FUNi's S1 FAQ is shit and here is why (56k warning):

[MajinVejitaXV]

*post snipped*

No prob about the response, I completely sympathize with the work angle. And thanks again for the compliments, I'm just a dork like everyone else

I've got my DragonBoxes in my entertainment center behind glass, but I admittedly am...surgical when I handle them. That's why it took me a few days to pull the screenshot for the above comparisons. And don't worry about the bootleg thing, I honestly think the original poster of that pic didn't realize it was a bootleg until later and I personally didn't think twice except to notice that the colors looked a little oversaturated.

You bring up a good point however. I wouldn't be surprised if some sort of miscommunication/miscalculation took place and I don't rule it out, but you've gotta figure with a contract (especially an expensive remastering project) that the client, being FUNimation, would have the brand manager or someone signing off on the specifications (and typically, a company will make a demo to show what the footage will look like before telecining the entire body of work). I agree though, whether it was on purpose or by negligence, a combination of ignorance and desire to cash in on buzzwords is to blame on this one. I just hope FUNi learns that such decisions are detrimental to their marketing of a given product, so they don't try this with another series and so other anime companies don't follow their lead.

BTW, I linked to this on AnimeonDVD and FUNi's forum so...we might be getting more replies. I seriously wanna get the word out there and see what people think.

I'm tired and falling asleep at the keys, so I'm out. I'll check back tomorrow, you crazy kids have fun

-Corey

[Mr.Piccolo]

What I want to know is what would FUNi lose by selling episodes that would be like DragonBoxes? Do they think this generation prefers widescreen? Most newer tvs have an option to "stretch" the image, why force us to watch it that way?
-Rick

[Sebastian (SB)]

Overscan??!!!.......IT'S OVERSCAN 5000!!!!!!!

[Gokuden553]

Great post, Corey/others.

So here's that Gohan R2 D-box shot (taken for another thread):

But shouldn't that be the quality of what you should expect from a master by Funimation on DVD, such as when other companies releace their anime series the colours always look much more bright and clear than a RAW file... also their sholdn't be any grain left in the final product that comes out in shops reguardless if Japan's Dragon Box DVD's originally had it.

[Mystery Person X]

2. Overscan only matters/mattered on old CRT, tube TVs - not on new widescreen TVs, flat-panel TVs, HDTVs, monitors, or HTPCs

Widescreen TVs are affected by overscan as well. That's exactly why it's so shifty for FUNi to overscan-crop the 4:3 shot but not the 16:9 shot: When watched on a 16:9 TV, the 16:9 image will have even more missing because of overscan.

[tarsonis]

Widescreen TVs are affected by overscan as well. That's exactly why it's so shifty for FUNi to overscan-crop the 4:3 shot but not the 16:9 shot: When watched on a 16:9 TV, the 16:9 image will have even more missing because of overscan.

Now does this only affect a 16:9 CRT TV, or any 16:9 screen?

[MajinVejitaXV]

Now does this only affect a 16:9 CRT TV, or any 16:9 screen?

Good question. My television is a Pioneer Premier Pro910-HD and when I calibrated it, the disc I used had overscan images and I had little or no overscan (we're talking 0-1%). So, it's fully dependant on the setup...but if FUNi's gonna assume all 4:3 televisions will automatically kill 10% on a 4:3 image, then they have to assume that a 4:3 television will kill 10% on the *sides* of a 16:9 image as well.

-Corey

Edit:

But shouldn't that be the quality of what you should expect from a master by Funimation on DVD, such as when other companies releace their anime series the colours always look much more bright and clear than a RAW file... also their sholdn't be any grain left in the final product that comes out in shops reguardless if Japan's Dragon Box DVD's originally had it.

Not at all. Playing with color saturation can make things look *brighter*, but not necessarily better. As for grain, eliminating it may look good in stillframes, but in motion it leads to loss of detail.

[Mystery Person X]

Now does this only affect a 16:9 CRT TV, or any 16:9 screen?

In theory, any. It certainly affects my mum's LCD. But of course it varies from setup to setup.

My television is a Pioneer Premier Pro910-HD and when I calibrated it, the disc I used had overscan images and I had little or no overscan (we're talking 0-1%).

That you calibrated it is an important point. It wasn't 0-1% overscan straight out of the box, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) And how many people will actually go to the trouble of calibrating their sets, especially in the future when HDTVs will be the "standard" type of TV owned by any given person?

[MajinVejitaXV]

That you calibrated it is an important point. It wasn't 0-1% overscan straight out of the box, right? (Correct me if I'm wrong here.) And how many people will actually go to the trouble of calibrating their sets, especially in the future when HDTVs will be the "standard" type of TV owned by any given person?

Actually, since I couldn't access the service menus, it was that small out of the box. The only things I really had to play with were the color, brightness, contrast and so forth. Keep in mind also that my DVD player uses an HDMI connection, since I know that connection medium can be a factor.

And yeah, sadly a lot of people don't calibrate their stuff. I did it because if I was gonna buy a nice TV, I wanted to use it to the fullest (and I didn't want burn-in, since it's a plasma). Reference levels ftw

-Corey

[Mystery Person X]

Fair enough. My understanding is that it's still fairly common though.

[MajinVejitaXV]

Fair enough. My understanding is that it's still fairly common though.

