Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
Before the fight, he said something like, "I haven't exactly kept up on my training. I think I can still turn Super Saiyan, though." Then, when it was needed, he used it. Nothing was mentioned or shown one way or another as to how long he could stay Super Saiyan. It wasn't relevant to what was going on in the moment.
What we do know, through his actions and some dialog, is that Gohan is still naturally strong compared to the majority of Freeza's men, he's quite experienced in fighting, and he could become a Super Saiyan if he needs to. It's just that he's really rusty from not training due to him being a family man.
Regarding Piccolo:
Spoiler:
The idea that Piccolo fighting hundreds of guys, no matter how weak they were or how smart he fought, was still a huge factor in the fight. Shisame was fresh so he had the advantage from a stamina standpoint. Having someone who actually studied martial arts on the film probably had something to do with making multiple opponents and stamina a factor in this fight where it might not have been considered in previous stories.
Spoiler:
Thanks for the detail. So Piccolo takes the senzu after fighting Shisami correct?
ekrolo2 wrote:How does one review that basically just repeats everything we know from the summary mean people's "overreactions" were wrong? Hell, since when does any review ever negate some ones opinion on something?
Because it backs up the fact that, unless you've seen the film, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Seeing is far different than reading a very dry summary.
So I don't know what I'm talking about when I say that: Freeza's "training" is a big load of bull that's never explored at all, Goten, Trunks and Buu's explanation for not being there is dumb,Goku and Vegeta still not being able to cooperate after doing it just fine and dandy against Buu makes no sense, Freeza being a total chump who's treated as a slightly less embarrassing punching bag is a waste of bringing him back (the podcast even said as much), Vegeta's "big moment" is him beating down on not only a clearly inferior enemy, but one Goku softened up for him and finally, Whis' time travel being the worst power you can possibly give to a character?
Right, yeah. Even if the character interaction and set pieces are good enough, I seriously doubt it'll fix any of these issues.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Its not just one review though. Everyone who has seen film has had nothing but good things to say about it. Sure they have aknowledged flaws but I have not read a single person who has seen the film say its sucks or Toriyama should retire, which were making the rounds when the summary was first released. So yes people were overreacting. There is a big difference between reading a film synopsis and actually watching it. And you cannot have an opinion on the film until you have actually scene it.
Before the fight, he said something like, "I haven't exactly kept up on my training. I think I can still turn Super Saiyan, though." Then, when it was needed, he used it. Nothing was mentioned or shown one way or another as to how long he could stay Super Saiyan. It wasn't relevant to what was going on in the moment.
What we do know, through his actions and some dialog, is that Gohan is still naturally strong compared to the majority of Freeza's men, he's quite experienced in fighting, and he could become a Super Saiyan if he needs to. It's just that he's really rusty from not training due to him being a family man.
Regarding Piccolo:
Spoiler:
The idea that Piccolo fighting hundreds of guys, no matter how weak they were or how smart he fought, was still a huge factor in the fight. Shisame was fresh so he had the advantage from a stamina standpoint. Having someone who actually studied martial arts on the film probably had something to do with making multiple opponents and stamina a factor in this fight where it might not have been considered in previous stories.
Spoiler:
Thanks for the detail. So Piccolo takes the senzu after fighting Shisami correct?
Did Freeza beat SSJ Gohan or was he in base?
Honestly...
Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure everyone ate a senzu after Shisame went down. I think Gohan had two in a row because of what happens to him. Jaco rejected the Senzu offered to him, which is important later on in the film. I don't remember for sure, though.
Gohan and Freeza didn't really "fight" as much as Freeza just was like, "I'mma kill you now," and hit him before anyone could react.
ekrolo2 wrote:So I don't know what I'm talking about when I say that
Right, yeah. Even if the character interaction and set pieces are good enough, I seriously doubt it'll fix any of these issues.
Frankly, no, you have absolutely no clue. You haven't seen it. Maybe it doesn't fix those 'issues', but maybe you think "you know what, that film was exceptionally enjoyable, so maybe it doesn't matter so much".
Right now, you're just a pessimist drawing conclusions from a dry plot summary put together from the memory of one viewing of the film.
If there's one thing you should be taking from the podcast, it's that Julian very much enjoyed the film. As did Kei, as did Josh, as did Ryan, as did everyone who saw the film yesterday, too. Maybe focus on that for a while instead of incessantly regurgitating baseless negativity.
ekrolo2 wrote:How does one review that basically just repeats everything we know from the summary mean people's "overreactions" were wrong? Hell, since when does any review ever negate some ones opinion on something?
Because it backs up the fact that, unless you've seen the film, you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Seeing is far different than reading a very dry summary.
