Are Androids 19 and 20 stronger than Freeza?

[Presto88]

Piccolo seemed to notice that something was up with Goku pretty much right away, and likewise stated that Vegeta had lost a lot of stamina as a result of #19, so we don't know how much weaker Vegeta was following their skirmish. It wasn't just that Vegeta was worried about facing him with less than full power, it was worried about facing him with such a low battle power in general.

While I most certainly agree with most of that, the point where I differ is the amount of battle power Vegeta actually lost. I consider 3 points here, first off visually he was completely fine where all other victims were visibly weakened or distressed, knowing Vegeta though this all very well could have been a ruse and quite frankly likely was, nevertheless it is still a point to be considered.

Secondly he didn't have so much power drained that he reverted back from SSJ, and finally he was able to muster a seemingly full power Big Bang attack that everyone seemed to be in awe of. All these points lead me to believe that through ki control, 19 really didn't get all that much power from him, which I believe the story emphasises. So my point stands to reason that even after losing a relatively negligible amount of power Vegeta was still concerned with the prospect of facing 20 with anything less than his best, a conclusion I believe he made by first gauging his battle with 19 and secondly taking Gero at his word that he was in fact more powerful than his predecessor.

[singsing]

Him expending a lot of ki by firing a "seemingly full power big bang attack" might also have to do with him needing a senzu...

[Darkprince410]

While I most certainly agree with most of that, the point where I differ is the amount of battle power Vegeta actually lost. I consider 3 points here, first off visually he was completely fine where all other victims were visibly weakened or distressed, knowing Vegeta though this all very well could have been a ruse and quite frankly likely was, nevertheless it is still a point to be considered.

Secondly he didn't have so much power drained that he reverted back from SSJ, and finally he was able to muster a seemingly full power Big Bang attack that everyone seemed to be in awe of. All these points lead me to believe that through ki control, 19 really didn't get all that much power from him, which I believe the story emphasises. So my point stands to reason that even after losing a relatively negligible amount of power Vegeta was still concerned with the prospect of facing 20 with anything less than his best, a conclusion I believe he made by first gauging his battle with 19 and secondly taking Gero at his word that he was in fact more powerful than his predecessor.

Piccolo does suggest otherwise though.

“He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”

It wasn't just that he lost "stamina", but a lot of stamina. Likewise, his lack of showing fatigue seems to be (according to Piccolo) just a part of the ruse to counter just how weak he had actually become as a result. As for Gero being stronger than #19, I don't think that was ever actually stated in the manga. While it's potentially suggested that Gero is stronger by this line:

“However, this isn’t anything great enough to give us reason to fear. It’s still within a level which even No.19 is more than capable of defeating, and naturally that goes for myself as well…”

It's never actually outright stated that Gero is stronger than #19 is.

[Presto88]

Piccolo does suggest otherwise though.

I understand that it is what Piccolo suggested, but I am referring directly to what Vegeta did in the physical and observational sense and basing my assumptions on that information. So again his physical presence/demeanour, sustained SSJ form and awe inspiring finishing move lead me to believe he didn't loose all that much power.

With specific regard to Piccolo's statements, I have always found it a bit confusing, even slightly contradictory with reference to the whole energy draining ordeal. He himself was victim to it and seemed completely exhausted after and would require a senzu bean just to compose himself again. Yet, later on he would make a comment almost boasting about his ability to explosively increase his ki at will (a skill extending to all the z warriors) and that the energy taken from him was "nothing" relatively speaking. This sort of makes the whole thing a bit confusing, while it makes sense that they could do this, a scenario where BP is at 100 million reducing to 1 million and having the majority drained would effectively be inconsequential and given our understanding of the Z warriors ability to control ki this is a highly plausible scenario.

If that is the case, how are any of the androids physical drainage assaults (ki attacks excluded) even a threat? This is why, for this particular event, I dont place as much emphasis on statements made and try to refer more to the physical and what we can actually deduce through observation and an understanding of the combatants abilities.

