Real Revival Of [F] plot holes/discrepencies

[Confidence Matters]

I think it's a perfect enough reason for him to consider training when he hadn't before. He already thought he was powerful enough, following being turned into a cyborg, to take on Goku, and he had his father to fall back on should he need help.

Goku reaching Boo levels is not a better motivator for Freea than Goku surpassing Freeza, beating the shit out of him, humiliating him and making him beg for mercy. If Goku surpassing him, humiliating him, beating the shit out of him, and then making him beg for mercy isn't the thing that pushed Freeza to train, it is very implausible that he would consider doing so after learning Goku beat Boo. One is ultra-personal, the other is not. His ultra-personal motivation didn't push him to train, there's just no way logically that getting motivated to train because Goku beat Boo would be more motivating than that. There's just no way.

If he had never trained before in his life, why would he suddenly do so following the fight on Namek if he believed that he's powerful enough to beat Goku on his own?

Nothing indicates Freeza thought he was powerful enough to handle SSJ1 Goku. Freeza saying "And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone." doesn't sound like he was confident in his chances. keywords: "I think," "probably." In contrast to "We can DEFINITELY defeat him if we go at him together." Key word here: "Definitely."

He also must have known what the fuck murdering everyone Goku loves would do to Goku's power level since he witnessed it first hand when he killed Krillin.

This establishes Freeza still wasn't too sure how he'd fare against Goku SSJ1 again alone, and knowing Freeza's character at that point, he would have been too proud to attack Goku with Cold anyhow, seeing as a super saiyan turned up and Freeza didn't request any type of help despite knowing the horrors of Super Saiyan Trunks.

With the situation of Revival of F, he had no alternative to it. He had just learned that Goku had defeated one of the only two individuals in the universe that his father warned him never to bother with, which in turn instantly tells Freeza that Goku's become far more powerful than before. What other alternative did Freeza have then if he wanted to get revenge?

[/quote]

All I'm saying is that Freeza training should have logically happened back in the Future Trunks saga and it not happening creates a discrepancy in ROF. Which means ROF has a plot hole.

[BlackMagick]

All I'm saying is that Freeza training should have logically happened back in the Future Trunks saga and it not happening creates a discrepancy in ROF. Which means ROF has a plot hole.

And that's fine to think that, but no one seems to agree. Not trying to sound condescending or anything, pal but the direct definition of a plot hole is a gap or inconsistency in a story that creates a paradox that cannot be reconciled with any explanation. There is a logical explanation for everything you've mentioned, ergo no plot hole.

Sure, in light of the new film, Freeza's training should've logically happened during the Future Trunks saga, but it didn't and there is a reason it didn't happen. Also keep in mind that explanations in-universe aren't completely necessary for every little string of detail. Even if this contradicted the source material at all, it's still not a big enough inconsistency to even be considered a plot hole.

[Darkprince410]

Goku reaching Boo levels is not a better motivator for Freea than Goku surpassing Freeza, beating the shit out of him, humiliating him and making him beg for mercy. If Goku surpassing him, humiliating him, beating the shit out of him, and then making him beg for mercy isn't the thing that pushed Freeza to train, it is very implausible that he would consider doing so after learning Goku beat Boo. One is ultra-personal, the other is not. His ultra-personal motivation didn't push him to train, there's just no way logically that getting motivated to train because Goku beat Boo would be more motivating than that. There's just no way.

His ultra-personal motivation was a moot point because he felt confident that he could could handle him as is with the strength acquired from being turned into a cyborg.

Nothing indicates Freeza thought he was powerful enough to handle SSJ1 Goku. Freeza saying "And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone." doesn't sound like he was confident in his chances. keywords: "I think," "probably." In contrast to "We can DEFINITELY defeat him if we go at him together." Key word here: "Definitely."

Definition of probably according to the Oxford dictionary:

Probably
adverb Almost certainly; as far as one knows or can tell

So as far as Freeza was concerned, he was all but 100% certain he could handle Goku on his own with his new strength, and even if he couldn't, he had his father there as well. Besides, given the wording of his line, he likely intended for he and his dad to fight together (which he said would "definitely" be enough to beat him), and his later comment was just an attempt at "humble" boasting.

All I'm saying is that Freeza training should have logically happened back in the Future Trunks saga and it not happening creates a discrepancy in ROF. Which means ROF has a plot hole.

