What are all the canonical conflicts in GT?

[saunasolmu]

You want to talk issues. What about the rule of Earth's Dragon Balls unable to wish people back to life after a year passes! Freeza died OVER A DECADE ago! Thus, THAT MOVIE shouldn't have EVER been make!

The one year rule on applies to mass resurrections.

IF that was the case then Tenshinhan wouldn't have said that it was impossible to revive chiaotzu when fighting nappa.

It was impossible because Chiaotzu had already died and been revived before. I'm not sure why you think that has anything to do with a time limit.

[Basaku]

Baby being able to takeover Vegeta even though in the previous arc it was made clear that he has to much pride for that to happen.

Even if it isn't technically 'conflicting', the idea was still a crappy rehash of Vegeta's Buu-arc plot and should've never happened. So pointless

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I don't see how it's similar at all. Vegeta in the Buu arc let himself be 'possessed' because of his pride and wanting to fight Goku. In the Baby arc, he was unwillingly possesed because Baby wanted revenge on the Saiyans.

[Basaku]

I don't see how it's similar at all. Vegeta in the Buu arc let himself be 'possessed' because of his pride and wanting to fight Goku. In the Baby arc, he was unwillingly possesed because Baby wanted revenge on the Saiyans.

And in both 'we' end up with oh-so-evil Vegeta with villain powers and look. Sure, it's not exactly the same, but obviously it didn't feel exactly original right after Majin Vegeta in previous arc.

[Darkprince410]

I'm not talking about the Golden form. He said Freeza didn't seem different from when Trunks killed him, despite Cell saying they powered up. This person best explains why Mr. Buu doesn't fit: http://www.neoseeker.com/forums/88/t208 ... eral-rild/

I can't really say I hold much weight in that individual's "calculations", since he decided to arbitrarily have Goku receiving power-ups when none are indicated either in his performance in battle or in dialogue, seemingly trying to assume there were power-ups purely just to make out to be stronger so that he'd be above Gohan Buu. Nothing is indicated that base Goku's strength when he fought Rild was different or higher in any way than it was during the finishing of his training with Uub to teach Uub how to unlock his power.

Given that Uub should in all likelihood be equal to Pure Buu at that point, so to would it be reasonable for Goku to be. Given then that in that same base form, Goku was able, rather easily, to take out Rild's first form, which was the form compared to Buu, that'd put Rild below Pure Buu's strength. Having Goku compare Rild to Mr. Buu then with that statement would fit both Rild being stronger than Buu, while at the same time being weaker than Goku's base form.

[NitroEX]

It might not be a "canonical conflict" any longer since the new films mysteriously strip Gohan of his Kaioshin power up but at the time GT was released it would have made no sense for Baby to go after Vegeta's body when he had already taken over Gohan's. After the events of Z Gohan and Vegeta were clearly leagues apart yet Toei decided to imply Gohan was weaker than Vegeta. The new films kind of correct this but that still leaves SS4 and SSG to conflict with each other.

Also I can't remember if they ever explained how Piccolo and Goten survived Gohan's kamehameha.

[singsing]

Baby being able to takeover Vegeta even though in the previous arc it was made clear that he has to much pride for that to happen.

Yeah, but Vegeta wanted Babidi to take over, it was a trap, he gambled that he could still control himself and he could. Whereas, Baby forced himself upon Vegeta and was able to over power him.

Even Trunks was able to stop Baby from taking him over, Vegeta should have easily no-sold his attempt.

[GTx10]

It might not be a "canonical conflict" any longer since the new films mysteriously strip Gohan of his Kaioshin power up but at the time GT was released it would have made no sense for Baby to go after Vegeta's body when he had already taken over Gohan's. After the events of Z Gohan and Vegeta were clearly leagues apart yet Toei decided to imply Gohan was weaker than Vegeta. The new films kind of correct this but that still leaves SS4 and SSG to conflict with each other.

Also I can't remember if they ever explained how Piccolo and Goten survived Gohan's kamehameha.

