Is DBZA Goku better than current DBZ Goku?

[ABED]

I think you are seeing Gohan defeating Cell as the destination rather than another major step on his hero's journey. Everything he struggles with during his fight with Cell is captivating because he has to overcome in the most dire of circumstances despite his nature. Gohan not being the "perfect" hero makes him the most attractive hero, especially in modern drama. We also expect it to affect his life moving forward and change him as a person, we unfortunately never got to see that because Toriyama shifted focus away from him.

I don't ask that he be the perfect hero, just that he not need his hand held or for Toriyama to not give him a false dilemma instead of creating organic drama. Gohan was never struggling with his nature. It's ridiculous that he changes AFTER he saves the world. No, he changes and THEN saves the world. Ultimately resolving an inner conflict should be the thing that leads to the hero saving the day, not the other way around. Goku is far from a perfect hero.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

Well honestly, if you look at the Dragon Ball starting from the beginning I doubt that anyone would really consider Goku an absolute savior in the slightest.

I'm very much a fan of Goku in the original Dragon Ball, he's incredibly entertaining, I have no qualms with DB Goku. My concern is really the current Goku we have now. I don't see his flaws, or any new development being done to him or an effort to evolve him as a character and so he becomes stagnant and boring. And this worries me if he is to remain the protagonist in "Super"

I do have to concede however based on what you, ABED, and a few other people in the topic have posted that perhaps I'm not looking at the full picture. For instance maybe FUNI's version of Goku, who I'm most familiar with and was my first introduction to the character, is a lot more stereotypical savior then the original Japanese version. I also can't argue with the concept that DBZA is just highlighting aspects of the DBZ Goku to the extreme and so comparing them is not necessarily the most productive way to discuss Goku's character. It's probably because I'm just so bored with Goku nowadays that watching him on DBZA in a new light is incredibly refreshing to me.

I don't ask that he be the perfect hero, just that he not need his hand held or for Toriyama to not give him a false dilemma instead of creating organic drama. Gohan was never struggling with his nature. It's ridiculous that he changes AFTER he saves the world. No, he changes and THEN saves the world. Ultimately resolving an inner conflict should be the thing that leads to the hero saving the day, not the other way around. Goku is far from a perfect hero.

I know we got off topic discussing Gohan a lot instead of Goku which is my fault but still, I do not understand your argument here. His "hand held by Toriyama" what does that mean? You think random plot devices somehow detracted from Gohan's development during his fight with Cell? I can't think of one. In fact most of the random plot devices that occurred during the fight present more and more obstacles to Gohan.

What was false about his drama? His fear that he couldn't defeat an opponent his own father couldn't beat? (made all the more dramatic by how much Gohan admires his father and believes him to be unbeatable) His doubt that he can really be the one to save his friends, family, and the entire planet when in the past he always needed them to bail him out? His reluctance to let his inner power out because it's an unknown side of himself? His regret over being responsible for the death of his father and the fate of the world? His courage despite everything that happened to continue fighting knowing his father is by his side? What part of this is a false dilemna? What part isn't organic to the Gohan we have known the entire series.

What rule saids the character has to change and then defeat the villian. If Gohan conquered all his demons in that moment with cell, what other obstacles must he overcome in the future? What growth can we expect from him from that point on? I think it's wonderful that Toriyama left so much more for Gohan to prove, it's what makes him one AT's best character. There are still more mountains for Gohan to climb, more to discover about himself because he's not a finished product he's a work in progress which is what you want for your hero. It's the opposite in my opinion of what's happened to Goku, who hasn't evolved or grown recently.

[Mewzard]

A purely external conflict can be just as interesting as an internal one, it all depends on execution. The problem with Superman isn't that he's "perfect" it's that he's written too powerful so it's hard to create good obstacles for him. Sure, Goku's incredibly strong but there's no shortage of strong beings for Goku to fight.

