOT like Super Saiyan, its effect don't make Goku some heralded super warrior who can stop evil just because he was born at the right time and had the right life. Super Saiyan God's entire deal is that it's a completely ironic status to have: "Battle of Gods" is one of the few times Toriyama does something even passably clever in that it's an ironic form and an ironic title, because god ki exists as a way to show us just how MORTAL Goku's capabilities and limitations ultimately are. It's a literalization of the movie's theme, an artistic embellishment, meant to emphasize a point using a powerful visual and concept (gods, which're as old as stories themselves and a powerful concept for many people).

But when I bring this up, you say NOOOO MAN

THE LOOOOORE

Which...how is this sensible? You want to discuss god ki, a narrative concept, but...you don't want to discuss it in the actual context its presented in. You HATE the idea, even though the story god ki is introduced in reinforces everything you just said you like about Dragonball. You just hate it as if it's an unfair game mechanic completely divorced from any context. Because some how, in a discussion about a written work, we suddenly have to talk about it like it's some open world video game shit where god ki is "unfair?" It's a fucking movie, every element that exists in it has both an "in-universe" application (as much as I hate the phrase "in-universe") and a wider narrative purpose (to highlight character, symbolize theme, express an idea), etc. and both of those must be seen in tandem for the element in question to be discussed properly or make sense. You can't just say "Let's discuss god ki, but its actual purpose in the one written story its featured in isn't relevant to us discussing whether or not this idea is a good one." Instead talk about it as an amorphous concept that exists divorced from any real meaning...even though the meaning it has, the meaning you're actively rejecting, represents reteaching and reestablishing to the audience what you love about Dragonball.

Do you realize how ridiculous this sounds and how overly simplistic and doltish the resulting conversation would be? Literally the only reason you hate this concept is because you somehow refuse to look at it at how it is presented to you, instead being irritated about it ruining the need to grow stronger as it fails to help Goku defeat Beerus and encourages him to train and get stronger.

[voltlunok]

Do you realize how your post comes off utterly childish? Cursing, insulting and trying to play like someone is stupid because you assume they don't understand the narrative concept of something that adds up to a whole lot of nothing? Which I do, does this magically make God ki an amazing concept because of it's irony and what it's trying to show? No. It's unneeded, you can teach the same damn lesson without introducing half a ton of BS but I digress.

Yes god ki does go against what I like about DBZ for the reason of it's handed to him. It is given to him on a silver platter but not only that, it amounts to nothing. But I guess there lies the truth of it, he didn't work for it so he didn't get rewarded for it. But just because I don't stand up in the theater and clap because of the irony doesn't mean I don't understand it, It means I don't like it! I fully saw what was done in this movie but it still showed no purpose in being there because like I said, you can teach the same lessons without God

But actually your analogy of me thinking of it like a game mechanic isn't quite wrong because it might as well be one. You need God ki to counteract it. A normal fighter cannot compete with a god ki wielder. Unless you wanna say Vegeta totally would have beaten Beerus if he got mad enough! Doubt that though. God ki goes against what I enjoy out of dbz, working your hardest towards a goal but you can't work towards God ki because it seems you must either be born with it or given it.

But then again that all falls into this magical world called opinions! I deeply apologize for having one, didn't mean to break off from the hive mind to try and have a civil discussion!

[rereboy]

Dragonball as a series always bullshits some new concept for its mythology when the story demands it. Why did Goku need to be an alien when, originally, his tail was just meant to represent himself as a wild boy.

Er... Not really. Goku had a tail because early Dragon ball is a loose take on the Journey to the West, where the hero, Sun Wukong, is the monkey king. That's why he had a tail. In fact, early designs of Goku by Toriyama had him be much more monkey-like than he ended up being.

On topic, I understand the criticism of God Ki, but honestly, it isn't much different from the holy water power-up, the Guru power-up and the Kaioshin power-up.

[Rocketman]

It bugs me that it's suddenly introduced as a Big Deal when we've seen like 10-12 gods already and they've been chumps at worst and only good for training boosts at best.

Also since Goku could've become a god like thirty years ago and it wouldn't have been a Mega Power Boost.

[rereboy]

It bugs me that it's suddenly introduced as a Big Deal when we've seen like 10-12 gods already and they've been chumps at worst and only good for training boosts at best.

Also since Goku could've become a god like thirty years ago and it wouldn't have been a Mega Power Boost.

Yes, that's what I have some trouble with, not really the fact that its a free power-up.

[Gyt Kaliba]

Nice to see that certain people still can't discuss things without coming off as condescending; stay classy.

I'd have to say I'm with Nagger on this one, it's going to depend on where they go with this (something we'll hopefully see in the new movie). If they use it wrong, then it could just be the new 'Super Saiyan' status that just constantly outranks everyone else for the sake of...outranking everyone else, which would be all the more pointless since, again, we already have 'Super Saiiyan' for that.

I'm kind of hoping they use it in an interesting way, kind of like the various kinds of energy sources in Yu Yu Hakusho (spirit energy, demon energy, sacred energy, etc.). Dragon Ball already kind of has that if I recall, with things such as 'genki' for the Genki Dama, but it's never been super well explored in-series.

