Does this graph describe all the potential transformations?

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Does this graph describe all the potential transformations?

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Fri May 15, 2015 5:19 pm

Hey everyone! I am new to the forums, but not new in any way to Dragon Ball. I wanted to discuss this fan-made image that I found on deviantart.com.

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Looking at this image, my first instinct is to say that most of these don't exist ... but after some serious thought, I have begun to believe otherwise. The first important part to this, I believe, is discussing the hypothetical validity of each of these transformations.

The 'human ape' versions of the Oozarus, I feel, cannot exist. I think you can only be in a saiyan form or an oozaru form. However, the Oozaru God, SSJ3 Oozaru, etc., do, in fact, seem possible to me. If we consider when Vegeta mentioned the SSJ 1000 years ago, there was an image of him in an SSJ Oozaru form. If saiyans can control their oozaru transformations like they can in 'saiyan' form these should be possible. Hypothetically speaking, though we have never seen SSJGSSJ2 or SSJGSSJ3 one could still utilize their power.

If the SSJ tier can have a Stage 2/Stage 3/Full-Power extensions, I would assume SSJ2 and SSJ3 tiers would as well. A Kaioken 30X, clearly possible, but not seen. Anything beyond a Super Kaioken would kill the host, so I don't know about anything like that.

Now, looking at the LSSJ section, I have never been able to understand if LSSJ is linearly the next form of SSJ Stage 3 or if it is another 'branch in the whole tree', as seen in the image. If it were in another section of the 'tree', then the LSSJ2 and LSSJ3 would make sense.

I'm not sure what Mystic 2 and Mystic 3 could be because I was always under the impression that the Mystic transformation was a power-up to the saiyan's base form, not a Mystic SSJ, so to speak.

SSJ4 Control, SSJ5 Control, SSJ6 Control, SSJ4 Stage 2, SSJ5 Stage 2 all can't be confirmed, in my opinion, because we don't know enough about the saiyan lineage in that 'branch of the tree' since this is not an extension of the SSJ tier. Considering Akira Toriyama said that if a SSJ5 were to exist it would be full of darkness and that Vegeta and Bulma teased the idea of a SSJ5 in GT, I think we could call that a potentiality.

On to the directional arrows: If we take out the section with 'human apes', that leaves us with three 'branches' above the SSJ section. I think that the arrows should only reside within the Oozaru 'branch', Oozaru God 'branch', and SSJG 'branch'. I believe each 'arrow leaves' of these should be linear and can't extend to other 'branches'. I think the False SSJ, SSJ, and Kaioken 'branches' are fine (except for the erroneous red arrow after SSJ3, which is a mistake by the author). My only one change would be that there is a yellow arrow going from SSJ to LSSJ.

The LSSJ, Mystic, and SSJ4 branches seem alright if we have arrows from SSJ4 to SSJ5, and the LSSJ tier. My questions and reservations lie in whether a hypothetical Oozaru SSJ could shift back into an SSJ by going 'across the tree' or 'back down and over'. Second, I'm also still not too sure if Mystic 2 and Mystic 3 are possible (although, off the record, I think they are kind of neat). Third, I don't know if there actually should be an arrow going from False SSJ to anywhere. Thank you all for taking the time to look at this, discuss my ideas, hopefully come to a consensus, and to finally organizing the saiyan transformations visually. Lastly, thanks especially to deviantart.com's Naruttebayo67 for creating this beautiful image.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by Lord Beerus » Fri May 15, 2015 5:55 pm

No, it doesn't. It's all just theories and speculation. The image, or even idea, of a SSJ Oozaru was pure filler and wasn't mentioned in the manga at all. However, it was never really denied that if a saiyan, who still has his tail, becomes a SSJ and looks at the moon wouldn't become a Golden Oozaru. So any theories of transformations on top of Oozaru are pretty much open for speculation by that point.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by One_Instance » Fri May 15, 2015 6:08 pm