I'd much rather the writers give Goku something interesting to do than be a tool to push other characters forward. I like seeing how Goku affects other characters like in DB, but the main character should be the one pushing the story forward along with the antagonist(s).

Only in the same way the Greek gods were. They weren't omnipotent and were very human in their actions.

There are plenty of people stronger than Superman. Hell, Pre-Crisis there were still a number of beings who could take him out (A competent Green Lantern back then could do it, much less actual gods and monsters in the universe).

Superman is capable of existing outside of fighting though. Stories about him are at their best often when they focus on his humanity, or what being so powerful means to who is essentially still that down-to-Earth farm boy who wants to help people, or how he deals with people on a personal level. He can be awesome in a fight, but he doesn't live for fighting the way Goku does. Superman's far more capable of being an interesting character outside of battle than Goku is (and I love Goku, but I'm speaking to Superman's strength here, his character, not his abilities).

Yeah, while Goku helping with group dynamics is important, he needs to have his own moments to shine.

Yeah, several of the Greek Gods were basically horrible people who wouldn't die, but plague humanity for centuries. But I get what you're saying. They're flawed beings, much like Goku (Superman too, to touch back on previously mentioned grounds).

But what does being a god even mean for Goku? Does it change him more than just making him stronger? Is he immortal? Long lived? Immune to disease? What does "godhood" grant him beyond combat stats? That's what I want to know.

[Polyphase Avatron]

But what does being a god even mean for Goku? Does it change him more than just making him stronger? Is he immortal? Long lived? Immune to disease? What does "godhood" grant him beyond combat stats? That's what I want to know.

His ki can't be sensed by mortals, for one thing.

[dae428]

Well honestly, if you look at the Dragon Ball starting from the beginning I doubt that anyone would really consider Goku an absolute savior in the slightest.

I'm very much a fan of Goku in the original Dragon Ball, he's incredibly entertaining, I have no qualms with DB Goku. My concern is really the current Goku we have now. I don't see his flaws, or any new development being done to him or an effort to evolve him as a character and so he becomes stagnant and boring. And this worries me if he is to remain the protagonist in "Super"

I do have to concede however based on what you, ABED, and a few other people in the topic have posted that perhaps I'm not looking at the full picture. For instance maybe FUNI's version of Goku, who I'm most familiar with and was my first introduction to the character, is a lot more stereotypical savior then the original Japanese version. I also can't argue with the concept that DBZA is just highlighting aspects of the DBZ Goku to the extreme and so comparing them is not necessarily the most productive way to discuss Goku's character. It's probably because I'm just so bored with Goku nowadays that watching him on DBZA in a new light is incredibly refreshing to me.

But the thing is Goku really hasn't changed much in terms of who he is. He's had minor changes here and there, but he's kept his base character. You can say the same about Abridged Goku who has remained his same stupid self since the beginning of DBZA. So to say that Goku is stagnant and boring would be the same as saying the Abridged Goku is stagnant and boring.

Personally in my opinion I think Goku has changed quite a bit, if you look carefully throughout Dragon Ball. He starts off as a ignorant hick who just kills whatever he deems a threat including people. Then after going up to Kami he seems to gain a merciful streak in which he generally spares people if he can regardless of how wicked they are. He also starts to exhibit Saiyan traits here and there such as arrogance especially when he's a super saiyan. Eventually when he get's killed by Cell he chooses to stay dead as he feels Earth is better off without him. As he remains dead he comes to accept his role as a dead guy and generally tries to stay out of Earth's affairs if he could though he eventually steps in due to his own selfishness. Eventually he gets bored and begins to avoid contact with his friends because he feels that there's no one else to challenge him anymore until Oob appears and Piccolo notes that he hasn't seen Goku so happy in years. With that Goku takes the role as a teacher with a student who unlike Gohan who fights out of necessity actually yearns to become a stronger guy. But this is all just my opinion.