So I don't know what I'm talking about when I say that: Freeza's "training" is a big load of bull that's never explored at all, Goten, Trunks and Buu's explanation for not being there is dumb,Goku and Vegeta still not being able to cooperate after doing it just fine and dandy against Buu makes no sense, Freeza being a total chump who's treated as a slightly less embarrassing punching bag is a waste of bringing him back (the podcast even said as much), Vegeta's "big moment" is him beating down on not only a clearly inferior enemy, but one Goku softened up for him and finally, Whis' time travel being the worst power you can possibly give to a character?
Right, yeah. Even if the character interaction and set pieces are good enough, I seriously doubt it'll fix any of these issues.
If you haven't seen the movie, then you don't have an opinion of the movie. You have an opinion of what others have told you about the movie. A Description or a plot synopsis is never the same as seeing it yourself. You need to see the film with Open eyes, not be predisposed to hating it
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Its not just one review though. Everyone who has seen film has had nothing but good things to say about it. Sure they have aknowledged flaws but I have not read a single person who has seen the film say its sucks or Toriyama should retire, which were making the rounds when the summary was first released. So yes people were overreacting. There is a big difference between reading a film synopsis and actually watching it. And you cannot have an opinion on the film until you have actually scene it.
I seriously doubt "everyone" who's seen it loved it as much as you make it out to be, sure the vast majority may like it but everyone? Not a chance, also while I can't formulate an opinion on the movie itself (yet) I can formulate one on its various plot points, most of which are horrendous to me and I seriously doubt can be fixed by anything short of a 1) total re-write which won't happen because the thing is done or 2) a theoretical extended cut.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
Before the fight, he said something like, "I haven't exactly kept up on my training. I think I can still turn Super Saiyan, though." Then, when it was needed, he used it. Nothing was mentioned or shown one way or another as to how long he could stay Super Saiyan. It wasn't relevant to what was going on in the moment.
What we do know, through his actions and some dialog, is that Gohan is still naturally strong compared to the majority of Freeza's men, he's quite experienced in fighting, and he could become a Super Saiyan if he needs to. It's just that he's really rusty from not training due to him being a family man.
Regarding Piccolo:
Spoiler:
The idea that Piccolo fighting hundreds of guys, no matter how weak they were or how smart he fought, was still a huge factor in the fight. Shisame was fresh so he had the advantage from a stamina standpoint. Having someone who actually studied martial arts on the film probably had something to do with making multiple opponents and stamina a factor in this fight where it might not have been considered in previous stories.
Spoiler:
Thanks for the detail. So Piccolo takes the senzu after fighting Shisami correct?
Did Freeza beat SSJ Gohan or was he in base?
Honestly...
Spoiler:
I'm pretty sure everyone ate a senzu after Shisame went down. I think Gohan had two in a row because of what happens to him. Jaco rejected the Senzu offered to him, which is important later on in the film. I don't remember for sure, though.
Gohan and Freeza didn't really "fight" as much as Freeza just was like, "I'mma kill you now," and hit him before anyone could react.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Its not just one review though. Everyone who has seen film has had nothing but good things to say about it. Sure they have aknowledged flaws but I have not read a single person who has seen the film say its sucks or Toriyama should retire, which were making the rounds when the summary was first released. So yes people were overreacting. There is a big difference between reading a film synopsis and actually watching it. And you cannot have an opinion on the film until you have actually scene it.
I seriously doubt "everyone" who's seen it loved it as much as you make it out to be, sure the vast majority may like it but everyone? Not a chance, also while I can't formulate an opinion on the movie itself (yet) I can formulate one on its various plot points, most of which are horrendous to me and I seriously doubt can be fixed by anything short of a 1) total re-write which won't happen because the thing is done or 2) a theoretical extended cut.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Its not just one review though. Everyone who has seen film has had nothing but good things to say about it. Sure they have aknowledged flaws but I have not read a single person who has seen the film say its sucks or Toriyama should retire, which were making the rounds when the summary was first released. So yes people were overreacting. There is a big difference between reading a film synopsis and actually watching it. And you cannot have an opinion on the film until you have actually scene it.
I seriously doubt "everyone" who's seen it loved it as much as you make it out to be, sure the vast majority may like it but everyone? Not a chance, also while I can't formulate an opinion on the movie itself (yet) I can formulate one on its various plot points, most of which are horrendous to me and I seriously doubt can be fixed by anything short of a 1) total re-write which won't happen because the thing is done or 2) a theoretical extended cut.
Name one negative review.
Don't need to, there is no such thing a universally liked or disliked movie and that is a fact. 99.9% may like or dislike it but there will always, always be ones who disagree with the opinions of the majority. I don't need to "name a negative review" to prove this, its simply common sense. Nor does everyone who liked/disliked it need to write reviews to prove their points.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
The movie was a lot of fun. Some of the little things I forgot to mention in my video, both good and bad, are things that some people will enjoy and some people wouldn't enjoy. I take the depiction of martial arts semi seriously. When producers throw me a bone, I'm happy but I'm not angry when it's completely unrealistic in anime. So, the choreography and some of the power changes that I'm noticing are in favor of my tastes. Someone who has been theorizing Power Levels for fifteen years will likely be super annoyed by those very same changes.
