Discussion regarding the entirety of the franchise in a general (meta) sense, including such aspects as: production, trends, merchandise, fan culture, and more.
FoolsGil wrote:Official Timeline? Just because it fits in a certain place in the doesn't mean it's official. You claim that Gohan's power levels aren't legit, but you have no answer for Gohan's tail, or Goku's super impotency, so how official is your anime timeline really?
What are you talking about? The timeline is in Daizenshuu 7, and it was updated in a Toriyama Exhibit, and was reused in Chozenshuu 4. It's all over the official guidebooks, it's not my timeline, it's as official as you can get.
As for Gohan's tail? It just grew back, and they cut it later. We are talking about a 3-year gap, anything could have happened there. As for Goku, he didn't need to use SS against base Coola, and he used it after he saw that he couldn't beat him even with Kaio-ken. Vegeta isn't there because he is training in space (as the anime shows). The V-Jump battle powers about Coola Kikosentai contradict what we see in the movie, since it is stated in the movie itself that M5 happens after the battle on Namek. But the movie fits perfectly in the anime continuity.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
FoolsGil wrote:Official Timeline? Just because it fits in a certain place in the doesn't mean it's official. You claim that Gohan's power levels aren't legit, but you have no answer for Gohan's tail, or Goku's super impotency, so how official is your anime timeline really?
What are you talking about? The timeline is in Daizenshuu 7, and it was updated in a Toriyama Exhibit, and was reused in Chozenshuu 4. It's all over the official guidebooks, it's not my timeline, it's as official as you can get.
As for Gohan's tail? It just grew back, and they cut it later. We are talking about a 3-year gap, anything could have happened there. As for Goku, he didn't need to use SS against base Coola, and he used it after he saw that he couldn't beat him even with Kaio-ken. Vegeta isn't there because he is training in space (as the anime shows). The V-Jump battle powers about Coola Kikosentai contradict what we see in the movie, since it is stated in the movie itself that M5 happens after the battle on Namek. But the movie fits perfectly in the anime continuity.
I can give you Gohan, I suppose. Why he wouldn't get rid of a weakness immediately while he's preparing for a fight with the Androids is beyond me. But Goku had to be enraged to achieve Super Saiyan status again. Clip in question https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3lC3SPxcU4
Where was the Son Goku who accessed Super Saiyan instantly while talking to Trunks, who've even stated he got the hang of transforming back in space? Because this Son Goku needed a poor man's Linkin Park and a dead bird to pull it off.
He just didn't transform right away (which happens in the anime all the time), and they made the scene more dramatic because it was the first transformation in the movies, just like it happens with SS2 Gohan in M9 & SS3 Goku in M12.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
Captain Sauza wrote:As far as I know there's no DB media outside the video games where Freeza or King Cold acknowledge Cooler's existence. Do you think we'll ever get a DB movie where Cooler will get a name drop by one of them or do you think he'll forever remain the estranged brother and son that nobody talks about? Not even Toriyama mentions him.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy.
He's still one of the most "canon" movie villains. His first movie (not sure about the second) doesn't conflict with the Toriyama timeline. And he was in GT, so if you consider stuff like SSJ4 and Bebi canon then by extension you consider Cooler canon as well.
"I will literally dress as Goku and walk around jumping up and down, pretending to fly, in public if this ever gets an official release"
Captain Sauza wrote:As far as I know there's no DB media outside the video games where Freeza or King Cold acknowledge Cooler's existence. Do you think we'll ever get a DB movie where Cooler will get a name drop by one of them or do you think he'll forever remain the estranged brother and son that nobody talks about? Not even Toriyama mentions him.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy.
He's still one of the most "canon" movie villains. His first movie (not sure about the second) doesn't conflict with the Toriyama timeline. And he was in GT, so if you consider stuff like SSJ4 and Bebi canon then by extension you consider Cooler canon as well.
I remember seeing him pop up or a second in GT, and being confused.
I also remember not seeing him at all in Movie 12, despite being on the poster. Good times.
M5 does not jive particularly well with the main continuity:
- Though the Anime/Movies include a lot more of the Saiyans fighting untransformed, it is never ever pushed to the same degree as it is in M5. The reason why Goku struggles to transform is because the movie is a fast paced retelling/recreation of the Freeza arc, so it repeats that scene from the Anime accordingly. This is a perfectly acceptable design decision for the movie, but it would not have been an issue for Goku if this indeed took place after Trunks kills Freeza.
- Haiya Dragon existing references events in movies that could not have taken place. You could pretend there's an alternate version of those events that justifies it, but the more convoluted the explanation, the less likely it is to be true.
- Gohan's age. I'm not just talking hair here. He is physically taller and slightly more matured when Freeza arrives on Earth than he is on Namek. M5 has him looking just as he did on Namek (height is the strongest case here), plus a tail for some reason (though that is less of a hit than it could be).