It's not a plot hole, because you're presuming to know the character would have considered one instance as far more a cause to train than the other, when nothing actually points to that being the case at all. Why would he feel the need to train if he already is confident he could beat Goku on his own, and is certain that he could with the help of his father? Given that he indicated his reason for training is because he needed to in order to surpass Goku, one could logically deduce that he didn't train beforehand because he didn't feel the need to before.

Besides, going back to the whole "crushing defeat" aspect of why you feel he should have trained after Namek, don't you think it's very possible that part of the reason he decided to train during Revival of F is because he received yet another crushing defeat against a Super Saiya-jin? He was already defeated by one, came back even stronger than before, and then proceeded to be defeated a second time (this time actually killing him) and sent to Hell for over a decade, only to be revived again to learn that one of the ones that had defeated him before had gained the power to defeat an insanely powerful enemy.

Now with no alternative available to him, training is his only option to be able to get strong enough to exact his revenge. With the post-Namek situation, he had an alternative because he was almost certain he could beat Goku on his own, and was certain he could beat him with his dad's help, but with the Revival of F situation, training was his only way of being able to get somewhere.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

The Mecha power-up was obviously huge enough to the point where he thought it'd be enough in his rematch with Goku.

It goes along with what we see in RoF as well. Instead of taking time to develop his Golden form, he went straight to earth to fight Goku.

[EmmaWinters]

Is this from an official source? Looks like a fan scanlation. Can I get a link to the official manga/website?

It is, but the translation is accurate. Key word being 最新の再生装置 saishin no saisei sōchi, which is literally latest regeneration equipment.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

That creates a horrible inconsistency in the fact that SSJ1 Goku defeated BOTH of them without any explanation (Goku didn't gain a zenkai as 1. he didn't experience a near-death experience against Freeza and 2. it would have been officially stated somewhere).

Goku had been training for 2 years.

And if Freeza did somehow become stronger from the mecha parts, he must have known Goku's true power and must have known it would still not be enough.

How would Freeza know his true power? He can't sense ki, and he didn't have any scouters around to read SS Goku's power on Namek.

Since it clearly wasn't, hence how Goku was able to kill him. In fact, Freeza even doubts his chances, saying "I can probably go alone." That doesn't sound confident at all. If he were truly arrogant and confident in his "powerup," he would have definitely believed he can take on Goku alone.

This proves that Freeza knew he still wasn't superior to Goku and STILL didn't think about training a LITTLE bit.

The fact that he brings up going against Goku alone proves he wanted to settle that score, and yet he wasn't motivated to train a TINY bit to beat Goku?

He wasn't fully confident to his new power-up, which is why he brought his dad with him.

Inconsistency still stands.

How is a stupid decision an inconsistency?

Then Freeza's character is inconsistent, since Freeza trained after he was revived.

He never trained before, because he never had to. He didn't meet anyone stronger before Namek, and he didn't believe he needed any training after Namek. After hearing that Goku defeated Majin Boo, the same Majin Boo that his father told him to never lay a hand on, he realized that he had to train this time.

Is this from an official source? Looks like a fan scanlation. Can I get a link to the official manga/website?

It's a fan-scanlation, but like FatNagger69 said, it's accurate. Even the summary in Kanzenshuu confirms it:

Tagoma suggests that they should be able to restore him using their latest regeneration machine, and Sorbet agrees.

[Hitiro]

You can't just deem this a plot hole because nothing is stated. There can be any number of reasons why the events played out the way they did. It's not like what has been said is impossible. Therefore it isn't a plot hole.

Fan rationalizations do not fix plot holes. Any plot hole can be explained away unofficially. They're meaningless.

A plot hole for all intensive purposes is something that conflicts with what has already been established. Can you tell me what was established to make it a plot hole in the first place? Everybody is telling you that the second time Freeza went to fight Goku he believed, for the most part, that he could handle Goku alone now with the power up he received. It's never officially explained that Goku was at full power during the first fight. Yet you and others deem it necessary to put it like that.

A plot hole would be a Warrior Type Namekian creating Dragon Balls when we know they can't.

By your logic, let's rationalize: Piccolo instead of increasing his powers to match the saiyans, instead focused on his magic and was cunning enough to learn how to create strong dragon balls. He is half Kami after all. Or simply, Dende taught Piccolo how to create dragon balls.

Explained officially? No. Does this fix the plot hole? No. It's still a glaring plot hole.

