Would Z have been as successful on US TV if JPN BGM was kept

[Kakacarrottop]

Faulconer came in with his style of music and helped make it a major part of many fans' childhoods.

It wasn't really his "style". In reality all he and his team were doing was just cheaply imitating the style of Ron Wasserman (first FUNimation DBZ composer). The only reason his music is more popular is because it aired in more episodes so people hold more nostalgia towards it.

[Eire]

Well, I think that's just pure old nostalgia. Had they been exposed to any other version they would have tears in eyes listening to it and argue that this was what created magic and so on. I swear on the French opening of DBZ

[Big Momma]

I'm wondering why American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world, where the original score did just fine.

Regardless of how fair this is (or isn't), I think American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world because America is not really known as a place where movies and TV shows from other countries are giant hints.

Which is the weirdest thing because America's population is literally composed of every type of person on Earth. We one of, if not the most diverse country.

[ABED]

I'm wondering why American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world, where the original score did just fine.

Well, I gave some thoughts on that earlier in the thread, but I'll repeat (and shorten) them here.
Regardless of how fair this is (or isn't), I think American kids are seen as different from kids in other parts of the world because America is not really known as a place where movies and TV shows from other countries are giant hints. Sure, we get a foreign film here and there that's a hit (Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon), but that's not particularly common. On the other hand, other countries get their cinematic content from all over the world (in both dubbed and subtitled format). As just one example, every year countries from around the world are used to getting a new Disney movie. Our stuff is on their screens all the time.
So, other countries appear to be more open to receiving movies and shows from other countries, because they're used to it. The same cannot be said for America.

But we're not talking about a foreign film where people read subtitles, we're talking about a foreign show that's dubbed and those are popular and have been for years. If you have the same content but people speaking English, it can be a hit, Enter the Dragon for example.

[TheBlackPaladin]

Which is the weirdest thing because America's population is literally composed of every type of person on Earth. We one of, if not the most diverse country.

Yeah, I know, right? I've always said the same thing, you'd think we of all countries would be one of the most welcoming of a foreign TV show, but, alas...

But we're not talking about a foreign film where people read subtitles, we're talking about a foreign show that's dubbed and those are popular and have been for years. If you have the same content but people speaking English, it can be a hit, Enter the Dragon for example.

Oh certainly, foreign productions definitely can be a hit here, and I think having something dubbed is a good way to make it more accessible. However, the popularity of foreign productions is--in America, at least--not nearly as present as it is in other countries. We export far more than we import when it comes to movies and TV shows.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Someone on the last page said that the Dragon Ball Wiki is a bad source of information. I didn't know that, so here's a slightly better one concerning Faulconer's influence on the American version of Dragon Ball Z.

Dragon Ball Z also proved to be a rating success in the United States, as the premiere of Season Three of Dragon Ball Z in 1999, done by Funimation's in-house dub, was the highest-rated program ever at the time on Cartoon Network.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragon_Ball_Z#Ratings

A few other people have mentioned that kids in other countries didn't get a new score like the US did and that Z did just fine. But kids in other countries are just that - other countries. Countries with different cultures, attitudes, and mannerisms than the United States. Look at video games. A lot of them released in Japan have different covers than in the U.S.¹ For instance, a character may smile in the Japanese cover art but in the US they have an aggressive look on their face (one of the Kirby games. An origami hat may be changed to a bunch of people holding a gun (Heavy Rain.

The point is that music has a major influence on anything. One of the directors/presidents/someone important of the PS3 game Heavenly Sword said, when noting the game would have 48GB of music, that music invoked feelings instantly. Quicker than a viewer/player seeing death and destruction or anything, music instantly gave the mood for something. Look at the Japanese version of Z at important moments like when Goku became SSJ or SSJ3 and then look at the dub with Faulconer's score. Look at any intense scene in any film or TV show and if you can, find a version on YouTube with the music removed (I've seen it before for Saw VI's ending). Music makes all the difference and in the U.S. people want action/aggression like we had in Faulconer's score, not Kikuchi's 3 min of music for a 23 min episode.