Now let's look at Abridged Goku. How has he changed over time? He kind of hasn't... Not even in the slightest... Why you may ask? Because that's the point of his character. He's a character not meant to grow over time, rather he's a vehicle used by the writers to tell funny jokes about the character of Goku and his actions over the course of the series.

Can Abridged Goku be more fun to watch than Goku? Of course. Dragon Ball Z Abridged is a series that is continuing with great writers and editing while Dragon Ball Z was more or less dead for 17 years until Battle of Gods happened. You've seen Goku for probably years now and have seen him do the same things over and over again unlike Abridged Goku who has been doing his own new spin on what Goku's been doing every other month. However, does that make Abridged Goku a deeper, better character to me? No. Absolutely not. But if you think so does that mean you are wrong? Absolutely not. The way we see characters is entirely subjective and we each have our own appreciation for characters in own ways. I just personally think that Abridged Goku doesn't even hold a candle compared to the original, one of a kind Sun Wukong Son Goku.

[ABED]

I know we got off topic discussing Gohan a lot instead of Goku which is my fault but still, I do not understand your argument here. His "hand held by Toriyama" what does that mean? You think random plot devices somehow detracted from Gohan's development during his fight with Cell? I can't think of one. In fact most of the random plot devices that occurred during the fight present more and more obstacles to Gohan.

What was false about his drama? His fear that he couldn't defeat an opponent his own father couldn't beat? (made all the more dramatic by how much Gohan admires his father and believes him to be unbeatable) His doubt that he can really be the one to save his friends, family, and the entire planet when in the past he always needed them to bail him out? His reluctance to let his inner power out because it's an unknown side of himself? His regret over being responsible for the death of his father and the fate of the world? His courage despite everything that happened to continue fighting knowing his father is by his side? What part of this is a false dilemna? What part isn't organic to the Gohan we have known the entire series.

What rule saids the character has to change and then defeat the villian. If Gohan conquered all his demons in that moment with cell, what other obstacles must he overcome in the future? What growth can we expect from him from that point on? I think it's wonderful that Toriyama left so much more for Gohan to prove, it's what makes him one AT's best character. There are still more mountains for Gohan to climb, more to discover about himself because he's not a finished product he's a work in progress which is what you want for your hero. It's the opposite in my opinion of what's happened to Goku, who hasn't evolved or grown recently.

The false drama I'm referring to is the idea that he either fears his own power or that he gets cold feet before fighting Cell because he doesn't like fighting like his father. Ever since fighting Vegeta, he hasn't shown fear or trepidation of fighting an evil person if it means protecting those he cares about. He also has never feared his inner power.

What's interesting about a hero that doesn't overcome any obstacles and has to have his father tell him what to do? What growth did he show? If you are going to set up all of these dilemmas, pay at least one of them off. There are always more mountains to climb if you keep creating artificial mountains. I'd be fine if he was in fact a work in progress and not whatever Toriyama needed from him in that moment to create drama.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

The false drama I'm referring to is the idea that he either fears his own power or that he gets cold feet before fighting Cell because he doesn't like fighting like his father. Ever since fighting Vegeta, he hasn't shown fear or trepidation of fighting an evil person if it means protecting those he cares about. He also has never feared his inner power.

What's interesting about a hero that doesn't overcome any obstacles and has to have his father tell him what to do? What growth did he show? If you are going to set up all of these dilemmas, pay at least one of them off. There are always more mountains to climb if you keep creating artificial mountains. I'd be fine if he was in fact a work in progress and not whatever Toriyama needed from him in that moment to create drama.

Again I think your seeing Cell as the destination, rather than another step. So what if his father needed to help him? He defeats Cell with his fathers help then the next logical step would be Gohan finds the strength within himself (hypothetically at the end of the buu arc). Unfortunately we never got to see that because Toriyama decided to shift away from that development and leave it unfinished.