This doesn't work because as I've already told you Warrior Type Namekian's can't create dragon balls. It's pretty much stated that once fusing with Kami there was no way for them to create dragon balls other than get a new Namekian. And Dende wouldn't have to teach Piccolo either. Because before the fusion Kami said that Piccolo would gain his vast knowledge.

ANother plot rationalized away: Cooler appearing in GT wasn't Cooler, but a random dude who just looks like Cooler. Like when in the ROF manga, a random Ledgic-like dude appeared.

Explained officially? No. Does this fix the plot hole? No. It's still a glaring plot hole.

This is just making up things for the sake of an argument now. It's a terrible example to be honest. As said above there is no way to rationalize Piccolo being able to create Dragon Balls because it has already been established in the story that Warrior Types can't create Dragon Balls. That is why it would be a plot hole. The only thing that has been established about Freeza going to fight Goku a second time without training was that after being mechanized he was fairly confident his power had gone up to the point he could handle Goku alone.

I know you're a massive GT-hater, so you have about a billion more plot holes, but you get the idea.

I only dislike GT because it actually has plot holes. I actually like the premise of the show. Especially SSJ4. It seems you've only brought up this topic because your a massive GT fanboy in my opinion and you want to belittle Akira Toriyama's work to justify GT being a legitimate continuation of the Dragon Ball storyline.

Except Goku came into that battle with a max battle power of 3,000,000. As he turned SSJ1, which is x50, he had a level of 150,000,000. This was his max power. He wouldn't have been any stronger if he recovered. The only way would be with a zenkai or a long battle with a stronger opponent - none of cases which were present against Freeza.

Can you prove to me that this is the case? You were going on about Freeza being a plot hole because there is no "evidence" the Daizenshuu never states that 3 million is Goku's maximum battle power. It practically states nothing. So we have to choose from the following opinions:

1. It was Goku's max battle power and after turning SSJ he got this max battle power back. - You'll need to prove this if you think that is the case. Because the Guidebook doesn't say anything on this. And the manga says nothing about him gaining his full power back.

2. The Guidebook was quoting what Goku's power would be if he was at full power. - Goku was already weakened in the battle. There were several quotes about his power dropping so this is more likely.

3. The Guidebook was quoting what a weakened Goku's power was. - This is also a possibility.

“We can definitely defeat him if we go at him together, Papa. And I’ve powered up too, so I think I can probably go alone.”

I THINK I can PROBABLY go alone.

This strongly implies he is unsure of himself. Otherwise he would have said with pride: "stand back, I can definitely take him alone now, don't interfere."

Why would he even bring up Cold & himself vs Goku if he was 100% sure he could defeat Goku on his own.

Plus, as others have pointed out, Freeza was being supremely overconfident charging onto Earth. Yet he still isn't 100% he can kill Goku even with his "powerup"

Others are pointing out that he is of the belief he could more than likely manage Goku himself. He may not be 100% certain. But he is more certain that he could take Goku alone than he is uncertain that he could beat him alone. If you want to look at the argument this way:

70% Sure he can manage alone.
30% Unsure he can manage it alone.

^Overall believes he can manage it alone.

If he had doubts that he couldn't win alone he certainly wouldn't have suggested he could probably do it alone. Saying he could probably do it alone implies that there is more than likely a chance he doesn't need help than he does.

Overconfidence, Freeza being Freeza. Nothing to see here.

So you're going to claim overconfidence when it suits you? Earlier you were saying that it must be a plot hole that he didn't train to beat Goku. And was asking for proof. Yet now you're fine with avoiding proof to express your argument? Do you see the logical fallacy here? You either take it that it's possible Freeza didn't train because he was confident/overconfident that his Mecha power-up would be enough to beat Freeza and just accept that this isn't a plot hole. Or you continue to believe that this needs proof to not make it a plot hole(which is silly because a plot hole, as I described above, is something that contradicts what has already been established). Your plot hole case is under the premise that Freeza didn't train when he had the chance. Yet this doesn't contradict any of the material. He opted to not train because he thought his Mecha power-up was enough. Whether that was confidence or overconfidence you decide.

Also, Goku doesn't need to gain a Zenkai to gain strength. Just by combating Freeza his strength should increase. Akira Toriyama has already stated that Saiyan's do this.

Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.

Another massive plot hole by Akira. Where was this saiyan trait when Goku was battling Freeza with a power level of 3 million vs. Freeza's 50%? Goku wasn't stated at all to be getting stronger naturally as that fight when on (only through Kaioken). Where was this trait when Goku was battling a suppressed Cell? Full power Goku was not stated to have been getting stronger throughout that battle. At all. Where was this trait when Full Power Goku was battling Kid Boo? His power was actually decreasing at a rapid rate instead. This trait would have either decreased slowly, or not at all with this trait combating the negative effects of SSJ3.