- Coola makes no reference to his father (and the whole "being dead" thing). You can try to explain this away, but see my bolded statement above.
- Unless there is something I'm missing (I have not watched the anime for 'Z' past the Saiyan arc in a very long time), Vegeta should be on Earth for that entire time period. I guess I recall some filler of him turning Super Saiyan in space, but I'm not sure how much credit that gets.
- Gohan's battle power. You could try to work it around, but Coola's men could not have been stronger than Freeza's first form. Gohan made Freeza's third form sweat. If we're going by filler as well, he even fought reasonably well against Freeza's final form. Seems pretty weird to make Gohan a pushover after all of that.
I can see why the guidebooks would make an error on this, given the movie appears to be fine at a glance, but the finer details make it a struggle to fit in. Like the other movies (besides 9 and 13, I suppose) it wasn't designed or written to necessarily fit into the continuity. Just to entertain.
I don't see why anybody would be expecting a Toriyama work to reference Coola. It'd be like asking why Christopher Nolan's Batman films don't reference Danny DeVito's Penguin. And in both cases, the answer would be the same: that character does not exist in this continuity, so of course that character won't be referenced.
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Captain Sauza wrote:As far as I know there's no DB media outside the video games where Freeza or King Cold acknowledge Cooler's existence. Do you think we'll ever get a DB movie where Cooler will get a name drop by one of them or do you think he'll forever remain the estranged brother and son that nobody talks about? Not even Toriyama mentions him.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy.
He's still one of the most "canon" movie villains. His first movie (not sure about the second) doesn't conflict with the Toriyama timeline. And he was in GT, so if you consider stuff like SSJ4 and Bebi canon then by extension you consider Cooler canon as well.
Oh yeah, there's a brief shot where he appears next to Anroid 19 or something, right?
Gaffer Tape wrote:I don't see why anybody would be expecting a Toriyama work to reference Coola. It'd be like asking why Christopher Nolan's Batman films don't reference Danny DeVito's Penguin. And in both cases, the answer would be the same: that character does not exist in this continuity, so of course that character won't be referenced.
He did the design for Cooler and his transformation, though. Would have thought he'd have at least something to say about the character due to that.
"We are Cooler's Armored Squadron!" *performs Sauza fighting pose*
Gaffer Tape wrote:I don't see why anybody would be expecting a Toriyama work to reference Coola. It'd be like asking why Christopher Nolan's Batman films don't reference Danny DeVito's Penguin. And in both cases, the answer would be the same: that character does not exist in this continuity, so of course that character won't be referenced.
He did the design for Cooler and his transformation, though. Would have thought he'd have at least something to say about the character due to that.
But just because Toei hired him to do some design work doesn't necessarily follow that he considers it part of his Dragon Ball story, any more than his doing character designs for Dragon Quest means that.
Well, maybe it's a little more likely... =P
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Bulma has yet to acknowledge her sister Tights. Vegeta never mentioned his brother Tarble despite being a good guy/anti-hero for 8 or so years. Maybe siblings aren't valued in the DB Universe.
swimtrunks wrote:Bulma has yet to acknowledge her sister Tights. Vegeta never mentioned his brother Tarble despite being a good guy/anti-hero for 8 or so years. Maybe siblings aren't valued in the DB Universe.
Heck, look no further than Goku and Raditz. After three episodes, you could barely be blamed if you (and Goku) forgot that he had a brother.
I think Cooler could be referenced and acknowledged. As far as I know there is no law of writing or the universe that forces a Cooler in Toriyamaverse to be the exact same Cooler from movie 5. I think he could be talked about and referenced easily and nothing would be wrong with that. I mean we have Tights and Tarble, they've never been mentioned before yet here they are, why can't that be the same for Cooler. In fact I'd find that kinda cool (Pardon the pun there.) Like, they don't mention Cooler because maybe he is a traitor, or an outcast. Cold and Freeza keep contact with him but officially they don't acknowledge him! Oh jeez we're creating a head canon....Stopping now!
Anyways yeah, I see nothing wrong with Freeza or King Cold acknowledging Cooler, I'd actually appreciate it he was referenced, even if in a off hand remark by one of the two like "Freeza I wouldn't do that...you don't wish to end up like your older brother do you?" something like that!
Going on hiatus. Too much stuff in RL to deal with for me to keep up with posts here for now. Was fun, hope you all have a nice day and future! Volt signing off.
With the many years on the net I've spent...I've learned being polite takes you much further then being a dick. So...lesson here is! Don't be a dick!
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swimtrunks wrote:Bulma has yet to acknowledge her sister Tights. Vegeta never mentioned his brother Tarble despite being a good guy/anti-hero for 8 or so years. Maybe siblings aren't valued in the DB Universe.
Heck, look no further than Goku and Raditz. After three episodes, you could barely be blamed if you (and Goku) forgot that he had a brother.
