What are your top 3 dream fights?

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:14 pm

supercat wrote:If you're trying to shut Gohan fanboys up, I think fight #3 would only manage to be counterproductive. The ultimate warrior's fan base would absolutely get a kick out of watching their favorite character one-shot his father with the utmost ease.
Very unlikely Gohan would get allowed to do that in modern DB.
As far as we can see Goku is the top dog Saiyan and Vegeta is lacking slightly behind, every other past hero are deemed totally irrelevant.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by supercat » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:43 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
supercat wrote:If you're trying to shut Gohan fanboys up, I think fight #3 would only manage to be counterproductive. The ultimate warrior's fan base would absolutely get a kick out of watching their favorite character one-shot his father with the utmost ease.
Very unlikely Gohan would get allowed to do that in modern DB.
As far as we can see Goku is the top dog Saiyan and Vegeta is lacking slightly behind, every other past hero are deemed totally irrelevant.
I think that fight in particular was referring to SSJ3 Goku from the original series, who we know was a complete fodder in comparison to his son.

As for modern DB, I definitely agree that the probability of seeing Gohan somehow rising to a position of prominence and reclaiming his spot as the top non-fused character is exceptionally low.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:49 pm

supercat wrote:I think that fight in particular was referring to SSJ3 Goku from the original series, who we know was a complete fodder in comparison to his son.
Yes, and in all probability, the powers that be wouldn't agree with that.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 3:57 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
supercat wrote:I think that fight in particular was referring to SSJ3 Goku from the original series, who we know was a complete fodder in comparison to his son.
Yes, and in all probability, the powers that be wouldn't agree with that.
One hopes that they won't apply this kind of logic in Super until after God forms have been divvied out and it actually makes sense.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by dbgtFO » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:02 pm

Captain Space wrote:One hopes that they won't apply this kind of logic in Super until after God forms have been divvied out and it actually makes sense.
They already have Vegeta stating Goku is number #1 in the universe and the strongest Saiyan, which makes sense, since it's a continuation of the anime, where Goku was top dog.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:05 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
Captain Space wrote:One hopes that they won't apply this kind of logic in Super until after God forms have been divvied out and it actually makes sense.
They already have Vegeta stating Goku is number #1 in the universe and the strongest Saiyan, which makes sense, since it's a continuation of the anime, where Goku was top dog.
Well, I interpreted that as a combination of:

-Meaning pure saiyans.

-Discounting Gohan who hasn't trained for years--barring like, one day--and got his power through a magical ritual (and has done nothing to maintain it), and discounting Gotenks as a combination of two completely different people.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:20 pm

Only the protagonist can be the strongest character at the end of a saga. Gohan had his moment of stardom. By the Kid Buu saga, after being demoted, he'd get beaten by SSJ3 Goku. That's just how it works.

Vegeta is now the co-main, so naturally, he'd surpass Gotenks and Gohan--even BEFORE getting god powers. Didn't even need SSJ3. It comes with the position.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:35 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Only the protagonist can be the strongest character at the end of a saga. Gohan had his moment of stardom. By the Kid Buu saga, after being demoted, he'd get beaten by SSJ3 Goku. That's just how it works.

Vegeta is now the co-main, so naturally, he'd surpass Gotenks and Gohan--even BEFORE getting god powers. Didn't even need SSJ3. It comes with the position.
It works that way because the main characters get power-ups which take them past everyone else (special training, SSJ, SSJ3 before the kids got powered up). It doesn't just magically happen without any mention or implication of how or why. At least, it's never done so before, and hence if it does so now, it'll be really dumb.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Doctor. » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:37 pm

Captain Space wrote:
dbgtFO wrote:
Captain Space wrote:One hopes that they won't apply this kind of logic in Super until after God forms have been divvied out and it actually makes sense.
They already have Vegeta stating Goku is number #1 in the universe and the strongest Saiyan, which makes sense, since it's a continuation of the anime, where Goku was top dog.
Well, I interpreted that as a combination of:

-Meaning pure saiyans.