This Saiyan trait was there. Freeza had mentioned it several times when he was fighting Vegeta and Gohan. Vegeta even mentioned it. Goku may have been increasing to 3 million during the span of the fight. Nothing says he wasn't. The only thing to be said was that Goku's power dropped after KKx20 and the Kamehameha. So we can't just go making plot holes because things aren't stated. Like I pointed out above, a plot hole is a part in the story that contradicts what has already been established. Goku's fight certainly doesn't contradict the statement by Akira Toriyama because we aren't given much to go on in the story. Honestly I don't see why you're bringing up this stuff honestly. Akira Toriyama pretty much says the longer they fight the more the gap would shrink. But if the battle is short then they aren't going to increase by enough. There is also damage and power loss we have to take into consideration with fights. Your power may have increased but if your running on empty that isn't going to matter. Now is it?

And what about Vegeta SSJ1 against Android 18? lol

And Gohan vs Dabura

etc etc etc

Read above. Goku managed to increase his power a lot in the RoSaT because he was sparring with Gohan. That it because he spent a long time sparring with Gohan. The only reasons these battles turned out the way they did is because the Saiyan's were either heavily out matched, like in the case of SSJ Vegeta vs Android 18. Or they were exhausted/damaged. Gohan had lost stamina during the fight against Dabura. That would have offset any increase he got while fighting Dabura.

Also, Freeza was NOT a strong opponent to SSJ1 Goku. Goku was 30 million levels above, and Freeza's strength was RAPIDLY decreasing, so SSJ1 Goku did NOT improve from 150,000,000. Nor did he experience a zenkai.

I was actually talking about prior to Goku becoming a SSJ. His power increased during the fight before hand. Which would have been offset by the damage and fatigue he gained during the fight. Even Piccolo received some growth after fighting Raditz in the start of the Saiyan Arc. Bulma read his battle power which had increased by, I think, 7 battle points after the fight. So it's likely Goku got a battle power increase too.

[Confidence Matters]

His ultra-personal motivation was a moot point because he felt confident that he could could handle him as is with the strength acquired from being turned into a cyborg.

"Almost certain" is not confident. You're either certain or you're not. Freeza was the latter.

Secondly, as the battle with Trunks showed, Freeza was too proud to ask for Cold's help.

It's not a plot hole, because you're presuming to know the character would have considered one instance as far more a cause to train than the other, when nothing actually points to that being the case at all.

THATS THE POINT LOL. THE FACT THAT FREEZA DECIDES TO TRAIN IN ROF CREATES A DISCREPANCY BECAUSE IN THE TRUNKS SAGA, HE SHOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME!

He wasn't confident in taking on Goku alone, and he was too proud to ask Cold for help. This eliminates all the excuses. If in ROF he trained, he should have done so in the Trunks saga also. This creates inconsistency.

Why would he feel the need to train if he already is confident he could beat Goku on his own

I already demonstrated the clear rone and context of the 2 statements. "Definitely" is sure, "probably" isn't. Therefore Freeza was not confident 1v1.

"Goku had been training for 2 years."

Link?

How would Freeza know his true power? He can't sense ki, and he didn't have any scouters around to read SS Goku's power on Namek.

Yet you guys are claiming Freeza knew he could beat Goku SSJ1 lol. WHatever the case may be, Freeza knew Goku's level. And his own.

He wasn't fully confident to his new power-up, which is why he brought his dad with him.

You tell this to vlorsutes and Hitiro over here claiming Freeza thought he could beat Goku SSJ1.

How is a stupid decision an inconsistency?

Whether it was a stupid decision is opinion.

He never trained before, because he never had to. He didn't meet anyone stronger before Namek, and he didn't believe he needed any training after Namek.

There's the discrepancy. Freeza had all the motivation to train there, MUCH more than he did when he found out Boo was defeated.

This doesn't work because as I've already told you Warrior Type Namekian's can't create dragon balls. It's pretty much stated that once fusing with Kami there was no way for them to create dragon balls other than get a new Namekian. And Dende wouldn't have to teach Piccolo either. Because before the fusion Kami said that Piccolo would gain his vast knowledge.

It works perfectly because I said Piccolo's been working hard on his magic. Meaning, it breaks barriers such as that.