[mAcChaos]

So again his physical presence/demeanour, sustained SSJ form and awe inspiring finishing move lead me to believe he didn't loose all that much power.

What Piccolo was saying though, was that all of that was part of the bluff.

[Presto88]

What Piccolo was saying though, was that all of that was part of the bluff.

I agree to an extent, that may help explain the first point ala Vegeta's posturing but that has no bearing on him physically sustaining SSJ and summoning enough power to produce a devastating finishing attack. Furthermore it does nothing to address the comments Piccolo would later make basically stating the androids can only take as much power as the victim allows them to take.

Truthfully he may have been unaware of the fact that Vegeta could control his ki in the same manner which himself and the other earth based warriors could. He wasn't really present for much of the namek saga (where Vegeta developed his control of ki) and was only privy to a brief battle between Freeza and Vegeta. It is entirely probable that he simply based the assumption of Vegeta losing plenty of stamina on how long the android was holding Vegeta for and knowing that its touch had energy draining properties. No one else seemed to make those assumptions, namely Krillin and Gohan who had a better grasp of Vegeta's abilities due to their time on Namek.

Put in that context its makes a little more sense that he would make the comments he made.

[Darkprince410]

Truthfully he may have been unaware of the fact that Vegeta could control his ki in the same manner which himself and the other earth based warriors could. He wasn't really present for much of the namek saga (where Vegeta developed his control of ki) and was only privy to a brief battle between Freeza and Vegeta. It is entirely probable that he simply based the assumption of Vegeta losing plenty of stamina on how long the android was holding Vegeta for and knowing that its touch had energy draining properties. No one else seemed to make those assumptions, namely Krillin and Gohan who had a better grasp of Vegeta's abilities due to their time on Namek.

Put in that context its makes a little more sense that he would make the comments he made.

Piccolo though would have easily been able to sense Vegeta's ki dropping and tell that his strength was dropping considerably in relation to where it was earlier. Besides, Piccolo's generally shown more aptitude in seeing any issues or anomalies in an individual's strengths than others do. For example, he could instantly tell that something was amiss in Goku's output against #19, when everyone other than Gohan thought he was doing just fine.

Besides, given that Piccolo witnessed just as much of Vegeta's maximum strength on Namek that Kuririn and Gohan did, I doubt there was much more insight the two had in his abilities than Piccolo would have.

[Presto88]

Piccolo though would have easily been able to sense Vegeta's ki dropping and tell that his strength was dropping considerably in relation to where it was earlier. Besides, Piccolo's generally shown more aptitude in seeing any issues or anomalies in an individual's strengths than others do. For example, he could instantly tell that something was amiss in Goku's output against #19, when everyone other than Gohan thought he was doing just fine.

To be fair the point of contention here is a significant loss vs a minor, irrespective of any aptitudes or further insights Piccolo may or may not have if the loss was noteworthy it's a relatively straightforward detection that all the Z warriors were capable of making, hes lost a lot of battle power or he hasn't, there are no underlying or hidden factors here. If it wasn't noteworthy, and he had a sense something was off, fine, but I'm not debating that point. My position revolves around the idea that the loss was insignificant, yet Vegeta was still hesitant to do battle unless he was at his best, which in turn could be a major indicator as to the androids strength. Besides all that none of this takes away from Piccolo's statement which suggests the androids were only capable of stealing energy that was made available to steal and due to all earth based warriors ability to suppress and control their ki, they could only take a relatively small amount during a physical assault.

Besides, given that Piccolo witnessed just as much of Vegeta's maximum strength on Namek that Kuririn and Gohan did, I doubt there was much more insight the two had in his abilities than Piccolo would have.

It wasn't the matter of knowing Vegeta's full strength but more about Vegetas ability to control (suppress, explosively increase, detect etc) which I was referring too and like I said he was only privy to one (brief) battle (also noteworthy was that he had just taken an absolute beating, and likely wasn't too focused on the details) which only called for all out force while Krillin and Gohan were basically present for an entire campaign with the guy in which he displayed the ability to suppress, hide, detect and increase.