-Discounting Gohan who hasn't trained for years--barring like, one day--and got his power through a magical ritual (and has done nothing to maintain it), and discounting Gotenks as a combination of two completely different people.
Vegeta was referring to the speech he made back in the Boo arc, where he also said Goku was #1, this isn't anything new, I don't know why people are making a big fuss out of it.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:40 pm

I mean, Vegeta's spent a lot of the time with the mindset that no-one but himself and Goku really matters in the grand scheme of things so it's not surprising, indeed.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by supercat » Sat Jul 18, 2015 4:53 pm

dbgtFO wrote:
supercat wrote:I think that fight in particular was referring to SSJ3 Goku from the original series, who we know was a complete fodder in comparison to his son.
Yes, and in all probability, the powers that be wouldn't agree with that.
I think we're over analyzing this a bit. Barring the involvement of writers, plot, etc., Goku wouldn't stand a chance whatsoever.

Actually, even then, if this fight were to have gone down sometime during Super Buu's reign, it could have been used as a turning point where Goku challenges Gohan in hopes of testing his abilities. The hero's defeat would then signify the epic moment where he passes the torch to his son.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:06 pm

It works that way because the main characters get power-ups which take them past everyone else (special training, SSJ, SSJ3 before the kids got powered up). It doesn't just magically happen without any mention or implication of how or why. At least, it's never done so before, and hence if it does so now, it'll be really dumb.
Vegeta's magical rage boost > SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan.

The wondrous thing about SSJ3 Goku during the Buu saga is that we NEVER saw him at 100%. First, he held back against Fat Buu. Then, he couldn't draw up the sufficient amount of ki against Kid Buu due to not being used to his living body. Disregarding a small line Goku stated inside Buu, Toriyama could always work around that to make him comparable to Gohan if he wanted to. The movies sure don't have a problem with it.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 5:33 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:
It works that way because the main characters get power-ups which take them past everyone else (special training, SSJ, SSJ3 before the kids got powered up). It doesn't just magically happen without any mention or implication of how or why. At least, it's never done so before, and hence if it does so now, it'll be really dumb.
Vegeta's magical rage boost > SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks, and Ultimate Gohan.

The wondrous thing about SSJ3 Goku during the Buu saga is that we NEVER saw him at 100%. First, he held back against Fat Buu. Then, he couldn't draw up the sufficient amount of ki against Kid Buu due to not being used to his living body. Disregarding a small line Goku stated inside Buu, Toriyama could always work around that to make him comparable to Gohan if he wanted to. The movies sure don't have a problem with it.
Point is with Vegeta's power-up they acknowledge that it's a power-up. That's not what's being implied here. What's being implied here (by comments like the above "Vegeta is now the co-main, so naturally, he'd surpass Gotenks and Gohan--even BEFORE getting god powers. Didn't even need SSJ3. It comes with the position.") is that for some reason Goku and Vegeta will just be presented as above Gohan and Gotenks with no explanation, no indication how or why, or even any line like "Hey, they got stronger!" Just because they're the main characters. Which I don't think should happen, and I kinda doubt that it will to be honest, given that our enemies for the next arc are all god-tier and will kick everyone's ass more or less equally (barring specifically marvelled-at new power-ups like Vegeta in the movie version), and after that Goku and Vegeta will be god-tier too so then there's no question they'll be stronger. (And in any case, if it does happen that they're just presented as stronger than Gohan and Gotenks from the get-go, I still hold that'll be dumb and, given that god forms aren't too far off, kind of unnecessary.)

Said small line being the only direct comparison between Goku and Super Buu...disregarding it would be, uh, really weird.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by fadeddreams5 » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:49 pm

Hey, I don't like the idea. I'm just saying, I wouldn't be surprised, considering GT and the movies all make Goku (and in BoG's case, Vegeta) superior to Gohan with no real explanation.