Also, "it's pretty much stated"

Brilliant.

This is just making up things for the sake of an argument now. It's a terrible example to be honest.

This is exactly what you do when you rationalize plot holes away that have never been OFFICIALLY explained.

Glad you see how dumb it sounds.

As said above there is no way to rationalize Piccolo being able to create Dragon Balls because it has already been established in the story that Warrior Types can't create Dragon Balls.

Piccolo's magic allowed him to create dragon balls despite being a warrior type, because he put his mind to it. The end.

That is why it would be a plot hole. The only thing that has been established about Freeza going to fight Goku a second time without training was that after being mechanized he was fairly confident his power had gone up to the point he could handle Goku alone.

Except he wasn't confident at all.

This Saiyan trait was there.

No it wasn't, now you're rationalizing away plot holes again.

Gohan's boosts were guru unlock, rage boosts and zenkai against Freeza.

Vegeta SSJ1 vs. Android 18 was never stated to become stronger as the fight went on. Nothing says the powers can't be heavily outmatched, he still should have gotten stronger and stronger as they fought. He didn't.

The only reasons these battles turned out the way they did is because the Saiyan's were either heavily out matched, like in the case of SSJ Vegeta vs Android 18. Or they were exhausted/damaged. Gohan had lost stamina during the fight against Dabura. That would have offset any increase he got while fighting Dabura.

Stamina has nothing to do with your ki/power level rising. They are 2 different things.

Even Piccolo received some growth after fighting Raditz in the start of the Saiyan Arc.

[/quote]

Saiyans aren't Namekians, now are they?

[Marlowe89]

"Almost certain" is not confident. You're either certain or you're not. Freeza was the latter.

Your argument is baffling and nonsensical. You keep singling out the word "probably" while completely ignoring the context of the whole statement - Freeza says that him and his father together can definitely win, and on top of that he could probably even do it on his own. That's not just confidence, that's OVERconfidence. I also find it ironic that you're now saying he isn't confident at all when just last page you specifically said "Overconfidence, Freeza being Freeza". If anything is inconsistent, it's your position because you're constantly flip-flopping.

So why on earth would training ever occur to him if he didn't think he could lose? You're not making any sense.

[Hitiro]

He never trained before, because he never had to. He didn't meet anyone stronger before Namek, and he didn't believe he needed any training after Namek.

There's the discrepancy. Freeza had all the motivation to train there, MUCH more than he did when he found out Boo was defeated.

Why did he have the motivation to train here? They were fairly even on Namek. The only reason he ended up losing on Namek was because his power had started to drop because he couldn't maintain 100%. So naturally if he could maintain a power more than his 100% on Namek, which was putting up a pretty even fight against Goku, then it is natural to assume he doesn't need to train.

This doesn't work because as I've already told you Warrior Type Namekian's can't create dragon balls. It's pretty much stated that once fusing with Kami there was no way for them to create dragon balls other than get a new Namekian. And Dende wouldn't have to teach Piccolo either. Because before the fusion Kami said that Piccolo would gain his vast knowledge.

It works perfectly because I said Piccolo's been working hard on his magic. Meaning, it breaks barriers such as that.

Piccolo doesn't have "magic" though. The only thing that can be considered something like that is his clothes beam which even in the guidebooks has been stated as a special skill unique to him.

Also, "it's pretty much stated"

Brilliant.

It is pretty much stated. If he could create Dragon Balls then Goku wouldn't be asking him to separate from Kami. He would just ask Piccolo to make the Dragon Balls for them or Piccolo would offer to make the dragon balls for them.

This is just making up things for the sake of an argument now. It's a terrible example to be honest.

This is exactly what you do when you rationalize plot holes away that have never been OFFICIALLY explained.

Glad you see how dumb it sounds.

This is a terrible example because it's not a plot hole. And no, this isn't "exactly what I've been doing to rationalize plot holes away." Seriously. It's like you don't understand what a plot hole is.

Piccolo's magic allowed him to create dragon balls despite being a warrior type, because he put his mind to it. The end.

Piccolo doesn't have magic though. So how can he create Dragon Balls?

That is why it would be a plot hole. The only thing that has been established about Freeza going to fight Goku a second time without training was that after being mechanized he was fairly confident his power had gone up to the point he could handle Goku alone.

Except he wasn't confident at all.

Except he was? He tells us himself that he can more than likely handle Goku alone now. If that isn't confidence then I don't know what is.