Unless SS4 is indeed stronger than SSG and SSGSS. Golden Freeza has demonstrated that godly ki/beings can be surpassed by raw power. Golden Freeza VS two gods. I consider Son and Vegeta as gods now. So SS4 may very well be stronger. (Just cause its called "god" doesn't imply all powerful)

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

I can't really say I hold much weight in that individual's "calculations", since he decided to arbitrarily have Goku receiving power-ups when none are indicated either in his performance in battle or in dialogue, seemingly trying to assume there were power-ups purely just to make out to be stronger so that he'd be above Gohan Buu. Nothing is indicated that base Goku's strength when he fought Rild was different or higher in any way than it was during the finishing of his training with Uub to teach Uub how to unlock his power.

Given that Uub should in all likelihood be equal to Pure Buu at that point, so to would it be reasonable for Goku to be. Given then that in that same base form, Goku was able, rather easily, to take out Rild's first form, which was the form compared to Buu, that'd put Rild below Pure Buu's strength. Having Goku compare Rild to Mr. Buu then with that statement would fit both Rild being stronger than Buu, while at the same time being weaker than Goku's base form.

It appears that you didn't read through the full post, since the person thoroughly explained why Goku on M2 is stronger than he was in the Beginning of GT. You'd think that was obvious considering he was stronger than Rild, who was on a completely different level from every other enemy up to that point, which would include Ledgic, who was stronger than Goku before. If that somehow doesn't explain it for you, read here.

You also seemed to have ignored Rild being stronger than a Gohan who hadn't neglected his training, if you want to explain how Gohan not neglecting his training makes him go from above Super Buu to below Good Buu, be my guest.

Baby being able to takeover Vegeta even though in the previous arc it was made clear that he has to much pride for that to happen.

Yeah, but Vegeta wanted Babidi to take over, it was a trap, he gambled that he could still control himself and he could. Whereas, Baby forced himself upon Vegeta and was able to over power him.

Even Trunks was able to stop Baby from taking him over, Vegeta should have easily no-sold his attempt.

Baby had powered up from when he tried to posses Trunks to when he possessed Vegeta.

[Hitiro]

It appears that you didn't read through the full post, since the person thoroughly explained why Goku on M2 is stronger than he was in the Beginning of GT. You'd think that was obvious considering he was stronger than Rild, who was on a completely different level from every other enemy up to that point, which would include Ledgic, who was stronger than Goku before. If that somehow doesn't explain it for you, read here.

GT really doesn't make sense. Because with the quotes provided Goku says that Super Mega Cannon Sigma was awesome yet in episode 18 he says they aren't strong at all. So did he randomly gain a huge power-up while he was sleeping or something?

Episode 18
Time: Roughly 16m35s
Context: After knocking down the Super Mega Cannon Sigma
Goku: “The way you guys fought was pretty interesting. But the way I read things you guys ain't that strong, huh?”

So which is it? Are they awesome or weak?

And there is no point in trying to explain Gohan compared to Rild. Because it doesn't make sense that Gohan didn't use SSJ against him if he was having difficulty either, lol.

And from what I saw of the battle with Goku and Lood. Goku was definitely not outclassed while Lood was at level 2. The only hit Goku took was being stepped on. Both Goku and Trunks were dealing blows against Lood no problem. All I see is that Lood is incredibly durable and has a Ki which Goku thinks is awesome. But considering he thinks SMCS has an awesome Ki yet he thinks he's not strong at all it doesn't mean much.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

GT really doesn't make sense. Because with the quotes provided Goku says that Super Mega Cannon Sigma was awesome yet in episode 18 he says they aren't strong at all. So did he randomly gain a huge power-up while he was sleeping or something?

It just means they're awesome compared to the previous enemies, and not himself.

And there is no point in trying to explain Gohan compared to Rild. Because it doesn't make sense that Gohan didn't use SSJ against him if he was having difficulty either, lol.

It seems as though Rild's metal attack nullifies Super Saiyan, since he used the attack on Goku, and it reverted Goku to his base form, and Goku later goes Super Saiyan afterwards. Therefore debunking this "GT is so inconsistent because Gohan didn't turn Super Saiyan!" argument.