It's all demographics. I'm watching Dragon Ball right now and I wish they had given it an American score, although I don't find Kikuchi's bad here either. Alas I'm not too far in to it. I just prefer American music because in my opinion it's usually better. And I'm not a Faulconer fanboy or anything.² I liked Yamamoto's and Sumitomo's music a lot too, but Faulconer's music pieces are part of my childhood. It can't be beaten. I even prefer the 4Kids version of Yu-Gi-Oh! because it's childhood, even though it's infinitely worse than the original Japanese version.

In the end, we got what we got. Kai 1.0 did fairly well in the U.S. (never as good as Z, unfortunately) so maybe a new American score would've helped? I could be totally wrong here or totally right. Unless FUNimation decides to re-release Kai 1.0 with a new American score for us to compare we can never know. America may be diverse, but the attitude of kids in general (at least born in the U.S.) is not.

¹http://www.ign.com/articles/2012/03/13/ ... -the-world
²Although I do not take back my previous comment on Kikuchi's music, I do find it to be nice music to listen to, just not as background music for an action-packed fighting show like Dragon Ball Z.

[ABED]

The point is that music has a major influence on anything

No one is claiming otherwise, but you seem to imply that it's the primary reason for a show's success. Music can help a mood, but if done terribly, it can ruin it, overwhelm it, or convey the wrong mood. And lack of music can also convey something. Music is the sizzle, but you still need the steak.

not Kikuchi's 3 min of music for a 23 min episode.

That's just flat out false.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Music can help a mood, but if done terribly, it can ruin it, overwhelm it, or convey the wrong mood. And lack of music can also convey something. Music is the sizzle, but you still need the steak.

Yes and I think that the music made by Faulconer added something that Kikuchi's score missed. In my opinion I feel like, using your analogy, there was a tiny bit of sizzle for making a 1/5 of an ounce steak. Faulconer's score made a wonderful sizzle for a 20 oz. steak.

not Kikuchi's 3 min of music for a 23 min episode.

That's just flat out false.

I was exaggerating. I just know that in big scenes such as Goku's transformations to SSJ and SSJ3 there is no music playing (or very little) and I think that is a horrible mistake by Kikuchi to not have anything playing there. While a lack of music can convey something, the way Kikuchi did it to me just makes it look like he was didn't know what he was doing.

[GS7X7]

My biggest issue with them replacing the music is that Funimation never really took the time to watch the entire series on fansub.

Monika Antonelli asked EX if he knew where she could get fansubs during his famous e-mail correspondence with her over a decade ago.

And I remember PN.com's new archives include someone who attended a convention mentioning he spoke to Sabat. Sabat was voicing Vegeta during the Cell saga and wanted to lighten up the character, but the guy explained to him that Vegeta doesn't really start to lighten up some until well into the Buu saga. It was referenced in an old news update. Pn.com's archives are open again if anyone wants to go to the trouble of name-searching Sabat for the particular update, but I think it was before VA'ng on the Cell saga had finished.


http://www.animecauldron.com/dbzuncenso ... rview.html

"Steve: What about the multitude of non-official/commercial fansites out there?

Gen: I have checked out a few of the many sites out there, and I've even used some to find out what happens later in the series, because I sometimes need a little refresher...in that area."

This comment always struck me as suspicious as if he's admitting to not having bothered to watch the series. He knew Japanese, and Funimation had a complete set of Japanese master tapes (as Jon Allen mentioned when he visited Funi in an oldschool DaizeEX feature) so there wouldn't have been obstacle for him. I just wish Funimation had taken the time to watch the whole series on fansub. Hell, I once watched nearly 30-40 eps in a day, these guys could have done it. If they had done so then I don't think they would have been as willing to get rid of the music.

Most everyone back in the day replaced Japanese scores with newer scores to sell for cash and conventional child tv psychologists said that children will flip the channel if a tv show has any moments of silence. Those were the main reasons for replacing the music.