This Saiyan trait was there.

No it wasn't, now you're rationalizing away plot holes again.

Clearly you haven't read the manga or watched the anime enough if you think it isn't there. And again. Not plot holes. You don't understand what a plot hole is. Clearly.

Gohan's boosts were guru unlock, rage boosts and zenkai against Freeza.

You need to read the chapters again. It is mentioned several times that the Saiyan's are getting stronger. Through fighting and experiencing near death.

Chapter: 249 (DBZ 55), P3.2-6, P4.1-2
Context: Freeza, Zarbon and Dodoria discuss Vegeta’s battle power as he powers up against Kui. Zarbon’s scouter had exploded.
Zarbon: "I... I think it's a malfunction, but... My scouter was set on Vegeta, and as the figures surpassed twe... 22,000..."
Dodoria: “It’s definitely a malfunction! Your scouter’s an old model, after all. I’ll check out the correct figure off mine…”
Zarbon: “What’s the figure…?”
Dodoria: "Th... that's impossible... Is my new model malfunctioning too...?! It's risen to up to twe... 24,000... !!"
Zarbon: "24,000...?! Are you saying it's higher than o... our own battle powers...?!"
Dodoria: "Th... this can't be...!! H... his battle power was barely 18,000..."
Freeza: “That shouldn’t be a surprise. It’s all because Vegeta’s been ceaselessly fighting on the front lines. Perhaps he’s caught on to something new on Earth. It’s merely 24,000. That’s a figure that you two would be more than able to win against if you fought together, is it not? Fufufu…”

Chapter: 257 (DBZ 63), P10.1-2
Context: Vegeta bragging to Dodoria about how he became stronger.
Vegeta: “Fuhahaha…! We Saiyans grow stronger each time we fight…! The stronger the opponent, the stronger we become…So I’m becoming stronger too…! I almost died on Earth, and have now vastly powered up…!”

Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…And I’m in the process of becoming what you’re afraid of: a Super Saiyan…!” <This was mentioned before the battle even.

Chapter: 303 (DBZ 109), P10.5
Freeza: “I don’t believe stupid legends like the Super Saiyan, the strongest in history, but I don’t feel too good…The squirt and Vegeta really are steadily getting stronger, after all…”< Vegeta hadn't even received a zenkai at this point.

Vegeta SSJ1 vs. Android 18 was never stated to become stronger as the fight went on. Nothing says the powers can't be heavily outmatched, he still should have gotten stronger and stronger as they fought. He didn't.

It's never stated he didn't either. The difference between SSJ Vegeta and Android 18 was too large for his power to have made the difference. Not to mention he was beaten up. So if his power had gone up it wouldn't have mattered. It would look like this:

SSJ Vegeta: 10
Android 18: 20

After short exchange:
SSJ Vegeta: 10 (+1 from fighting - 2 from damage) = 9
Android 18: 20

The only reasons these battles turned out the way they did is because the Saiyan's were either heavily out matched, like in the case of SSJ Vegeta vs Android 18. Or they were exhausted/damaged. Gohan had lost stamina during the fight against Dabura. That would have offset any increase he got while fighting Dabura.

Stamina has nothing to do with your ki/power level rising. They are 2 different things.

Stamina has everything to do with your Ki. If you lose your stamina then your Ki drops. These words are practically interchangeable throughout the story. You can see it throughout the story. In the last fight against Boo they actually wish for Goku's stamina to return to normal so he could finish of Boo too.

Even Piccolo received some growth after fighting Raditz in the start of the Saiyan Arc.

Saiyans aren't Namekians, now are they?

I'm just pointing out that it is not only a thing for Saiyan's. Though Saiyan's get a larger benefit from fighting than other races do. Even Kuririn's power was said to be steadily rising from fights on Namek.

Look this is simpler "A plot hole, or plothole is a gap or inconsistency in a storyline that creates a paradox in the story that cannot be reconciled with any explanation." Can we reconcile Freeza not training to beat Goku the second time with an explanation? Yes we can. Not a plot hole.

[Zephyr]

Should Freeza have trained between Namek and Trunks? Yes, of course. Does it make complete sense for him to have not done that, given his personality as someone who is incredibly dense and just doesn't fucking learn the first time? Yes, of course.

You're trying desperately to complain about a problem that doesn't actually exist.

[Lord Beerus]

Should Freeza have trained between Namek and Trunks? Yes, of course. Does it make complete sense for him to have not done that, given his personality as someone who is incredibly dense and just doesn't fucking learn the first time? Yes, of course.