How can you say he doesn't overcome any obstacles? He defeated Cell! Pre-Cell Games Gohan would not have been able to accomplish this. He overcame obstacles to achieve an objective. Sure it wasn't perfect and there were tons of flaws but thats a good thing. That's what makes it so entertaining. Like I said, leaving obstacles still unconquered is good thing for your hero it keeps a through-line between different saga's.

You're right, he doesn't fear his inner power specifically. But with his new strength he learned in RoSaT he's unsure what exactly he's capable of, and he knows it will kill Cell which is something he doesn't (at that point) want to do. And Yes, Gohan has shown time and time again the astounding courage to stand up to seemingly unbeatable foes when his family and friends are in jeopardy but can you not understand his trepidation before fighting Cell? Cell just beat his father

And IIRC you're right this is the first time Gohan claims outright that he doesn't like fighting but it's not like that's out of left-field. He's only fought when it was absolutely necessary, and he never once saids that he got some sort of joy out of it like Goku has, or was never excited about a new opponent. When Gohan fought up to this point he usually was in some emotional turmoil or someone's life depended on it.

[ABED]

But Gohan took no steps, he's simply acting as Goku's proxy. I wouldn't be averse to Goku helping his son if Gohan didn't need him to do everything. Goku told him to fight back, he told him to fire his Kamehameha, he told him to not hold back, he told him when the best opening was. Gohan is so passive. The logical thing would've been Gohan finding the strength within himself before the next arc. If your hero is simply taking orders it's not that heroic.

He physically defeated Cell, but he didn't overcome the artificial psychological barriers. He was essentially just the gun, Goku was the one that pointed and shot.

You're right, he doesn't fear his inner power specifically. But with his new strength he learned in RoSaT he's unsure what exactly he's capable of, and he knows it will kill Cell which is something he doesn't (at that point) want to do. And Yes, Gohan has shown time and time again the astounding courage to stand up to seemingly unbeatable foes when his family and friends are in jeopardy but can you not understand his trepidation before fighting Cell? Cell just beat his father

Yes, at that point it's not what he wanted to do, meaning it's out of character. I don't understand his trepidation. As stated in the story, it has nothing to do with Goku, and has everything to do with not liking fighting. That's what he tells Cell. People's lives DO depend on him defeating Cell, this was NEVER an issue before and nothing has changed. It was a weak attempt to create drama.

What makes Goku more interesting in the story is no matter if he knows he's in over his head, he still has the desire to fight and defend.

[SansrivaaL]

What makes Goku more interesting in the story is no matter if he knows he's in over his head, he still has the desire to fight and defend.

Couldnt have said it better myself. As for the OP, Goku in DBZ is still a better character.

[MYSTICisPOWER]

But Gohan took no steps, he's simply acting as Goku's proxy. I wouldn't be averse to Goku helping his son if Gohan didn't need him to do everything. Goku told him to fight back, he told him to fire his Kamehameha, he told him to not hold back, he told him when the best opening was. Gohan is so passive. The logical thing would've been Gohan finding the strength within himself before the next arc. If your hero is simply taking orders it's not that heroic.

He physically defeated Cell, but he didn't overcome the artificial psychological barriers. He was essentially just the gun, Goku was the one that pointed and shot.

Yes, at that point it's not what he wanted to do, meaning it's out of character. I don't understand his trepidation. As stated in the story, it has nothing to do with Goku, and has everything to do with not liking fighting. That's what he tells Cell. People's lives DO depend on him defeating Cell, this was NEVER an issue before and nothing has changed. It was a weak attempt to create drama.

What makes Goku more interesting in the story is no matter if he knows he's in over his head, he still has the desire to fight and defend.