[ABED]

I was exaggerating. I just know that in big scenes such as Goku's transformations to SSJ and SSJ3 there is no music playing (or very little) and I think that is a horrible mistake by Kikuchi to not have anything playing there. While a lack of music can convey something, the way Kikuchi did it to me just makes it look like he was didn't know what he was doing.

Then you are remembering it wrong. There was plenty of music in the scene where Goku turns Super Saiyan, and unlike Faulconer who was trying to portray it as this amazing badass moment (and failing because his music is cheap and terrible) Kikuchi got that the moment was supposed to be ominous and forbodding.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4pOIgSp2kAE
By my count, only 48 seconds of the 3.5 minute clip was silence, and an effective use at that.

Yes and I think that the music made by Faulconer added something that Kikuchi's score missed. In my opinion I feel like, using your analogy, there was a tiny bit of sizzle for making a 1/5 of an ounce steak. Faulconer's score made a wonderful sizzle for a 20 oz. steak.

Faulconer never understood the tone of the show.

[kei17]

I was exaggerating. I just know that in big scenes such as Goku's transformations to SSJ and SSJ3 there is no music playing (or very little) and I think that is a horrible mistake by Kikuchi to not have anything playing there. While a lack of music can convey something, the way Kikuchi did it to me just makes it look like he was didn't know what he was doing.

Then you are remembering it wrong. There was plenty of music in the scene where Goku turns Super Saiyan, and unlike Faulconer who was trying to portray it as this amazing badass moment (and failing because his music is cheap and terrible) Kikuchi got that the moment was supposed to be ominous and forbodding.

In addition, you can't blame Kikuchi for the music placements because he just composed stock music and it's other people who placed it.

[fadeddreams5]

...unlike Faulconer who was trying to portray it as this amazing badass moment (and failing because his music is cheap and terrible)

But Faulconer did make that moment badass and straight up epic. The SSJ theme is the first thing that stood out for me when I first saw that scene, and I got goosebumps.

I had a conversation with my friend the other day about DBZ music. No idea how it popped up since I don't talk about this stuff in-depth to anyone outside Kanzenshuu, but the context of convo was him feeling put off by Kai because of Kikuchi's soundtrack. He texted this to me:

"DBZ has some memorable moments, but I always remember the music. The music that played when Piccolo absorbed that Namek on his home planet. When Goku turned SS1, SS3. When Vegeta did final flash against Cell, Goku spirit bomb against Freeza. The music that played during the fight between Goku and Cell. When Trunks went crazy and shot off an energy beam at the androids. Those were all memorable, but the music stood out. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to audio. It just made it that much more dramatic."

Case in point, even if Faulconer's music is cheap, it hit home for a lot of people who really do consider it awesome. Many people prefer Kikuchi's OST because it fits better or sets a sort of mood, but the people who like Faulconer's OST like it for a different reason. They associate the music with the actual scenes, so they remember important parts of the show through the music that played in them. It certainly created a different experience, and I'm glad we got that. >.>

[kei17]

But Faulconer did make that moment badass and straight up epic. The SSJ theme is the first thing that stood out for me when I first saw that scene, and I got goosebumps.

I quote my post in a Kai thread:

The music placements in Kai have always been suffering from this kind of dogma; "I make this scene more badass cause we already know what's gonna happen and I don't care what the characters in the situation or people new to the show would feel." They should not clap in such fanwanking kind of subjective view to official productions.

The Faulconer score often suffers from this problem, too. As you say, the SSJ transformation theme is epic and I like it, too, but it's not a proper presentation of the scene. The music should represent Goku's fury and the tension of the situation, but Faulconer's track emphasizes the "hype" for the transformation that viewers are not supposed to know yet. It lacks the drama. Their representation is closer to those of AMVs.

I had a conversation with my friend the other day about DBZ music. No idea how it popped up since I don't talk about this stuff in-depth to anyone outside Kanzenshuu, but the context of convo was him feeling put off by Kai because of Kikuchi's soundtrack. He texted this to me:

Well, the Kikuchi version of Kai definitely sucks because its placement is a rush job as a result of Yamamoto's scandal. It's not fair to treat it as the same thing as that in Z.