You're trying desperately to complain about a problem that doesn't actually exist.

I have a bad feeling that this thread could possible go down the route of the Is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo? debacle, which Confidence Matters was also an infamous part of.

[Zephyr]

Should Freeza have trained between Namek and Trunks? Yes, of course. Does it make complete sense for him to have not done that, given his personality as someone who is incredibly dense and just doesn't fucking learn the first time? Yes, of course.

You're trying desperately to complain about a problem that doesn't actually exist.

I have a bad feeling that this thread could possible go down the route of the Is Kid Boo stronger than Super Boo? debacle, which Confidence Matters was also an infamous part of.

It's already run its course anyway. People have demonstrated why it's not a plothole, several times. It's all downhill from here. Aside from that, the thread was also redundant to begin with. There's a thread for the movie where this could have been brought up, there's a thread about the film's strength related discussion where this could have been brought up, and there's a thread about plotholes/inconsistencies in the movies where this could have been brought up.

[Darkprince410]

Secondly, as the battle with Trunks showed, Freeza was too proud to ask for Cold's help.

What battle? Freeza fires a single ki blast at him and thinks he finished Trunks off, then gets caught off guard by Trunks ki blast and then gets sliced to pieces. It was hardly a battle, and even less an indication of how much stronger Freeza had become since Namek.

Why would he ask for Cold's help in attacking Trunks if he readily thought he had defeated Trunks himself? He thought he had already killed him, and by the time he realized he hadn't, it was already too late for him to even react.

He wasn't confident in taking on Goku alone, and he was too proud to ask Cold for help.

Yes he was confident in being able to take Goku on alone. Sure, he wasn't 100% certain he could take on Goku on his own, but he was confident that he most likely could. Likewise, what do you mean he was too proud to ask Cold for help? We know he was certainly not opposed to Cold helping him get revenge on Goku (seeing as how he didn't hesitate to say that, together, they'd definitely beat him), and, as stated before, he didn't even have an opportunity to ask Cold for help. It's not like how it was in the anime where Freeza kept trying to attack him with ki blasts again and again, only for them to fail. Freeza fired one blast that he thought destroyed Trunks, then Trunks surprised him with a ki blast as a distraction in order to slice him down. There was no reason for him to ask Cold for help before, and no chance for him to ask Cold for help after.

I already demonstrated the clear rone and context of the 2 statements. "Definitely" is sure, "probably" isn't. Therefore Freeza was not confident 1v1.

Probably is still showing confidence. He's not 100% certain of his odds, but he's still confident that he knows the outcome should he have tried fighting Goku one on one. Besides, as shown in that same line, he wasn't afraid or proud to include his father in his vengeance, since he was willing to say that together, they'd definitely defeat Goku. The only reason Cold didn't help Freeza when it came to Trunks was because he didn't have the chance.

[Confidence Matters]

Another discrepancy:

Why is it that Cold says

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”

Implying that if Goku dies, their clan would hold the greatest power in the universe, when Cold is stated to be 100% fully aware of Beerus and Boo, and even probably Whis, who were definitely top 3 the most powerful beings in the universe who were alive and well. Beerus was a sleep and Boo was sealed, duh, but they still were strongest in the universe. Whis is also alive and awake at this time. Even if he didn't somehow know of Whis, he knew Beerus was only napping for a couple of decades (whatever Cold thought Beerus was doing, he knew he was alive and well since he warned Freeza to stay away from him... same with Boo). This makes that statement erroneous and causes a huge discrepancy from ROF because Freeza reveals that they knew about Beerus and Boo.

And why didn't Freeza correct him, when he supposedly knew about Beerus and Boo too?

One of those statements is 100% wrong, the statement in ROF or Cold's statement in the manga, which creates a discrepancy / straight up plot hole.

[Lord Beerus]

Another discrepancy:

Why is it that Cold says

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”

Implying that if Goku dies, their clan would hold the greatest power in the universe, when Cold is stated to be 100% fully aware of Beerus and Boo, and even probably Whis, who were definitely top 3 the most powerful beings in the universe who were alive and well. Beerus was a sleep and Boo was sealed, duh, but they still were strongest in the universe. Whis is also alive and awake at this time. Even if he didn't somehow know of Whis, he knew Beerus was only napping for a couple of decades (whatever Cold thought Beerus was doing, he knew he was alive and well since he warned Freeza to stay away from him... same with Boo). This makes that statement erroneous and causes a huge discrepancy from ROF because Freeza reveals that they knew about Beerus and Boo.