If we really want to talk about ALL the potential transformations, there is an infinite amount, and as such, it's impossible to represent them all. However, while I don't think that this really does the best job it could, I do like the ideas behind some of these forms even if I don't think we'll ever see them.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Fri May 15, 2015 6:43 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:No, it doesn't. It's all just theories and speculation. The image, or even idea, of a SSJ Oozaru was pure filler and wasn't mentioned in the manga at all. However, it was never really denied that if a saiyan, who still has his tail, becomes a SSJ and looks at the moon wouldn't become a Golden Oozaru. So any theories of transformations on top of Oozaru are pretty much open for speculation by that point.
Ahh, thank you for the clarification. I'll set some parameters for this: if we were to include all the content that has been given to us (whether it be DBGT, DBZ, DB, DBKai, the movies, and manga) would this be accurate in your opinion?

One_Instance wrote:If we really want to talk about ALL the potential transformations, there is an infinite amount, and as such, it's impossible to represent them all. However, while I don't think that this really does the best job it could, I do like the ideas behind some of these forms even if I don't think we'll ever see them.
I really like the way the image is created and some of the transformations myself, but I'd like to work on it and narrow it down to a canon and non-canon 'tree' of potential transformations, with Naruttebayo67's permission of course.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by Kaboom » Fri May 15, 2015 7:08 pm

I feel like a lot of these are way too "our there" or rooted in fan-creations.

Despite how some of the games treat it, Kaio-Ken isn't a transformation. It's a technique.

Similarly, Gohan's Ultimate or "Mystic" state isn't a transformation either. It's supposed to be the opposite of a transformation.

Super Saiyan 5, 6, and whatever else beyond Super Saiyan 4 are all fan-made and shouldn't even be mentioned.

Personally, I don't think "LSS2" is a thing. Broli's "Legendary" Super Saiyan state is already something beyond Super Saiyan, and probably his substitute for SS2, so I think he'd only have Super Saiyan 3 one step beyond it.

The heck is up with those "Oozaru Super Saiyan" forms? The Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan 4 already are SS and Oozaru combined.

Likewise, way too much baseless speculative shenanigans about combining Super Saiyan God's power with other forms.
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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by KentalSSJ6 » Fri May 15, 2015 7:31 pm

Kaboom wrote:I feel like a lot of these are way too "our there" or rooted in fan-creations.

Despite how some of the games treat it, Kaio-Ken isn't a transformation. It's a technique.

Similarly, Gohan's Ultimate or "Mystic" state isn't a transformation either. It's supposed to be the opposite of a transformation.

Super Saiyan 5, 6, and whatever else beyond Super Saiyan 4 are all fan-made and shouldn't even be mentioned.

Personally, I don't think "LSS2" is a thing. Broli's "Legendary" Super Saiyan state is already something beyond Super Saiyan, and probably his substitute for SS2, so I think he'd only have Super Saiyan 3 one step beyond it.

The heck is up with those "Oozaru Super Saiyan" forms? The Golden Oozaru and Super Saiyan 4 already are SS and Oozaru combined.

Likewise, way too much baseless speculative shenanigans about combining Super Saiyan God's power with other forms.
Broly actually does have a SSJ2. Way back from Dragon Battlers in 2009

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Fri May 15, 2015 7:51 pm

I don't really remember, but I do believe that's just from the current iteration of the regular Cardsass series? Though the set containing it was released years ago.

Will check the Dragon Battlers database...

EDIT: Yeah, Dragon Battles had a different type of card:

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Fri May 15, 2015 7:57 pm

Alright, using the information from all of the Dragon Ball content what can we establish are potential hypothetical transformations from the graph?

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by goku the krump dancer » Fri May 15, 2015 8:25 pm

ChiefWamsutta wrote:Alright, using the information from all of the Dragon Ball content what can we establish are potential hypothetical transformations from the graph?
We can gather that its all baseless nonsense really.. Especially if you notice the pattern at how whenever a new Super Saiyan transformation is introduced people try to come up with their own further transformations that follow the same design pattern as the official newest one. Then once we actually do get an "official" follow up or new transformation, its something completely out of left field.
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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by rereboy » Fri May 15, 2015 8:33 pm