[SpiritBombTriumphant]

Faulconer never understood the tone of the show.

Are you sure? Because when I watch either Z or Kai 1.0 with Kikuchi's score, I see nothing except fail as he can't get the most amazing moments properly scored and there isn't much music to the series. Faulconer, on the other hand, created a new tone with his music that appropriately revealed the amazing-ness of the show in my opinion. Like I said before, I feel like Kikuchi could have an intense action moment for a movie and would just sit there and not have any music, whereas Faulconer is the one with the knowledge to create a piece of music for that scene that enhances the action/whatever is going on with music for it.

you can't blame Kikuchi for the music placements because he just composed stock music and it's other people who placed it.

I'm talking about Kikuchi's score for Z, not Kai 1.0. And to my knowledge the person who composes the score for a show also chooses where a piece of music plays. The exception to this is the Yamamoto scandal where they hastily grabbed Kikuchi's recordings of random noise and threw it in really quick. As a fair man I don't count that since it isn't his fault, not that his placements for Z were much better in my opinion.

...unlike Faulconer who was trying to portray it as this amazing badass moment (and failing because his music is cheap and terrible)

But Faulconer did make that moment badass and straight up epic. The SSJ theme is the first thing that stood out for me when I first saw that scene, and I got goosebumps.

I had a conversation with my friend the other day about DBZ music. No idea how it popped up since I don't talk about this stuff in-depth to anyone outside Kanzenshuu, but the context of convo was him feeling put off by Kai because of Kikuchi's soundtrack. He texted this to me:

"DBZ has some memorable moments, but I always remember the music. The music that played when Piccolo absorbed that Namek on his home planet. When Goku turned SS1, SS3. When Vegeta did final flash against Cell, Goku spirit bomb against Freeza. The music that played during the fight between Goku and Cell. When Trunks went crazy and shot off an energy beam at the androids. Those were all memorable, but the music stood out. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to audio. It just made it that much more dramatic."

Case in point, even if Faulconer's music is cheap, it hit home for a lot of people who really do consider it awesome. Many people prefer Kikuchi's OST because it fits better or sets a sort of mood, but the people who like Faulconer's OST like it for a different reason. They associate the music with the actual scenes, so they remember important parts of the show through the music that played in them. It certainly created a different experience, and I'm glad we got that. >.>

Exactly. Faulconer changed the tone of the series with his music and had many memorable moments because of his music. I saw a photo on Facebook that was the picture of Goku's face right as he turned SSJ and the gold aura appeared around him with his eyes turning green and his hair gold. It was captioned "LIKE IF THIS WAS THE MOST BADASS MOMENT OF YOUR CHILDHOOD." And when I think about that I'm thinking to myself, that was so badass. But on here I now ask myself, why? And it's because of the music. Kikuchi had a tone for the show and Faulconer had another that created epic moments for us. Why did they do it differently? Different cultures, different audience, different attitudes towards things....

And skill, although since I feel as though Kikuchi has none it's more of a "no skill vs skilled professional" instead of "difference in skill." But in the end, I think what makes the score for any of us is the tone it sets and what we want to see out of the show. I like to see the tone they had in Z, some people like Kikuchi's, and hell I can really appreciate Yamamoto's score for Kai 1.0 because it went well together and had a tone that wasn't bad at all. Now Sumitomo on the other hand, well, it's not his fault. They didn't pay him so he didn't make much music. All I can remember off of Kai 2.0's score is that nasty disco track I've seen others on here bash, and it gives me a headache to think about.

His score for Battle of Gods was quite good though, so I'm looking forward to hearing his new music for Resurrection「F」¹. In my opinion, the best sound designers for Z/Kai 1.0 & 2.0 are, in order: Bruce Faulconer/Kenji Yamamoto in first place for making great music that fits the tones of the show very well, even if the tones themselves are very different. Nathan Johnson for his work on seasons one and two of Z and on some movies like Fusion Reborn with that other guy he worked with (forget the name), Sumitomo since he does have the skill to make good music that fits the tone of the series he just doesn't due to lack of payment, and finally Kikuchi since his work on the original Dragon Ball was all right, but in my opinion everything he did for Z was a melodic holocaust, if we can even call his noise "melodic."