And why didn't Freeza correct him, when he supposedly knew about Beerus and Boo too?

One of those statements is 100% wrong, the statement in ROF or Cold's statement in the manga, which creates a discrepancy / straight up plot hole.

Freeza's ego and pride was practically destroyed after being humbled the way he against SSJ Goku. The last thing Freeza would have wanted to hear is people that he know are stronger than him. Being reminded about Beerus and Majin Boo would have just wrecked his pride even more. Besides, Freeza is incredibly petty and insecure.

[VegettoEX]

Account strikes and bans issued.

If you're not willing to converse with your fellow fans per the rules you agreed to (twice) prior to registration, you are not welcome here. Ain't nobody got time for that.

for all intensive purposes

"for all intents and purposes"

[Baggie_Saiyan]

THATS THE POINT LOL. THE FACT THAT FREEZA DECIDES TO TRAIN IN ROF CREATES A DISCREPANCY BECAUSE IN THE TRUNKS SAGA, HE SHOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME!

I have seen this come up a lot, and I want to weigh in. From what I remember about the Trunks saga, Freeza had no idea on the existence of Trunks, to him Goku is the only Super Saiayn. Freeza survived a one on one battle with said Super Saiayn, Freeza was planning to get to Earth before Goku. I assume Freeza assumed his mechanical enhancements would suffice enough and if it didn't he would bring old Pops with him. So therefore, it makes sense why Freeza would not train. Goku having Instant Transmission and Trunks were out of Freeza's hand and I am willing to bet if Freeza came back alive he would train now, oh wait that is exactly what he did. To conclude for a man who has not trained his entire life, I am sure he came up with dozen excuses why he should not but after the events that transpired on Earth it is safe to say he indeed regretted not training, even so would Freeza be able to train and improve in the mechanical state? there may well have been limitations and Freeza being Freeza took the easy way out.

[Hitiro]

for all intensive purposes

"for all intents and purposes"

Thank you, I notice I do that a lot. I don't know why but I always default to intensive purposes. Don't even know where I picked it up.

Another discrepancy:

Why is it that Cold says

Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P13.3-4
Cold: “The Earthlings don’t matter, but the Super Saiyan alone we absolutely must exterminate, by any means. The one who holds the greatest power in the universe must without a doubt be our clan”

Implying that if Goku dies, their clan would hold the greatest power in the universe, when Cold is stated to be 100% fully aware of Beerus and Boo, and even probably Whis, who were definitely top 3 the most powerful beings in the universe who were alive and well. Beerus was a sleep and Boo was sealed, duh, but they still were strongest in the universe. Whis is also alive and awake at this time. Even if he didn't somehow know of Whis, he knew Beerus was only napping for a couple of decades (whatever Cold thought Beerus was doing, he knew he was alive and well since he warned Freeza to stay away from him... same with Boo). This makes that statement erroneous and causes a huge discrepancy from ROF because Freeza reveals that they knew about Beerus and Boo.

We don't know for a fact that Cold knew of Beerus and Boo directly though. Especially Majin Boo who had been sealed for millions of years. How would King Cold know Majin Boo actually exists without seeing him? King Cold is not a million years old as far as I'm aware. All that was mentioned to Freeza was that if he should come across those beings he should not fight them. To Freeza and Cold they may have just thought that the God of Destruction and Majin Boo were tales told when they were children to scare them. Or like the legend of the Super Saiyan. I don't know why you say Cold knew Beerus was only napping for a couple of decades. Where did you get this information from? As far as I'm aware nothing in the movies state that King Cold knew how long Beerus would be asleep for. And it would be weird if he knew too because Beerus usually sleeps for longer than a few decades. I'm sure somebody can provide the correct information but 39 years worth of sleep was considered a nap in the movie, at least.

So no, I would not call it a plot hole. We lack a lot of information on the subject. We could easily conclude that they weren't sure if these beings truly existed. And if they didn't exist then Freeza and King Cold would be the strongest in the universe.

[Soccerjam]

1. Trunks BURNED FRIEZA TO DUST! NO TRACES AT ALL!!
2. Over a decade passed so, USING EARTH'S DRAGON BALLS TO WISH HIM BACK TO LIFE IS FREAKING IMPOSSIBLE!!
3. Thus, they should have NEVER BOTHERED making that STUPID MOVIE!!