Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Like I said in that other thread:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It's not us that say this, it's Goku himself.
After the RoSaT, he admitted that he didn't have any more room to get extremely stronger, and even if he had trained for another day inside the RoSaT, he still wouldn't be able to beat Cell, which is why he didn't stay inside for a full day in the first place.
After 7 years of intense training in Heaven with Kaio, he did become stronger, but he didn't become much stronger than Gohan was at the Cell Games, and his major increases in power came from SS2 & SS3. As a Super Saiyan 3, he was at around the same level as Pure Boo, but he still wasn't strong enough to kill Boo, unless he was able to fire a full-power blast. So, he wanted to have a rematch with Boo's reincarnation, and until that time would come, he did intense training in order for him to be able to beat him in a one-on-one fight.
So, 10 years later, Oob finally appears. Goku expected Oob to be a trained fighter, and he expected his power to so great that he might lose. It turned out that Oob was untrained, but his power was exactly as great as Goku expected. Logically, for Oob to have met Goku's expectations without any training, he should be about as strong as Pure Boo. And SS3 Gotenks was about x8 stronger than Pure Boo, and Ultimate Gohan was even stronger than Gotenks.
So, how can Goku be stronger than Gohan, or even Gotenks, when he isn't even sure that he can defeat someone at Pure Boo's level? Why would Goku suddenly become many times stronger when he has both said & shown that he isn't capable of such gains anymore?
It's not me that places Gohan & Gotenks so high, it's the manga itself.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Mr. Boo was in the tournament, and he was planning to beat him if he was to fight him, so the no-SS rule wasn't there this time.
Who said Goku can't be Innocent Boo without Super Saiyan?
Goku, by saying that he may lose in an all-out fight with Oob.
there is always a way to get stronger, in gokus case also i think he could have gotten stronger in the rosat but he intended for gohan to finish cell off anyway. also gohan was even with full powered regular perfect cell after coming out. and while goku was in the chamber he didnt know that cell absorbed 18 in the meantime and got wayyyy stronger than he was before.
he counted on gohans hidden powers. and my guess is that he wanted a year left if the situation ever calls for it in the future.
I always held SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan on the same tier of transformations, but with Gohan being stronger than Gotenks, and the latter being stronger than Goku. It made sense to me that Super Buu was equal to Kid Buu and allowed the character differences to be had in terms of power, because Goku matched Kid Buu, while Gotenks had more firepower than Super Buu, and Gohan more strength overall. So, in a way:
- Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu = Kid Buu >= SSJ3 Goku.
Placing Super Buu and Kid Buu on the same level had the advantage of considering their personality differences, hence "being the most dangerous", and not the most powerful. Gohan always had his potential, Gotenks was a fusion, and Goku had heaven's training. It only seemed plausible that Vegeta wanted a rematch by training, but if we're going to consider the additional material to the manga, then Goku would be way ahead of him for it to be a possibility, before the God power.
Akira Toriyama may have left things open in the original manga run, writing with nuance to give away the idea of Goku as the #1, and of Gohan as the strongest at the same time, but editors and producers are often anxious to set things in stone for consumers alike, and that is why I'll stick to my own version of Dragon Ball.
Truhan wrote:I always held SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Mystic Gohan on the same tier of transformations, but with Gohan being stronger than Gotenks, and the latter being stronger than Goku. It made sense to me that Super Buu was equal to Kid Buu and allowed the character differences to be had in terms of power, because Goku matched Kid Buu, while Gotenks had more firepower than Super Buu, and Gohan more strength overall. So, in a way:
- Mystic Gohan > SSJ3 Gotenks >= Super Buu = Kid Buu >= SSJ3 Goku.
Placing Super Buu and Kid Buu on the same level had the advantage of considering their personality differences, hence "being the most dangerous", and not the most powerful. Gohan always had his potential, Gotenks was a fusion, and Goku had heaven's training. It only seemed plausible that Vegeta wanted a rematch by training, but if we're going to consider the additional material to the manga, then Goku would be way ahead of him for it to be a possibility, before the God power.
Akira Toriyama may have left things open in the original manga run, writing with nuance to give away the idea of Goku as the #1, and of Gohan as the strongest at the same time, but editors and producers are often anxious to set things in stone for consumers alike, and that is why I'll stick to my own version of Dragon Ball.
Most of which is fine, but the original manga run also has Goku saying he could take Kid Buu, but not Super Buu.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
Captain Space wrote:Most of which is fine, but the original manga run also has Goku saying he could take Kid Buu, but not Super Buu.
Super Buu can have varying levels of power through anger. Remember that he was pure Evil before eating Mr. Buu, so we're left with an option where Super Buu is suppressed, but with the potential to grow stronger. If you have a look at this you will probably get my stance, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. This is about Gohan and Gotenks.
I'll be upset if Vegeta is stronger than Gohan in the beginning of Super. There's no way a few months of training can close the gap between Ultimate Gohan and SSJ2 Vegeta. It took Vegeta 7 years to surpass Gohan after the Cell Games. And the gap between their powers after Kid Buu is even greater. SSJ2 Vegeta<Fat Buu<Super Buu<Ultimate Gohan.
I honestly do prefer the concept that Goku being surpassed because it makes sense that Goku as a fighter, could run into an obstacle he simply couldn't surpass by buckling down and doing hardcore training. Meanwhile Gotenks is a fighter with greater potential due to being a fused warrior and Gohan has his previously stated hidden power brought out and some by a magical technique from Rou Kaioshin, it makes a better story in that Goku would have to get creative and chop his opponent down strategically as a result of reaching a limit rather than brawl his brains out hoping he'll win.
