kid buu : the theories part2

[dragonballer]

theory 2: kid buu is stronger than goku
anime kid buu is cleary stronger than goku,so i won't talk anything about him.but what about manga kid buu?
technically,he is stronger than goku,not very stronger,but stronger.

he has more power than goku
kid was about to destroy the Earth and what was goku's reaction?

Spoiler:

instead of using ssj3+kamehameha goku begged.why? didn't he have the time?

let's see the speed of ssj3 transformation.

Spoiler:

it is faster than gotenks buu's attack.

how long do you need to charge a kamehameha?

Spoiler:

it is the time that kid buu needs to jump.

I think goku had a lot of time:

Spoiler:

it's simple the reason goku didn't deflect that energy sphere:he could't.

kid buu's energy sphere > goku ssj3's kamehameha + vegeta ssj2's final flash

if it is true,does it mean kid buu is a lot stronger than goku? no,it only proves that kid buu has more power than goku,not that goku can't win a fight against kid buu.

i have a good exemple to show the power gap between kid buu and goku: piccolo jr vs goku.

Spoiler:

goku's kamehameha stronger than piccolo's ultimate attack.we know goku has more power than piccolo,but goku couldn't defeat piccolo easily,piccolo even had a chance to win that fight and suvived two shots of kamehameha.that's the power gap between kid buu and goku.

he is faster than goku
vegetto said something very important about buu:

Spoiler:

buu is able to sense ki,but when he is fighting,he only depends on his eyes to follow his enemies.
don't you believe that is true? let's see how many times buu is caught off guard when he can't see his enemy:

Spoiler:

that also explains why gontenks was able to beat super buu up even they seens to have the same level of power. buu relies on his eyes while gotenks can sense the ki to predict buu's moviments,it makes a big difference in a hand to hand combat.

Spoiler:

if we analyse only the manga,we see that goku and kid buu are equals in a closet combat.wait,goku can antecipate buu,but buu can't,he only uses his eyes. their fight could only be balanced if buu is faster than goku.again,not very faster,but faster.

Spoiler:

could goku kill kid buu?
yes,he can. as i said kid buu is technically stronger than goku,but goku is a better fighter.however kid buu still has more power and he is faster than goku,if you don't believe that just because goku can kill buu,we have many exemples of weaker characthers that can kill stronger characters: piccolo-raditz,goku-cell and ssj gotenks-super buu.

[Darkprince410]

1) The Kamehamehas that Goku fired at Buu were clearly not at full strength, as he indicates as such when he talks to Vegeta after. In order to potentially stop Buu's planet-destroying blast, he'd need to put a considerable amount of power behind it, and given that we see, in situations like against Piccolo in the 23rd Budoukai, Vegeta in the Saiya-jin Saga, and repeatedly throughout the Cell Saga, that a Kamehameha that will expend a large amount of ki requires time to power-up, which is something they seemingly didn't have.

Besides, even if he had managed to stop the blast, it would have expended so much of his ki in the process that Buu would have been able to easily fire another one, take out the Earth, and then there'd be no survivors at all.

Besides, we've seen indications before of where even a person stronger than the blast can't stop or deflect it if there's enough force behind it. Look at Freeza with Goku's Genki Dama, or Cell with Tenshinhan's Ki Kou Hou. Even though they were seemingly more powerful than those attacks (Cell definitively so), they couldn't do anything against the force behind the attacks.

2) None of that actually indicates at all that Buu was faster than Goku. Just because Buu tends to rely on seeing rather than sensing ki doesn't mean that Buu was faster or anything along those lines. Likewise, we don't know if what Vegetto said relates to all Buus, since Pure Buu behaves quite differently than any of the other Buus ever have. He could just as easily and readily sense ki to follow Goku's movements.

As for Ssj3 Gotenks and Buu, given Buu's comments later, there's room for the possibility that Buu was holding back intentionally once he sensed Gohan's ki on Kaioushin Kai, as he indicated that he had started devising the concept of absorbing Gotenks the moment he sensed Gohan.

“It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

So Buu seemingly "losing" to Ssj3 Gotenks might have all been part of his plan.

[dragonballer]

1) The Kamehamehas that Goku fired at Buu were clearly not at full strength, as he indicates as such when he talks to Vegeta after. In order to potentially stop Buu's planet-destroying blast, he'd need to put a considerable amount of power behind it, and given that we see, in situations like against Piccolo in the 23rd Budoukai, Vegeta in the Saiya-jin Saga, and repeatedly throughout the Cell Saga, that a Kamehameha that will expend a large amount of ki requires time to power-up, which is something they seemingly didn't have.

Besides, even if he had managed to stop the blast, it would have expended so much of his ki in the process that Buu would have been able to easily fire another one, take out the Earth, and then there'd be no survivors at all.

Besides, we've seen indications before of where even a person stronger than the blast can't stop or deflect it if there's enough force behind it. Look at Freeza with Goku's Genki Dama, or Cell with Tenshinhan's Ki Kou Hou. Even though they were seemingly more powerful than those attacks (Cell definitively so), they couldn't do anything against the force behind the attacks.

2) None of that actually indicates at all that Buu was faster than Goku. Just because Buu tends to rely on seeing rather than sensing ki doesn't mean that Buu was faster or anything along those lines. Likewise, we don't know if what Vegetto said relates to all Buus, since Pure Buu behaves quite differently than any of the other Buus ever have. He could just as easily and readily sense ki to follow Goku's movements.