I want to be proven wrong in Super. I'd love Gohan to be considered the strongest until SSJG comes into the picture. But I'm pretty sure everything will go unmentioned.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:59 pm

fadeddreams5 wrote:Hey, I don't like the idea. I'm just saying, I wouldn't be surprised, considering GT and the movies all make Goku (and in BoG's case, Vegeta) superior to Gohan with no real explanation.

I want to be proven wrong in Super. I'd love Gohan to be considered the strongest until SSJG comes into the picture. But I'm pretty sure everything will go unmentioned.
Fair enough. To be honest I'm fine with it in anything taking place EoZ and beyond, because it's fairly obvious Goku and Vegeta have spent a decade training and Gohan has spent a decade studying (which is of course not a bad thing, just not exactly conducive to a power increase), so them overtaking him in that time is reasonable. It'd just annoy me if it happened in half a year.

But yeah, it wouldn't be too surprising I suppose, if annoying.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Avenged » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:23 pm

What's all this about Goku vs Gohan?

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:37 pm

Neither Goku nor Vegeta can ever catch up to Gohan by "training". The gap is too wide, and both have no room left to grow.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Captain Space » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:41 pm

Rocketman wrote:Neither Goku nor Vegeta can ever catch up to Gohan by "training". The gap is too wide, and both have no room left to grow.
How do you know there's no room? There's a world of difference between, say, SSJ2 adult Gohan and Majin SSJ2 Vegeta; or SSJ Goku on Namek and SSJ Goku at the Cell Games. Who's to say Goku can't get much stronger in SSJ3?

A main character, especially a saiyan, being flat-out unable to get stronger seems a rather odd claim to make of DBZ.
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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by Rocketman » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:55 pm

SS3 is so strong a living body can't hold it. Even Gotenks, a magically-created and far stronger being, can't sustain SS3. Goku can't get more powerful in SS3 for the same reason he can't use Kaioken x25,000 - his body just can't do it, no matter how much he trains.

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Re: What are your top 3 dream fights?

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Jul 18, 2015 7:56 pm

Captain Space wrote:How do you know there's no room? There's a world of difference between, say, SSJ2 adult Gohan and Majin SSJ2 Vegeta; or SSJ Goku on Namek and SSJ Goku at the Cell Games. Who's to say Goku can't get much stronger in SSJ3?

A main character, especially a saiyan, being flat-out unable to get stronger seems a rather odd claim to make of DBZ.
It's not us that say this, it's Goku himself.

After the RoSaT, he admitted that he didn't have any more room to get extremely stronger, and even if he had trained for another day inside the RoSaT, he still wouldn't be able to beat Cell, which is why he didn't stay inside for a full day in the first place.

After 7 years of intense training in Heaven with Kaio, he did become stronger, but he didn't become much stronger than Gohan was at the Cell Games, and his major increases in power came from SS2 & SS3. As a Super Saiyan 3, he was at around the same level as Pure Boo, but he still wasn't strong enough to kill Boo, unless he was able to fire a full-power blast. So, he wanted to have a rematch with Boo's reincarnation, and until that time would come, he did intense training in order for him to be able to beat him in a one-on-one fight.

So, 10 years later, Oob finally appears. Goku expected Oob to be a trained fighter, and he expected his power to so great that he might lose. It turned out that Oob was untrained, but his power was exactly as great as Goku expected. Logically, for Oob to have met Goku's expectations without any training, he should be about as strong as Pure Boo. And SS3 Gotenks was about x8 stronger than Pure Boo, and Ultimate Gohan was even stronger than Gotenks.

So, how can Goku be stronger than Gohan, or even Gotenks, when he isn't even sure that he can defeat someone at Pure Boo's level? Why would Goku suddenly become many times stronger when he has both said & shown that he isn't capable of such gains anymore?
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