And from what I saw of the battle with Goku and Lood. Goku was definitely not outclassed while Lood was at level 2. The only hit Goku took was being stepped on. Both Goku and Trunks were dealing blows against Lood no problem. All I see is that Lood is incredibly durable and has a Ki which Goku thinks is awesome. But considering he thinks SMCS has an awesome Ki yet he thinks he's not strong at all it doesn't mean much.

He was outclassed by Luud Level 3, not 2.

[Hitiro]

GT really doesn't make sense. Because with the quotes provided Goku says that Super Mega Cannon Sigma was awesome yet in episode 18 he says they aren't strong at all. So did he randomly gain a huge power-up while he was sleeping or something?

It just means they're awesome compared to the previous enemies, and not himself.

Then by what you say here all of Goku's statements about enemies being awesome should not have any bearing on a discussion. Because he could always be on about people weaker than himself being awesome.

And there is no point in trying to explain Gohan compared to Rild. Because it doesn't make sense that Gohan didn't use SSJ against him if he was having difficulty either, lol.

It seems as though Rild's metal attack nullifies Super Saiyan, since he used the attack on Goku, and it reverted Goku to his base form, and Goku later goes Super Saiyan afterwards. Therefore debunking this "GT is so inconsistent because Gohan didn't turn Super Saiyan!" argument.

Of course you can believe that. But the only thing that could suggest that is Goku reverting. But SSJ's have reverted for a lot of reasons over the span of the anime universe. I mean Goku gets punched out of SSJ during the Super 13 movie. Without Dragon Ball GT specifically telling us all we can do is make assumptions. Though I guess this is the only plausible answer. But that just solves Gohan not becoming SSJ. GT is still very inconsistent.

And from what I saw of the battle with Goku and Lood. Goku was definitely not outclassed while Lood was at level 2. The only hit Goku took was being stepped on. Both Goku and Trunks were dealing blows against Lood no problem. All I see is that Lood is incredibly durable and has a Ki which Goku thinks is awesome. But considering he thinks SMCS has an awesome Ki yet he thinks he's not strong at all it doesn't mean much.

He was outclassed by Luud Level 3, not 2.

The comment on that site you linked says he was "already outclassed by Lood level 2." And we can hardly say Goku was outclassed by Lood Level 3 either. Because the only thing we saw where Lood had the upper hand is when he had Goku in his grasp. And like I said before. Goku isn't going to go full power and attack something that contains Pan through fear of destroying her too.

[Cetra]

After the events of Z Gohan and Vegeta were clearly leagues apart yet Toei decided to imply Gohan was weaker than Vegeta. The new films kind of correct this but that still leaves SS4 and SSG to conflict with each other.

So 15 years of Vegeta training but not showing much are impossible and 15 with movie and training make it possible?

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Then by what you say here all of Goku's statements about enemies being awesome should not have any bearing on a discussion. Because he could always be on about people weaker than himself being awesome.

Which doesn't change Goku saying Rild doesn't even compare to anyone else they've met until now.

Of course you can believe that. But the only thing that could suggest that is Goku reverting. But SSJ's have reverted for a lot of reasons over the span of the anime universe. I mean Goku gets punched out of SSJ during the Super 13 movie. Without Dragon Ball GT specifically telling us all we can do is make assumptions. Though I guess this is the only plausible answer. But that just solves Gohan not becoming SSJ. GT is still very inconsistent.

Yes, there are some inconsistencies in GT, but it's not hard to see established power relations between characters, and by no means should we write off clear feats, especially because of something silly like "Goku was hurt by glass so Gohan's power against Rild is inconsistent". It's the equivalent of me saying that Perfect Cell's power is too inconsistent because General Tao's piller that he threw was faster than Teen Gohan could fly, or because a blast from Perfect Cell and Android #18 virtually did the same amount of cosmetic damage.

The comment on that site you linked says he was "already outclassed by Lood level 2." And we can hardly say Goku was outclassed by Lood Level 3 either. Because the only thing we saw where Lood had the upper hand is when he had Goku in his grasp. And like I said before. Goku isn't going to go full power and attack something that contains Pan through fear of destroying her too.