I doubt Goku would want to to remind anyone who is brother is, considering how much of a despicable prick Raditz was. And there wasn't really much exposition he could provide about his family or the Saiyans, considering that according to Dragon Ball Minus, as soon as Raditz practically knew how to walk, he sent to conquer planets and fend for himself.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Those are all good points, except that they assume that in order for it to take place in the anime's continuity, it must be totally consistent with all aspects of it. I would argue that this is not a justifiable stance with which to approach the problem (or at least not so justifiable that it can be assumed without question), given that the show has a widely-known track record of bad continuity within itself and/or undefined logic in its sequence of events. See: the Garlic Jr arc. The presence of Gohan's dragon and the references to the first movie are problematic on several levels, but do you really think the writers made the conscious decision to shift into an alternate universe for ten episodes? Of course not. They wrote an arc to fill in the time-skip while Goku was on Yardrat. The fact that it doesn't gel with previous events is immaterial. In this mode of thinking, Movie 5's vague correspondence with the anime timeline is sufficient for its inclusion.
I realize this is basically a longform argument for the MST3K Mantra, but I believe that such a position has significant merit in a franchise like DB, where continuity has never been as heavily regulated as in other franchises like Star Wars. In other words: if it fits at a glance but doesn't fit in the details, the glance is what's important.
To a strong man, the end justifies the means. To a stronger man, the means justify the end.
Captain Sauza wrote:As far as I know there's no DB media outside the video games where Freeza or King Cold acknowledge Cooler's existence. Do you think we'll ever get a DB movie where Cooler will get a name drop by one of them or do you think he'll forever remain the estranged brother and son that nobody talks about? Not even Toriyama mentions him.
I kinda feel sorry for the guy.
Only if by Toei without any Toriyama's participation. In Toriyama's mind Cooler doesn't exist. As well as Launch.
Marco Polo wrote:Fan: "Do you think Freeza or Cold will ever acknowledge Cooler?"
Akira Toriyama: "Who??"
Exactly
mAcChaos wrote:The movie poster for Revival of F said "youngest child" so that pretty much confirms Cooler is a thing.
Movie poster may say anything it wants. It is not Toriyama who said it.
TheDevilsCorpse wrote:
SpiritBombTriumphant wrote:That really says something since we already know he doesn't care about Dragon Ball.
That's a fairly rude thing to say, seeing how it was was the mistreatment of the franchise in Dragon Ball Evolution that got him fired up for everything he's added to the franchise in the last 2-3 years.
He is too late to the party though. Dragon Ball Evolution came out in 2009.
FoolsGil wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
FoolsGil wrote:Except that Gohan had a power level higher well over 200,000 after the Freeza Saga, While the Armored Squadron members are all under 200,000. Yet in Cooler's Revenge Gohan was clearly manhandled and needed Piccolo to save him. Other discrepancies include Gohan having a tail again and Goku needing to be enraged to unlock Super Saiyan again, problems already dealt with in the past sagas. That's why Cooler's Revenge is in its own separate Universe, except for the GT Universe, which is separate from the normal anime timeline.
The official timeline of the franchise places it within the anime continuity, Coola appears in GT, and he is also mentioned in Xenoverse. Meaning that the V-Jump battle powers are just wrong.
Official Timeline? Just because it fits in a certain place in the doesn't mean it's official. You claim that Gohan's power levels aren't legit, but you have no answer for Gohan's tail, or Goku's super impotency, so how official is your anime timeline really?
All timelines are official. Only fan-made ones are not.
Captain Sauza wrote:He did the design for Cooler and his transformation, though. Would have thought he'd have at least something to say about the character due to that.
He did Broly's design as well. I doubt that he knows who Broly is though.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Sinestro wrote:
swimtrunks wrote:Bulma has yet to acknowledge her sister Tights. Vegeta never mentioned his brother Tarble despite being a good guy/anti-hero for 8 or so years. Maybe siblings aren't valued in the DB Universe.
Heck, look no further than Goku and Raditz. After three episodes, you could barely be blamed if you (and Goku) forgot that he had a brother.
I doubt Goku would want to to remind anyone who is brother is, considering how much of a despicable prick Raditz was. And there wasn't really much exposition he could provide about his family or the Saiyans, considering that according to Dragon Ball Minus, as soon as Raditz practically knew how to walk, he sent to conquer planets and fend for himself.
Goku accepted Vegeta who was much worse than Raditz.
Marco Polo wrote:
Hellspawn28 wrote:Cool to see Gohan have a kill for once. He hasn't killed someone since Cell (or Broli if you want to count in General).
Gaffer Tape wrote:I don't see why anybody would be expecting a Toriyama work to reference Coola.
He referenced Bardock, so I wouldn't be surprised if he referenced Coola.
IIRC Toriyama liked Bardock from the very beginning, so referencing him was also a nod of sympathy to the creators. It wasn't the case with other characters.
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