My nitpicks were more along the lines of how certain shots were framed, but most fans who like 16:9 DBZ won't notice or care in the slightest.
Overall, I very much enjoyed the movie and it seems that everyone in attendance had a good time. I'm sure that the majority of fans will enjoy the film.
EDIT: Zombie:
Spoiler:
No. He had turned back to normal right after defeating Shisame.
Don't need to, there is no such thing a universally liked or disliked movie and that is a fact. 99.9% may like or dislike it but there will always, always be ones who disagree with the opinions of the majority. I don't need to "name a negative review" to prove this, its simply common sense. Nor does everyone who liked/disliked it need to write reviews to prove their points.
Yes, but everyone who's said anything about it has had a positive opinion about it. "Some people don't like it" can be said about every film in existence. It says absolutely nothing of a film's qaulity
Don't need to, there is no such thing a universally liked or disliked movie and that is a fact. 99.9% may like or dislike it but there will always, always be ones who disagree with the opinions of the majority. I don't need to "name a negative review" to prove this, its simply common sense. Nor does everyone who liked/disliked it need to write reviews to prove their points.
Yes, but everyone who's said anything about it has had a positive opinion about it. "Some people don't like it" can be said about every film in existence. It says absolutely nothing of a film's qaulity
I know it does, I just wish people stopped using it as an excuse for why a movie is good/bad. That's was the entire point of my statement, I don't care if everyone here loved it, as far as my movie going experience has gone that means nothing at all to me. That's not to say I won't give it my damn hardest to be as fair as I can to it and try to like FnF when it gets released for public viewing, but as I said above, certain things just rub me the wrong way and I don't think anything can change that.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
I can see how people who want to enjoy/have seen the movie are getting sick of the pessimist's, but I'm getting really sick of the people looking down on them. Yes seeing a movie is different than reading the plot points, but the plot points is what's going to happen. If that's unappealing, then upon viewing that opinion will not change. However not watching a movie, especially a DBZ movie means you'll miss out on the animation, the fight scenes, the character interactions that I doubt the summary touched upon. I'm someone who isn't really fond of the plot and a lot of details, but that's not all I go to see a DBZ movie for. I had similar issues with Battle of Gods, yet I still had a good time seeing it in theaters. When I see the movie I'm bound to enjoy it, but I still won't like those details I've harped on before. Won't like no boys and Boo, won't like lack of explanation, won't like the side character treatment, won't like the climax being stomp between someone fresh vs someone weakened, etc. I still will enjoy my time with the characters, the fight scenes, the spectacle, the humour most likely, the animation, the voices, etc.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Overall who seems the better fighter between Roshi, Kuririn and Tenshinhan ?
What i mean is who has the fewest problems for beating the hundred guys ?
Thanks a lot.
Baggie_Saiyan wrote:Its not just one review though. Everyone who has seen film has had nothing but good things to say about it. Sure they have aknowledged flaws but I have not read a single person who has seen the film say its sucks or Toriyama should retire, which were making the rounds when the summary was first released. So yes people were overreacting. There is a big difference between reading a film synopsis and actually watching it. And you cannot have an opinion on the film until you have actually scene it.
I seriously doubt "everyone" who's seen it loved it as much as you make it out to be, sure the vast majority may like it but everyone? Not a chance, also while I can't formulate an opinion on the movie itself (yet) I can formulate one on its various plot points, most of which are horrendous to me and I seriously doubt can be fixed by anything short of a 1) total re-write which won't happen because the thing is done or 2) a theoretical extended cut.
Okay let me put it this way so far I have not seen on single person say they didn't like the film, and I was on twitter and various other social media for a good few hours yesterday. You are also ignoring the fact the Dragonball is all about the fights and character interactions it's not known for having complex or though-provoking plots. Why does it matter all of sudden Freeza gets strong in 4 months, when Goku randomly appears with SS3 with zero exploration on how he achieved it or Vegeta goes off to space and does god knows what and suddenly can become a Super Saiyan. Or Gohan sitting down for a long time is now suddenly a match for Buu?
As for Goten and Trunks not being there, they are awful in field and generally pretty stupid, they have one thing and thats fusion once that where's off they are nothing. They are more of a liability than anything, Gohan leaving them behind was smart.
Wow, so Gohan isn't such a weakling in this film actually, it's just that Frieza played dirty on him? WIth that and Sorbet's attack on Goku, Frieza and his men are quite the dishonorable guys, lol.
Thanks Kendamu for answering the Gohan and Piccolo questions.
Marco Polo wrote:Wow, so Gohan isn't such a weakling in this film actually, it's just that Freeza played dirty on him? WIth that and Sorbet's attack on Goku, Freeza and his men are quite the dishonorable guys, lol.
Yeah really, between those two things and:
Spoiler:
his ragequit after fighting Vegeta
Freeza isn't messing around this time around, and doesn't mind being cheap.