There's nothing saying Goku wasn't using his full power. He clearly had to defeat Luud to get Pan out, and he pretty much was outclassed since his attacks didn't do anything. There's no point in making up conjecture like Goku was holding back a lot and stronger than Luud level 3 by a lot, since it goes against what's shown to us.

[Darkprince410]

You also seemed to have ignored Rild being stronger than a Gohan who hadn't neglected his training, if you want to explain how Gohan not neglecting his training makes him go from above Super Buu to below Good Buu, be my guest.

Because in their usual attempt to make Goku out to be the strongest, it seemed pretty clear to me Toei stripped Gohan of his Rou Kaioushin power-up. Otherwise, you'd have to have Goten, who was confirmed to have significantly slacked off since he was younger, be many times more powerful than he was as a boy. Not to mention you'd need to have Piccolo, who hadn't reached Ssj2 levels of power during the seven years between the Cell and the Buu Sagas, somehow make it to the range of post power-up Gohan in twice that time.

So if you go by that take on his strength, him being weaker than base form Rild, since he wasn't faring well against him during the Super #17 arc, would still fit perfectly with Rild being simply stronger than Mr. Buu.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Because in their usual attempt to make Goku out to be the strongest, it seemed pretty clear to me Toei stripped Gohan of his Rou Kaioushin power-up. Otherwise, you'd have to have Goten, who was confirmed to have significantly slacked off since he was younger, be many times more powerful than he was as a boy. Not to mention you'd need to have Piccolo, who hadn't reached Ssj2 levels of power during the seven years between the Cell and the Buu Sagas, somehow make it to the range of post power-up Gohan in twice that time.

So if you go by that take on his strength, him being weaker than base form Rild, since he wasn't faring well against him during the Super #17 arc, would still fit perfectly with Rild being simply stronger than Mr. Buu.

It's never stated Gohan lost his power up. That's based on nothing, not to mention Gohan still has his Ultimate traits in the show.

I'm really not seeing the logic behind the head of the series thinking: We need everyone to know Gohan is weaker, so let's say he trained! or the logic in Gohan just randomly waking up massively weaker one day.

Neither Goten or Trunks trained, yet Trunks was strong enough to one-shot Yakon, which doesn't seem likely in the Buu saga since Yakon was giving Goku trouble. So it's clear Toei powered them up for no reason. Not to mention Goten was being powered up by Baby when he was giving Gohan trouble.

Piccolo had no qualms with guarding Hell with people like Rild and Hell Fighter #17 in there, and when Goku checks up on Piccolo in the last episode, Piccolo seems to be doing fine, so it's clearly implied Piccolo is the top dog in Hell and above people who are above Buu.

Toei doesn't care how likely/logical power boosts are, they just make the characters as strong as they need to be.

[Hitiro]

Then by what you say here all of Goku's statements about enemies being awesome should not have any bearing on a discussion. Because he could always be on about people weaker than himself being awesome.

Which doesn't change Goku saying Rild doesn't even compare to anyone else they've met until now.

But it he does point to these "awesome" people being beneath him.

Yes, there are some inconsistencies in GT, but it's not hard to see established power relations between characters, and by no means should we write off clear feats, especially because of something silly like "Goku was hurt by glass so Gohan's power against Rild is inconsistent". It's the equivalent of me saying that Perfect Cell's power is too inconsistent because General Tao's piller that he threw was faster than Teen Gohan could fly, or because a blast from Perfect Cell and Android #18 virtually did the same amount of cosmetic damage.

Your examples are easily explainable. The only way for Goku to be hurt by glass is if his battle power is weaker than early DB Kid Goku because he could tank bullets and knifes at the point with relative ease. So yes, it is inconsistent because Goku would not have survived those blows if his power dropped that low, for whatever reason.

The comment on that site you linked says he was "already outclassed by Lood level 2." And we can hardly say Goku was outclassed by Lood Level 3 either. Because the only thing we saw where Lood had the upper hand is when he had Goku in his grasp. And like I said before. Goku isn't going to go full power and attack something that contains Pan through fear of destroying her too.