"Why is a raven like a writing desk?" - The Mad Hatter
Captain Space wrote:Most of which is fine, but the original manga run also has Goku saying he could take Kid Buu, but not Super Buu.
Super Buu can have varying levels of power through anger. Remember that he was pure Evil before eating Mr. Buu, so we're left with an option where Super Buu is suppressed, but with the potential to grow stronger. If you have a look at this you will probably get my stance, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. This is about Gohan and Gotenks.
Super Buu was never shown to get rage boosts, that was just Fat Buu. Super Buu could sense ki and suppress/raise his power levels.
Goku continuing to train despite knowing he'll never top Gohan, just out of the sheer love of self-improvement, is much better characterization than GOKU STRONGEST ALWAYS NO MATTER WHAT
And...no possibility of a middle ground where Gohan will be the strongest for a long while but Goku will eventually pass him and so on and so forth, i.e. that the top position will continue to shift as it always, always has?
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
The character re-introduction page in the penultimate chapter (the "this is what everyone is like 10 years later" page) specifically says for Goku (and Vegeta and Piccolo) "No change". We don't know the exact age saiyans finally start showing signs of old age, but from that we can assume that by EoZ they haven't hit it yet.
"Actually I didn’t know what Bulma’s real hair color was" --Toriyama
I've had this theory for a while now that while Gotenks and Gohan are stronger than Goku their lack of fighting skill and unreliability makes Goku the earth's best bet against a foe. So even though Gotenks is far stronger than Kid Buu having him on the battlefield could end up making everything worse (a.k.a. him getting absorbed).
And as for Vegeta calling Goku number 1: Vegeta doesn't care about Gotenks and Gohan. Same as how he didn't care about Dodoria and Zarbon who were stronger than him for most of his life.
The manga flat out practically stated that Gotenks and Mystic Gohan were the strongest heroes in the universe and seemed destined to save the day. Then they got shafted so Goku could get the final kill against Majin Boo in the manga, and ever since then, despite the original manga's instance on Gotenks and Mystic Gohan being superior to Goku, Toei, and to extent Toriyma, have been pretty adamant of their instance that Goku, and by and extension Vegeta, still remains the strongest. Movie 13, GT, BOG and ROF, all have an instance(s) where Gohan or Gotenks could have easily stepped in to save the day but instead Goku and/or Vegeta is given the spotlight via deus ex machina or a new transformation, so that fans will hopefully forget Mystic Gohan and Gotenks > Goku and/or Vegeta.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
It's not so difficult to imagine Goku and Vegeta stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, since they were the ones who defeated Majin Boo instead. But the youngers were supposed to surpass the elders from the beggining. Perhaps, due to some kind of feeling, the story changed the spotlight to Goku and Vegeta.
Hugo Boss wrote:It's not so difficult to imagine Goku and Vegeta stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, since they were the ones who defeated Majin Boo instead. But the youngers were supposed to surpass the elders from the beggining. Perhaps, due to some kind of feeling, the story changed the spotlight to Goku and Vegeta.
They defeated a much weaker version of Buu who was specifically created so they could fight him without getting fucked up.
Barring BoG, FnF, and possibly Super, it all boils down to perception. Despite having lower power levels, Goku and Vegeta were the ones to take down the final villain.
The audience could easily overlook the fact that the duo defeated a weaker version of Buu simply because the final showdown was staged so dramatically. I mean nothing in the Buu arc quite tops the whole Spirit Bomb ordeal.
Truhan wrote:Super Buu can have varying levels of power through anger. Remember that he was pure Evil before eating Mr. Buu, so we're left with an option where Super Buu is suppressed, but with the potential to grow stronger. If you have a look at this you will probably get my stance, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. This is about Gohan and Gotenks.
Super Buu was never shown to get rage boosts, that was just Fat Buu. Super Buu could sense ki and suppress/raise his power levels.
Thanks. It still helps the theory that at his lowest he could be equal to Kid Buu, and that his maximum would be equal to his original form.
Hugo Boss wrote:It's not so difficult to imagine Goku and Vegeta stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, since they were the ones who defeated Majin Boo instead. But the youngers were supposed to surpass the elders from the beggining. Perhaps, due to some kind of feeling, the story changed the spotlight to Goku and Vegeta.
They defeated a much weaker version of Buu who was specifically created so they could fight him without getting fucked up.
But they finished the main quest, that garnered them enough XP to level up past Gohan and Gotenks.
Hugo Boss wrote:It's not so difficult to imagine Goku and Vegeta stronger than Gohan and Gotenks, since they were the ones who defeated Majin Boo instead. But the youngers were supposed to surpass the elders from the beggining. Perhaps, due to some kind of feeling, the story changed the spotlight to Goku and Vegeta.
They defeated a much weaker version of Buu who was specifically created so they could fight him without getting fucked up.
Great, but Goku and Vegeta were the ones who ended up creating this final Boo. Gohan and Gotenks were defeated by the previous version. I guess what really matters in this case is your ability to win the fight. Statements about Boo being the strongest character - before they knew Beerus, of course - or Goku being the #1 by accomplishing the task of defeating Boo are very frequent in the story nowadays.
I understand the sentiment about Gohan and Gotenks being put aside, since they should know from the experience to avoid being absorbed a second time. I wouldn't say they were incompetent at all.