Honestly, besides the humanoid Oozaru line and the SSJ5 and SSJ6 transformations, I don't see any real nonsense in the graph. They are basically all within the realm of possibility.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat May 16, 2015 1:37 am

Kaboom wrote:I feel like a lot of these are way too "our there" or rooted in fan-creations. ... Personally, I don't think "LSS2" is a thing. Broli's "Legendary" Super Saiyan state is already something beyond Super Saiyan, and probably his substitute for SS2, so I think he'd only have Super Saiyan 3 one step beyond it.
I wanted to mention how dragonball.wikia.com has this stated:


"There are nine variations of the Super Saiyan form, including the standard form itself. The following is a summarized list of the standard, premature, and advanced levels of the Super Saiyan transformation.

-- False Super Saiyan: a pseudo-Super Saiyan form resembling a glorified Kaio-ken, with an orange-yellowish surge of aura. It only appears in the movie Dragon Ball Z: Lord Slug, in which King Kai refers to it as the real Super Saiyan form.
-- Super Saiyan: the standard Super Saiyan transformation. It is achieved when a powerful Saiyan reaches varying levels of anger, as shown by Goku when Frieza killed Krillin, Vegeta when Goku surpassed his abilities, and Future Trunks when the Androids killed Future Gohan. To differentiate it from Broly's other Super Saiyan forms, this state is called Super Saiyan (C type).[3]
-- Super Vegeta: Vegeta's version of the Super Saiyan form. Counts as a separate form in Dragon Ball: Xenoverse. Super Vegeta has greater ability in ki control, while Super Saiyan has greater striking power.
-- 2nd Grade Super Saiyan: an advancement in the power of the original Super Saiyan state. This is Vegeta's primary state in the Perfect Cell Saga.
-- 3rd Grade Super Saiyan: an even stronger advancement in the power of the original Super Saiyan state, however lacks speed as increased muscle size restricts movement. Future Trunks uses this form in the Perfect Cell Saga.
-- Full-Power Super Saiyan: the state of mental and physical perfection of the Super Saiyan transformation itself, rather than an advanced stage.
-- Super Saiyan (A type): A weaker variant of the Super Saiyan and Legendary Super Saiyan states. It is the result of Broly's Ring and causes the user's hair to go a neon blue with a purple tinge.[3]
-- Legendary Super Saiyan: a level of Super Saiyan which magnifies its user's strength capacity, without drawbacks. Broly is the only user of this Super Saiyan variant, and does not appear in the manga.

-- Super Saiyan (enchanced): In Dragon Ball Online there is a "Super Saiyan potion" which when used temporarily transforms the user into a Super Saiyan with far more power than usual.
-- Super Saiyan 2: the second Super Saiyan transformation.
-- Broly has a "legendary version" of the form, which looks like a cross between the regular Super Saiyan 2 form and the Legendary Super Saiyan form.
-- Super Vegeta 2: Vegeta's version of Super Saiyan 2. Counts as a separate form in Xenoverse. Upgraded version of Super Vegeta.
-- Super Saiyan 3: the third Super Saiyan transformation.
-- Legendary Super Saiyan 3: Broly's version of Super Saiyan 3 combined with his Legendary power.
-- Super Saiyan God: a form that grants the user enough power to fight on par with a god, but only for a limited time. It occurs when six pure-hearted Saiyans hold hands and transfer energy to the host. Only appears in the movie Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods.
-- Saiyan beyond God: a form gained when a prodigy Saiyan manages to absorb and master the power of Super Saiyan God in their base form.
-- Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan: The result of a Saiyan mastering the power of Super Saiyan God in their base form, and then further transforming into a Super Saiyan. Goku and Vegeta use this form in order to battle Golden Frieza in the film Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection F.
-- Golden Great Ape: a Saiyan Great Ape in Super Saiyan form. Appears in Dragon Ball GT and Vegeta's flashback on Namek in the Dragon Ball Z anime.
-- Super Saiyan 4: a Saiyan transformation which occurs when a Saiyan is able to regain control while in Golden Great Ape form. Introduced in Dragon Ball GT.
-- Broly has a "legendary version" of the form, which looks like a cross between the regular Super Saiyan 4 form and the Legendary Super Saiyan form.
-- Villainous Mode: In Xenoverse there are special forms used by NPC enemies which are a merging of Villainous Mode and the Super Saiyan forms.
-- Villainous Mode (Super Saiyan): Used by Gotenks (Super Saiyan 3) and Future Trunks (Super Saiyan)
-- Villainous Mode (Super Saiyan 2): Used by Vegeta (Super Saiyan 2) and Gohan"