As for Ssj3 Gotenks and Buu, given Buu's comments later, there's room for the possibility that Buu was holding back intentionally once he sensed Gohan's ki on Kaioushin Kai, as he indicated that he had started devising the concept of absorbing Gotenks the moment he sensed Gohan.

“It’s your fault. You were stronger than I, who should have been the absolute strongest…When I sensed your distant presence, I started up on this strategy…In case maybe, just maybe, there was anyone stronger than myself…Then I hit upon it: if I absorbed that ‘Super Gotenks’ squirt I was fighting at the time, then no matter what kind of guy appeared, my throne as the strongest would not be shaken…”

So Buu seemingly "losing" to Ssj3 Gotenks might have all been part of his plan.

1) i don't know if that kamehameha was full power,but you gave me another ideia. every time goku uses a kamehameha as reaction he charges his kamehameha right after his enemy starts to charge their attack,if goku couldn't charge a kamehameha,then it means kid buu can charge his energy faster than goku.

if goku could stop that blast,i don't know why he didn't. it is the Earth and his sons that buu was about to destroy.the kamehameha would push the ball back to buu,destroying him for a while,they can do something before buu attack again.also, goku said they can't deflect that one,not that they can't deflect many of them.

in those cases,the weaker characther were using better techniques. so, is kid buu's energy ball better than kamehameha ? if it is true,why kid buu copied kamehameha?

2)ki sensing allows you to antecipate moves. before someone moves its hand,the ki goes to its hand,the eyes can only see the moviment after the enemy moves.we have a scene that shows kid buu was caught off guard by goku's kamehameha.

Spoiler:

buu was laughting as if he won the fight,then the kamehameha surprised buu. buu couldn't see it coming because of the smoke.

as for gotenks,i don't think everything was going according to buu's plan. buu wanted to wait,but after gotenks said buu was afraid of him,buu continued his attack. if buu could caught up,why didn't he defend the attacks? does he enjoy being punched? how was "being destroyed by a kamehameha and then vaporized" part of the plan?

[Pantalones]

1) i don't know if that kamehameha was full power,but you gave me another ideia. every time goku uses a kamehameha as reaction he charges his kamehameha right after his enemy starts to charge their attack,if goku couldn't charge a kamehameha,then it means kid buu can charge his energy faster than goku.

I think you've found the answer with this bit. SSj3 is a huge boost in power, but drains the user's ki so rapidly that you have to use it fast if you want to accomplish much of anything. If you need SSj3 just to fight evenly with someone... you're not going to be even with them for very long. And if you need SSj3's power just to overpower someone enough to win, you'd better do it right away or you won't get the chance (as Goku found out!)

So yeah, Buu most definitely COULD charge an attack faster than SSj3 Goku--because Goku would have to work against the energy drain of SSj3 in order to charge his full power into an attack, while Buu in any form wouldn't have that problem at all.

[Darkprince410]

1) We know for certain that neither of the two Kamehamehas Goku fired at Buu were at full power, because when Goku and Vegeta talk later about wiping him out with his full power, Goku comments that it's something he hasn't had the chance to do yet.

We know that the force behind the blast matters just as greatly as the amount of ki in the blast, for not only in the cases I mentioned earlier, but also in Goku's Genki Dama against Buu, we see a situation where Buu is able to hold back the ball even though it had more than enough genki in it to destroy him. The only reason it didn't at the start was because Goku was too weak to throw it. Therefore, a situation of the reserve must also be possible, where even if there's not enough power in the blast to kill a person, said person still couldn't stop it because there's so much force behind it.

So even if Goku professed he couldn't knock back the blast doesn't mean that the blast was more powerful than he was.

He could have copied the Kamehameha simply because it fired more quickly than his blast did. Look how long it took him to charge it up vs. the Kamehameha he used against Goku. For a blast he was trying to quickly fire at a target, the Kamehameha is a far more effective technique.

2) Ki sensing has never been shown to allow someone to anticipate moves in such a manner, and outside of when Raditz was reading Piccolo's Makankosappo, there wasn't any indication of anyone being able to read when someone's ki was being directed to a specific body part to indicate an attack was coming. The only two things that the Z Senshi (or anyone that used a scouter or ki detector) used ki sensing for in battle was determining strength levels of the individual and detecting their opponent's location alongside their other senses.

We've seen it numerous times before, even when those involved are notably good at sensing ki, that they can't react to a blast if it's fired fast enough. For example, we have Ssj Goku getting completely caught off guard by an attack from 70% full power Freeza and getting launched back by it. If Goku had been able to anticipate it like you're suggesting, then he should have been able to put up some kind of defense, but he clearly couldn't.

Spoiler:

Freeza simply fired the blast too quickly for Goku to react, and in the same vein, Goku could have easily fired that Kamehameha too quickly for Buu to have reacted.

When Vegetto was berating Gohan Buu about using his eyes, all he was simply saying was that he was wasn't bothering to utilize all his senses to detect Vegetto's movements, and that was one of his downfalls. It'd be near impossible for Buu to find him in a cloud of steam while only using his eyesight, whereas Vegetto wasn't using his eyes and was instead using his ki sensing abilities to find where Buu was in the cloud. He wasn't anticipating Buu's movements before he was making them or anything like that, just simply able to find him easily in the steam cloud despite not being able to see.

Think of ki sensing as radar, unaffected by things that might block a person's view. They've not ever been shown to use it in an anticipatory situation like you're suggesting.

[Kamiccolo9]

Just as a point, Pure Buu can clearly sense ki. After he blows up the Earth, you see him look around until he locks onto Goku and Vegeta.