What is occurring before he fights Cell in SSJ2 is completely different from the previous times Gohan has "rage boosted" and fought. Yes people lives matter but nobody is in immediate danger except himself. Cell is still playing a game. Gohan puts others before him and has always required someone to be in immediate peril or dead to unleash himself, so it's not out of character.
Raditz - Goku being Crushed
Nappa - Piccolo dies
Vegeta - Goku being crushed (again)
Namek - Villagers being slaughtered
Freeza - Krillan injured

When Cell decides to use the Cell Jr. and puts others in jeopardy and kills 16 he breaks through. If Cell went homicidal right at the beginning Gohan wouldn't be giving the "I don't want to fight speech"

Regardless of this we are talking in circles. Neither one of us is going to convince the other. We simply are interpreting the same moments differently. (Correct me if I'm wrong) You see Goku assisting Gohan as a statement that Gohan exhibits is no growth as a character. I see it as a natural and captivating step in his development to step into his father's shoes as protector of the Earth. You see Gohan's desire not to fight as a random occurrence, I see it as a logical aspect of his character based on past events. Neither is right or wrong, but clearly we experienced the moments differently (just like we experience Goku differently) and that's the beauty of story-telling I guess.

[ABED]

This has nothing to do with rage boosting (I don't know why, I don't care for the term), it has to do with Gohan fighting the bad guy. He has no issue with fighting for a just cause. The only times he does is in the Saiyan arc when he's scared, and in the Cell Games when he's the only one who can do anything. It makes no sense because it goes against his progression. Gohan's rage only has to do with him being able to tap into his untapped potential for the nth time.

You see Goku assisting Gohan as a statement that Gohan exhibits is no growth as a character.

He's not really assisting as telling Gohan what to do, to the point of even telling him to fight.

I see it as a natural and captivating step in his development to step into his father's shoes as protector of the Earth. You see Gohan's desire not to fight as a random occurrence, I see it as a logical aspect of his character based on past events. Neither is right or wrong

I know people like to believe that, but there are right and wrong answers. Either Toriyama is contradicting himself or he isn't. I don't think this is natural at all since he's well past being scared to fight. But I do agree, this is going in circles.

[EXBadguy]

Current(Saiyan to Cell) Goku FTW. Great character development. Went from finally realizing what he's fighting for to somebody who knows his limits, realizes that he won't live forever, and passes the torch. Too bad a saga involving a big fat blob had to ruin the storyline.

If your hero is simply taking orders it's not that heroic.

"Taking orders" is a bit much, don't you think? You may think that way, but others(myself included) think it's one of the most encouraging parts of the series. Goku wasn't all "Go all out! WHY?! CUZ I'M YOUR FATHER and I said so!". It wasn't like that. The Father Son Kamehameha battle sort of reminds me of one of the scenes from this movie.

[Lord Beerus]

Current(Saiyan to Cell) Goku FTW. Great character development. Went from finally realizing what he's fighting for to somebody who knows his limits, realizes that he won't live forever, and passes the torch. Too bad a saga involving a big fat blob had to ruin the storyline.

No it didn't. Hell, the Majin Boo arc further developed his character. Goku knew that him coming back to, at least at that time, was a temporary once only deal. And when Majin Boo arrived, he knew how much of a crutch character he was so he didn't kill majin Boo because he wanted the new generation of fighters, Gohan, Goten and Trunks, to learn how to defend themselves and protect the Earth from serious threats when he's not around. The new generation just dropped the ball and it lead to Goku and Vegeta having to save the day.

[EXBadguy]

No it didn't. Hell, the Majin Boo arc further developed his character. Goku knew that him coming back to, at least at that time, was a temporary once only deal. And when Majin Boo arrived, he knew how much of a crutch character he was so he didn't kill majin Boo because he wanted the new generation of fighters, Gohan, Goten and Trunks, to learn how to defend themselves and protect the Earth from serious threats when he's not around..

Fair point, but too bad the dumb decisions he and most of the characters made in that saga didn't make up for it, though.

Movies 9-12 did a better job of letting the next generation step up.(I honestly can't believe I'm actually giving Movie 11 credit)

[ABED]

Movies 9-12 did a better job of letting the next generation step up.