The reliable and respectable wiki seems to recently have added this to the Super Saiyan page, where it fully recognizes the LSSJ, LSSJ2, LSSJ3, and LSSJ4 as "legendary versions" of their basic forms, and also mentions the blueish-purple reduced-power SSJ form (now called Super Saiyan (A type)). These seem to now be offically recognized forms and probably would make sense to have their own 'tree branch'.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by Dyno » Sat May 16, 2015 10:33 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:The reliable and respectable wiki
What!? :eh:

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by Doctor. » Sat May 16, 2015 10:42 am

I wouldn't call the wiki reliable and respectable either when 75% of the information they have comes from the original Funimation dub of the series :lol: Though it seems, some people are making an effort to correct that, it's still pretty bad in terms of reliability.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sat May 16, 2015 12:39 pm

Haha, okay, okay, fair enough. :D I still don't doubt the validity of my point, however, haha. There's nothing to prove against it.

Oh, and I found a more canon version of this graph, in case anyone was interested in looking at it. This was made by deviantART's The-Devils-Corpse.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Sat May 16, 2015 1:04 pm

It's way more rooted in official material, but was still specially designed for my rewrite project. Which is why names are changed and there are grades for SS2 and SS3; in order to explain Broli (as I eradicated Legendary Super Saiyan from being a thing). It's not that I think these are actual possibilities for the series proper.
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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by emperior » Sat May 16, 2015 2:45 pm

What are Super Saiyan 2 and 3 grades?
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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat May 16, 2015 6:25 pm

Based on the manga, anime, movies, and games, we have this:

Regular Saiyan :arrow: Oozaru :arrow: Golden Oozaru :arrow: Super Saiyan 4
____________ :arrow: Giji Super Saiyan
____________ :arrow: Super Saiyan :arrow: Super Saiyan Grade 2 :arrow: Super Saiyan Grade 3
__________________________ :arrow: Super Saiyan 2 :arrow: Super Saiyan 3 :arrow: Golden Oozaru :arrow: Super Saiyan 4
__________________________ :arrow: Legendary Super Saiyan :arrow: [Legendary] Super Saiyan 2 :arrow: [Legendary] Super Saiyan 3 :arrow: [Legendary] Golden Oozaru :arrow: [Legendary] Super Saiyan 4
____________ :arrow: Super Saiyan [Full Power] :arrow: Super Saiyan 2 :arrow: Super Saiyan 3 :arrow: Golden Oozaru :arrow: Super Saiyan 4
____________________________________ :arrow: Super Saiyan God
____________ :arrow: Super Saiyan God
____________ :arrow: Saiyan beyond God :arrow: Super Saiyan :arrow: etc.
_______________________________ :arrow: Super Saiyan God
_______________________________ :arrow: Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by Dyno » Sat May 16, 2015 6:45 pm

No, just "Saiyan beyond God" which I would like to point out only in Dragon Ball Heroes it is a "transformation". This could confuse some people, and can also serve to some discussion, since people can see it like a regular state from now on, or even like the "Ultimate/Mystic" state of Son Gohan.

Think it's up to the person's pointview.

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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by Cetra » Sat May 16, 2015 6:56 pm

emperior wrote:What are Super Saiyan 2 and 3 grades?
The states Trunks and Vegeta used to fight Cell.
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Re: Does this graph describe all the potential transformatio

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Sun May 17, 2015 8:08 pm

Hmmmm, I wonder if SSJ4 is the only next transformation from Golden Oozaru, since it is a SSJ Oozaru? I wonder if an SSJ2 Oozaru and SSJ3 Oozaru are potentials like in the first graph ... hmmmm.

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