But this brings up another question (for me at least). What kind of tone did American children want back in the late 90s/early 2000s? Would Kikuchi's score really have worked, or were we in the era where Faulconer's music was the best choice? The only thing I can say for certain is that FUNimation's decision that everyone wanted rap and other metal bands for OVAs like The History of Trunks and that nasty "Step into the Grand Tour" opening for GT were horrible (worse than Kikuchi, which is quite impressive on a negative scale).

¹Does anyone else think FUNimation "accidentally a word" with that title? Specifically, the word "of"?

[ABED]

Case in point, even if Faulconer's music is cheap, it hit home for a lot of people who really do consider it awesome.

And Kikuchi's score hit home for a lot of people. You can find fans for almost anything.

revealed the amazing-ness of the show in my opinion

But he didn't reveal anything. Music can accentuate things, and your comment comes off like we never could've seen how fun these characters and stories are without someone hitting you over the head with synthetic "ACTION" signs with flashing neon lights.

The show is as light hearted and funny as it is action packed. Faulconer Productions never seemed to get that.

I don't recall many intense action scenes that didn't have music, and when they didn't, the silence was used to accentuate something. I like judicious moments of silence instead of the incessant need to put score over everything.

But on here I now ask myself, why? And it's because of the music.

It wasn't the cool animation, the acting, the writing, the characters? It was just the music? If it's all about the music, buy a CD or mp3. Those moments were already epic, we didn't need a cheap lifeless score that sounded dated even then.

A number of you keep bringing up differences in cultures, but culture changes constantly and often it's because someone or something has the guts to do something different.

[JulieYBM]

Miyashita Shigeru is credited as 'Music Selection' for the first three Dragon Ball television animated series.

[Kaboom]

America is not "special." Dragon Ball Z has universal appeal that doesn't need to be screwed around with to be popular. If the music didn't need to be replaced anywhere else in the world, then it didn't need to be replaced for North America, either. Period.

There was never any good enough reason to do something so disrespectful as replacing the music. The show is what it is, and FUNimation's job has never been anything more than to take the show and present it in English. They crossed the line by thinking it needed to be "reversioned" to hold any appeal. If time or budget constraints would have prevented them from doing this back in the 90's... then good. If they failed to secure and release it, then maybe it would have gone to some other company that would have treated it with a modicum of respect from the get-go.

But that's not what happened. FUNimation smeared a rough and raunchy "EXTREME NINETIES CARTOON" stink all over their product back in the day, and it caused lasting damage. We've got people who think Goku's "hope of the universe" speech is the bestest thing ever. We've got people who think Linda Young's Freeza was a brilliantly portrayed masterpiece performance. And we've got people who think Bruce Faulconer's droning, cheap, ear-grating soundtrack is "amazing" and "intense" and should be constantly used in new stuff even today.

Awesome work, FUNimation. Good going.

[kei17]

you can't blame Kikuchi for the music placements because he just composed stock music and it's other people who placed it.

I'm talking about Kikuchi's score for Z, not Kai 1.0. And to my knowledge the person who composes the score for a show also chooses where a piece of music plays. The exception to this is the Yamamoto scandal where they hastily grabbed Kikuchi's recordings of random noise and threw it in really quick. As a fair man I don't count that since it isn't his fault, not that his placements for Z were much better in my opinion.

You are wrong. In the Japanese anime industry, composers do not place their music themselves. In DBZ's case, Kikuchi composed the score, directors wrote in "music lines" in their storyboards which show when music plays, and then Shigeru Miyashita chose the tracks.

[Rocketman]

We've got people who think Linda Young's Freeza was a brilliantly portrayed masterpiece performance.

To be fair, people say the same about Nozawa.

[ABED]

We've got people who think Linda Young's Freeza was a brilliantly portrayed masterpiece performance.

To be fair, people say the same about Nozawa.

And the people who say that about Nozawa are right.

and Ugh, I can't believe you equivocated Young with Nozawa.