Goku and co. WERE the next generation of fighters. Goku's still in his prime and why do any of you guys care about the next generation stepping up so much? Is it simply the idea of the next generation or is it the characters?

"Taking orders" is a bit much, don't you think? You may think that way, but others(myself included) think it's one of the most encouraging parts of the series. Goku wasn't all "Go all out! WHY?! CUZ I'M YOUR FATHER and I said so!". It wasn't like that. The Father Son Kamehameha battle sort of reminds me of one of the scenes from this movie.

No, I don't think it's too much. It's hardly encouraging that the supposed hero of the story gives up until he gets a pep talk and has to be told what to do and when to do it in order to save the day.

[EXBadguy]

Goku and co. WERE the next generation of fighters..

I'm talking about Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Videl, and whoever was debuted in the Buu saga.

why do any of you guys care about the next generation stepping up so much? Is it simply the idea of the next generation or is it the characters?

That's the answer, or at least my answer.

No, I don't think it's too much. It's hardly encouraging that the supposed hero of the story gives up until he gets a pep talk and has to be told what to do and when to do it in order to save the day.

Well I never said that Gohan was THE main hero of that saga, I think he's a "main" hero who finally decided to grow a pair and realizes that the earth's at stake(Gohan vs Super Cell prior to Vegeta butting in ring a bell?) but still, Goku wasn't being all "CUZ YO' FADDA SAID SO" authoritarian, that's why I scratch my head at your "taking orders" statement.

Not really. After the Saiyan arc, he's gung ho about going to Namek, defend the world against the Cyborgs, train with his father. It's not his nature to love battle, but he enjoys helping.

But you forgot something, Gohan never actually fought a main villain 1-on-1 in a dangerous situation when the planet's at stake, so maybe the self-doubt was justified. I agree on the "I don't care who's wrong or right. I don't really wanna fight no more" part, that pacifist attitude did came outta nowhere, but as I said again, the self doubt he had wasn't OOC.

[ABED]

I know what you're referring to, but when the story begins, Goku is part of the next generation. His time isn't up yet.

What's your answer, you didn't say anything.

Gohan was taking order essentially. Taking orders doesn't only mean taking orders from a drill sergeant. Goku told him to not give up, and not simply as motivation. Gohan had given up and had to be told not to. Goku was the one that told him to not hold back, and finally, he's the one that told his son when the best opening was to destroy Cell. At no point is Gohan taking control of the situation. He's merely the gun.

But you forgot something, Gohan never actually fought a main villain 1-on-1 in a dangerous situation when the planet's at stake, so maybe the self-doubt was justified. I agree on the "I don't care who's wrong or right. I don't really wanna fight no more" part, that pacifist attitude did came outta nowhere, but as I said again, the self doubt he had wasn't OOC.

Gohan was fighting Vegeta one on one at the end of the Saiyan arc. And he fought Freeza even though the gap between their powers was huge. It didn't matter if it was one on one, it might as well have been. Gohan has faced overwhelming odds before so to suggest that this is different than anything he has ever experienced before is a tad shortsighted. The self doubt was out of character because after the Saiyan arc, he didn't doubt his own power. And I don't think the explicit issue with Gohan not wanting to fight Cell had to do with self doubt, it was that he didn't like to fight, even against monsters like Cell.

[KameRule]

Gohan was fighting Vegeta one on one at the end of the Saiyan arc. And he fought Freeza even though the gap between their powers was huge. It didn't matter if it was one on one, it might as well have been. Gohan has faced overwhelming odds before so to suggest that this is different than anything he has ever experienced before is a tad shortsighted. The self doubt was out of character because after the Saiyan arc, he didn't doubt his own power. And I don't think the explicit issue with Gohan not wanting to fight Cell had to do with self doubt, it was that he didn't like to fight, even against monsters like Cell.