There's nothing saying Goku wasn't using his full power. He clearly had to defeat Luud to get Pan out, and he pretty much was outclassed since his attacks didn't do anything. There's no point in making up conjecture like Goku was holding back a lot and stronger than Luud level 3 by a lot, since it goes against what's shown to us.

There is nothing saying Goku was using full power either. Like I told you in another thread, in Dragon Ball we usually get told one if not the other. The exception is in the Oob fight which as I said before was probably purposely left ambiguous for material to be put in during the 10 year gap. Lood being able to tank Goku's attacks does not have to mean his battle power is superior than Goku's it could simply mean that Lood is built out of a very durable material. Both Kuririn and Tenshinhan had difficulty destroying a metal door that Dr. Gero had made. SSJ Goku was also going all out against #19 and despite the difference between them #19 wasn't really damaged. So for all intents and purposes Lood could be built out of a very sturdy material.

And like I said, you can't make those assertions about the battle because the only attacks we saw Goku make were the ones that Goku had to do with Pan. Most of the fight we missed because we had the whole Pan being inside Lood thing. He may have not been attacking at all during the time she was absorbed because he was trying to figure out a way to save her. He literally only did 5 Kamehameha's that we know of. 2 with level 2 Lood and the other 3 were used trying to save Pan.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

But it he does point to these "awesome" people being beneath him.

It doesn't prove he was above Ledgic when he fought him. Goku (M2) > Rild >>>> Ledgic >= Goku (Imegga) are what the feats/statements show, no reason to make things up/twist what's shown.

Your examples are easily explainable. The only way for Goku to be hurt by glass is if his battle power is weaker than early DB Kid Goku because he could tank bullets and knifes at the point with relative ease. So yes, it is inconsistent because Goku would not have survived those blows if his power dropped that low, for whatever reason.

How exactly do you explain an attack meant to hurt MSS Goku doing the same destructive damage as a blast #18 used on Mighty Mask?

There is nothing saying Goku was using full power either. Like I told you in another thread, in Dragon Ball we usually get told one if not the other. The exception is in the Oob fight which as I said before was probably purposely left ambiguous for material to be put in during the 10 year gap. Lood being able to tank Goku's attacks does not have to mean his battle power is superior than Goku's it could simply mean that Lood is built out of a very durable material. Both Kuririn and Tenshinhan had difficulty destroying a metal door that Dr. Gero had made. SSJ Goku was also going all out against #19 and despite the difference between them #19 wasn't really damaged. So for all intents and purposes Lood could be built out of a very sturdy material.

And like I said, you can't make those assertions about the battle because the only attacks we saw Goku make were the ones that Goku had to do with Pan. Most of the fight we missed because we had the whole Pan being inside Lood thing. He may have not been attacking at all during the time she was absorbed because he was trying to figure out a way to save her. He literally only did 5 Kamehameha's that we know of. 2 with level 2 Lood and the other 3 were used trying to save Pan.

Because we don't need to be told they're at full power to come to the conclusion.

Why are you going against what's shown to us? If they show Character A being stronger than Character B, what is the logic in making something up like Character B holding back and then just saying "You can't prove it wrong" to go against what's trying to be told? That's like the same as me saying "Goku > Jackie Chun at the 21st, Goku was holding back the whole time, you can't prove me wrong because it would've been stated if Goku was at full power"

[Hitiro]

But it he does point to these "awesome" people being beneath him.

It doesn't prove he was above Ledgic when he fought him. Goku (M2) > Rild >>>> Ledgic >= Goku (Imegga) are what the feats/statements show, no reason to make things up/twist what's shown.

Why not? Goku was fighting Yakon suppressed and turned SSJ still suppressed instead of powering up to full. Why can't Goku have done this here?

How exactly do you explain an attack meant to hurt MSS Goku doing the same destructive damage as a blast #18 used on Mighty Mask?

The destructive damage of Ki blasts can be manipulated. Otherwise anybody past the Freeza's level would be blowing up Earth.