[Zephyr]

It bugs me that it's suddenly introduced as a Big Deal when we've seen like 10-12 gods already and they've been chumps at worst and only good for training boosts at best.

Also since Goku could've become a god like thirty years ago and it wouldn't have been a Mega Power Boost.

I just look at it as a different medium of ki, the quantity is still important. The gods we've seen before don't have very much God ki, so it didn't make much of a difference.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

It bugs me that it's suddenly introduced as a Big Deal when we've seen like 10-12 gods already and they've been chumps at worst and only good for training boosts at best.

Also since Goku could've become a god like thirty years ago and it wouldn't have been a Mega Power Boost.

Yes, that's what I have some trouble with, not really the fact that its a free power-up.

It troubles me a little as well, but then again, we are talking about a god of destruction & a god of a fighting race, it's natural for them to be strong since they are made to destroy/fight, unlike the other gods, whose primary duties are not to destroy/fight.

[voltlunok]

Nice to see that certain people still can't discuss things without coming off as condescending; stay classy.

I apologize if my last one came off like that. I snapped a little with how talk downy that last post was towards me, my bad.

But anyways back on topic!

It bugs me that it's suddenly introduced as a Big Deal when we've seen like 10-12 gods already and they've been chumps at worst and only good for training boosts at best.

Also since Goku could've become a god like thirty years ago and it wouldn't have been a Mega Power Boost.

Yes, that's what I have some trouble with, not really the fact that its a free power-up.

The free power-up part doesn't bug me as much, it's as Rocketman put it. It's introduced as this huge deal but then equates to nothing. So for me it's a question of why do we need this if it does pretty much nothing?

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

It bugs me that it's suddenly introduced as a Big Deal when we've seen like 10-12 gods already and they've been chumps at worst and only good for training boosts at best.

Honestly I thought this was what we were talking about. Between the Kaioshins being all but biologically confirmed to be Gods and their acting as Beerus's counterparts rather than new characters.

[fadeddreams5]

Is there any confirmation that someone with regular ki cannot compete with someone who has god ki? I may be wrong, but don't the Kaioshin also possess god ki? Yet they were weaker than a lot of mortals. Is the ki of a god of destruction different or something? As far as I know, the only difference between the two types of ki is that a mortal cannot sense god ki.

Really, the whole thing is ambiguous. We can't really judge until we see how it's handled in the new movie.

[Dayspring]

Is there any confirmation that someone with regular ki cannot compete with someone who has god ki? I may be wrong, but don't the Kaioshin also possess god ki? Yet they were weaker than a lot of mortals. Is the ki of a god of destruction different or something? As far as I know, the only difference between the two types of ki is that a mortal cannot sense god ki.

Really, the whole thing is ambiguous. We can't really judge until we see how it's handled in the new movie.

I think that was the point: Goku and co from the Boo saga are the first people with regular ki to even come close to the level of strength that Kaioshin can reach, and the latter are shown to us as being the chumps out of those who have God Ki. So it's not that it's impossible, so much as it's so frickin' unlikely that prior to Kaioshin meeting Goku, it was assumed to being impossible.


Back to the original topic, my beef with God Ki is how they handled it as a Super Saiyan thing. I would have preferred if it was just "Saiyan God" or us finding out that Goku is the Legendary Super Saiyan that comes around every 1,000 years. Because really, Broly is just a mutant (like the Ginyu force) who can combine his mutant power with regular SSJ.

[EXBadguy]

The only thing that bugs me about God Ki is the way to obtain(playing ring-a-round-the=posie ) it and it makes the design overly-simplistic. A skinny Kaioken knockoff. I wished Toriyama would've just gave up his version for the cloak one, except that the bigger muscles and golden hair had to go. I imagine Goku's "original concept" SSG mode looking a lot like....

this form

but with the cloak they mentioned, dark fire aura, and the hair a between SSJ3 and SSJ4.

I even expect anyone who has goldly ki to look like a drastic transformation.

[Kamiccolo9]

I even expect anyone who has goldly ki to look like a drastic transformation.

Because the gods in Dragon Ball look soooooooo intimidating.

[EXBadguy]

I even expect anyone who has goldly ki to look like a drastic transformation.

Because the gods in Dragon Ball look soooooooo intimidating.

Beerus looked intimidating when he's mad.... *shrug* Whatever.

[fadeddreams5]

The only thing that bugs me about God Ki is the way to obtain(playing ring-a-round-the=posie ) it and it makes the design overly-simplistic. A skinny Kaioken knockoff. I wished Toriyama would've just gave up his version for the cloak one, except that the bigger muscles and golden hair had to go. I imagine Goku's "original concept" SSG mode looking a lot like....

this form

but with the cloak they mentioned, dark fire aura, and the hair a between SSJ3 and SSJ4.

I even expect anyone who has goldly ki to look like a drastic transformation.

Surprised you put that picture of Ichigo up and didn't mention the similarities between God Ki and what they have in Bleach. When Aizen reached a transcendent mode using the hogyoku, nobody--hollow or shinigami--could sense his power because he reached a dimension of his own. Only Ichigo, having also become a transcendent, could compete with him.

Bleach did this shit first.