But then, he had just been sitting there for a large portion of the fight, and he came in of his own accord. There were people around him who, until he had his outburst with Freeza, had proved themselves to be stronger than him. He entered when he was ready, and he had the backup of two stronger guys.

When he fought Cell, he was thrust in there involuntarily, and the person he was fighting had just killed his dad, who he looked up to more than anyone. I'm not surprised he was having second thoughts.

[ABED]

Gohan was fighting Vegeta one on one at the end of the Saiyan arc. And he fought Freeza even though the gap between their powers was huge. It didn't matter if it was one on one, it might as well have been. Gohan has faced overwhelming odds before so to suggest that this is different than anything he has ever experienced before is a tad shortsighted. The self doubt was out of character because after the Saiyan arc, he didn't doubt his own power. And I don't think the explicit issue with Gohan not wanting to fight Cell had to do with self doubt, it was that he didn't like to fight, even against monsters like Cell.

<br abp="691"><br abp="692">But then, he had just been sitting there for a large portion of the fight, and he came in of his own accord. There were people around him who, until he had his outburst with Freeza, had proved themselves to be stronger than him. He entered when he was ready, and he had the backup of two stronger guys. <br abp="693"><br abp="694">When he fought Cell, he was thrust in there involuntarily, and the person he was fighting had just killed his dad, who he looked up to more than anyone. I'm not surprised he was having second thoughts.

None of that matters, Gohan went up against FAR stronger opponents than him and Kuririn nor Vegeta were going to make a bit of difference. He fought because he had to. He didn't enter when he was ready, he entered when he was either upset or was forced to by circumstance. Gohan didn't fight Freeza when he had Vegeta as backup, he fought him on his own AND Piccolo was taking a beating.

Regarding the end of the Cell Games, his fear doesn't matter! What's better, to go down swinging or give up? What second thoughts are you talking about?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

Now onto DBZA. I know this is parody, but they have made a remarkable change to the character of Goku. By juxtaposing his incredible strength with his absurd stupidity you create not only a hilarious character, but one that actually has a conflict within himself. It also enhances his relationships to the outside world, especially his fellow cast mates. The other character go from saying "WE NEED GOKU" to "Oh crap, do we really need Goku!?" Even in this example the latter statement is more dramatic and interesting. There are opposing forces at work. There is more to gain out of the character of Goku when there are different shades to work with.

No way. TFS's Goku to me comes off as a very shallow, and exaggerated misconception of how the western fans think Goku is rather than it enlightening on who Goku is. The thing I really hate hearing is the idea that Goku is to a lot of people who hear this claim think that hes just too dumb to live. When no where in the Z series has he been shown to be like that. He really isnt, hes just not very domesticated and very childishly cocky. BoG redefines that when he first met Beerus and Whis. Hes like a kid getting to try out a new toy when he got the chance to fight a god. Goku isnt a brute numbskull like nappa or Chris' Recoome, hes just detached, easy-going and genuinely happy while naive, to even ignorant but not stupid. He doesnt make the same mistakes conciously, he only runs by what he thinks he can handle even ifs being the challenge of it.

Not to mention MasakoX's voice acting is pretty awful. With that muffled mic and badly controlled screams. Hes no Sean.

Again I think your seeing Cell as the destination, rather than another step. So what if his father needed to help him? He defeats Cell with his fathers help then the next logical step would be Gohan finds the strength within himself (hypothetically at the end of the buu arc). Unfortunately we never got to see that because Toriyama decided to shift away from that development and leave it unfinished.

How can you say he doesn't overcome any obstacles? He defeated Cell! Pre-Cell Games Gohan would not have been able to accomplish this. He overcame obstacles to achieve an objective. Sure it wasn't perfect and there were tons of flaws but thats a good thing. That's what makes it so entertaining. Like I said, leaving obstacles still unconquered is good thing for your hero it keeps a through-line between different saga's.

Gohan's only solution to obstacles was his deux ex random rage boosts and hype train. Nothing from his own merit.