There is nothing saying Goku was using full power either. Like I told you in another thread, in Dragon Ball we usually get told one if not the other. The exception is in the Oob fight which as I said before was probably purposely left ambiguous for material to be put in during the 10 year gap. Lood being able to tank Goku's attacks does not have to mean his battle power is superior than Goku's it could simply mean that Lood is built out of a very durable material. Both Kuririn and Tenshinhan had difficulty destroying a metal door that Dr. Gero had made. SSJ Goku was also going all out against #19 and despite the difference between them #19 wasn't really damaged. So for all intents and purposes Lood could be built out of a very sturdy material.

And like I said, you can't make those assertions about the battle because the only attacks we saw Goku make were the ones that Goku had to do with Pan. Most of the fight we missed because we had the whole Pan being inside Lood thing. He may have not been attacking at all during the time she was absorbed because he was trying to figure out a way to save her. He literally only did 5 Kamehameha's that we know of. 2 with level 2 Lood and the other 3 were used trying to save Pan.

Because we don't need to be told they're at full power to come to the conclusion.

Why are you going against what's shown to us? If they show Character A being stronger than Character B, what is the logic in making something up like Character B holding back and then just saying "You can't prove it wrong" to go against what's trying to be told? That's like the same as me saying "Goku > Jackie Chun at the 21st, Goku was holding back the whole time, you can't prove me wrong because it would've been stated if Goku was at full power"

That really isn't how it works. You can't say that he must be at full power because it doesn't say he is suppressed. Because by that logic he must be suppressed because it never says he's at full power. We do need to be told whether they are at full power or suppressed. Because if we're told neither then we can come to the conclusion that either is possible.

This seems to be hopeless. You can't see reason it seems. I'm hardly making things up. You're just treating your opinion as fact here and I'm providing an alternate view on this. I never said my way was right. But you are saying that he has to have powered up by M2 as if it were a fact. You're also saying I'm saying stuff that goes against what we're told but we aren't told anything. All of this stuff are assumptions on your part. And actually, you can't say Goku was holding back the whole time against Jackie Chun because from the start it was said they weren't.

Chapter: 46, P12.1
Kame-sennin: “I won’t hold back.”
Goku: “Me neither!”

They both said they wouldn't hold back.

[SSJ2FutureGohan]

Why not? Goku was fighting Yakon suppressed and turned SSJ still suppressed instead of powering up to full. Why can't Goku have done this here?

Who said Goku was suppressed against Yakon?

The destructive damage of Ki blasts can be manipulated. Otherwise anybody past the Freeza's level would be blowing up Earth.

Or it's just proof that it's inconsistent. It's never stated they can control how much destruction their blast does. If a blast has more power, than logically, it does more destruction. I don't see how one can argue against that.

That really isn't how it works. You can't say that he must be at full power because it doesn't say he is suppressed. Because by that logic he must be suppressed because it never says he's at full power. We do need to be told whether they are at full power or suppressed. Because if we're told neither then we can come to the conclusion that either is possible.

Because what's shown is shown for a reason. If character A is shown stronger than Character B, that's what we're expected to believe instead of just making things up. No writer is enough of a dumbass to show the opposite of what we're supposed to believe.

This seems to be hopeless. You can't see reason it seems. I'm hardly making things up. You're just treating your opinion as fact here and I'm providing an alternate view on this. I never said my way was right. But you are saying that he has to have powered up by M2 as if it were a fact. You're also saying I'm saying stuff that goes against what we're told but we aren't told anything. All of this stuff are assumptions on your part.

Writers: Hey! We need everyone to know Goku >>>>>>> Ledgic, and that Goku was holding back, so let's have Goku get beat around and resort to Super Saiyan instead of making it clear Goku was holding back! That way everyone will somehow find out on their own!

Is that how writers think? If so, that's very misleading.

And actually, you can't say Goku was holding back the whole time against Jackie Chun because from the start it was said they weren't.

There are other examples. Pocus never said he was going all out against Vegeta. Can we not assume Vegeta > Pocus? Pocus never explicitly said he would use his full power on Vegeta, so I can just say Pocus was suppressed, you can't prove it wrong.