I wouldn't be surprised, but everywhere I've looked says it's more a 3-5% thing, with 10% being a worst case scenario that doesn't occur too often in modern sets. Either way, since it's something that depends on a person's TV and DVD player, I think we both agree it's not the best justification

-Corey

[G1Ravage]

I have a 27" 4:3 HDTV, and my overscan is pretty horrible. At will, I can "minimize" the entire picture by bringing up my digital cable's program guide, and I can see just how much picture I'm missing on the left and right sides of the screen. It's ridiculous. And it's even worse when watching something on my DVD player. I have no idea why.

[Domon]

Hah, anyway - you know, since my last post above, - I've been thinking about this. With all the evidence we've looked at and what they've told us - I am now beginning to wonder if what has happened here is that Funi actually just sort of "honestly" and legitimately made a mistake during their re-mastering process. That the whole "widescreen" thing was actually a mistake they made from the beginning.

They've already proven that certain execs there handling the property obviously don't know jack about the details/truth of film framing, restoration, mastering, what have you. Maybe at the beginning of this project - Funi took the film reel that they had acquired to some remastering firm - and one of the employees there said "hmm, how do you want this done - there's space available to decide - so um, you want it wide-screen, full-screen or what?!". The employee was just doing his job, asking what the customer wants done exactly - but the Funi idiots heard wide-screen and went "Woooooh, 'wide-screen' - aw, yeah, the new sexy buzz word of day for DVD/TVs - aw, yeah, of course - that MUST be what we want here!".

I'm inclined to doubt that it was an "accident" as you implied, but rather a consciene choice to "hip up" the series. In one the other widescreen threads, someone suggested that Funimation may have little faith in the series "as-is" and feels it needs "fixing" to be accepted by today's audiences. It wouldn't surprise me, given the trend towards "updating" existing films. The original Star Wars and Star Trek series were recently given new CG effects inserted in, and there was the whole idea of colorizing black and white films(at least that idea didn't get very far). All because, apparently, we can't accept it when something shows its age a bit. Wow, that looks 20/30/40 years old, gotta fix it! Who could possibly be willing to accept something that's a few years old and actully enjoy it? Unthinkable!


As others have said, I've got to hand it to Funimation for their choice of screenshot. That overscan shot sure looks cramped doesn't it? The "widescreen" version sure looks roomy and comfortable, don't it? Nevermind a scene where there's a lot of action at the top and bottom...

Of course, one is tempted to ask them, if Dragonball was "intended" to be shown in widescreen(nevermind that it's from a time where pan-and-scan videos of movies was the norm), why aren't other anime of the time period being released in widescreen? Why isn't Macross in widescreen? Shouldn't Gatchaman be in "X-Treme widescreen"?(some of those extreme closeup of Sosai X would look like ass in widescreen...) Their response would be... what? That other compaines are not giving you the full picture? Wouldn't surprise me if they did say that.

I also have to wonder about their claims of "going back to the original film print and remastering it". Have they, or did they just "fix up" their existing copy? Their statement about cropping out damages(instead of actually fixing it) has me suspect. If they do have the "original film prints", shouldn't they be able to do better than that? But I'm no expert on remastering/film restorations, so I'm not sure to what extend things can be fixed.

[DBW]

Ok, having looked at FUNimation's FAQ, not only am I insulted with the overscan crap, but I have to call them out on the "original film masters" bullshit as well. There is no way in holy hell that this is the same film source used to remaster the Dragon Boxes. Obviously they are getting a film source here, but as I expected, it seems to be several generations in the toilet (ie. it's complete garbage). They would have done just as well to just keep their original betamax tapes, or whatever the hell they previously used.

Ok, so here's FUNimation's new film source...


And here is a shot taken by Corey from the Dragon Box...


With one overlayed on the other (ignoring ratios and whatnot), take a look at the color and level of grain in the two images. The Dragon Box image is nearly flawless, while the raw FUNi image is atrocious looking...



So what? Dragon Box was remastered, right? Why wouldn't it look better?

Well, here's the problem. The Dragon Box is a cleaned-up presentation of the *actual* original film source (in other words, the original photography), completely unaltered. When remastering the Dragon Box footage, Pony Canyon (the company in charge of the release) removed physical damage only! Aside from nics, scratches and glue on the film, nothing was actually altered. There was no digital filter to remove grain, alter colors, or anything of that nature. The photography itself is completely unaltered.

Therefore, the above Dragon Box image of Gregory and Kaio is what the original film actually looks like (minus damage), and the raw FUNimation image is clearly not from the original film source, but is instead a late generation copy, and in horrible condition to boot.

Examples of the Dragon Box remastering:
Dirt removed from the frame, otherwise the image goes unaltered...


Again, dirt and scratches removed, while the image goes unaltered...


Here's some examples from actual footage in motion:
The raw 16mm film played at the 4:3 broadcast ratio...


The remastered version, almost identical to the film source, with the exception of a little dirt here and there. This also shows how careful they were during remastering...what appears to be two specs of dirt in the middle are actually Tenshinhan and Chaozu at a great distance. A half-assed editor might have wiped those dots away, not realizing they are part of the animation.


And here's a very extreme example from the second opening animation...


Beautifully restored, without altering the original animation...



Anyways, I think I've made my point. Contrasting actual original film (which can basically be seen in any Dragon Box screen shot) to FUNimation's new film, there is absolutely no way in hell that they are working with original, or even adequate materials.

Overscan comparison = Kiss my ass, FUNimation.
"Original Film Master" = No. Plain and simple.

[Kendamu]

Nice images! I always knew that the Dragon Box DVDs were excellent but I never knew they were that excellent.

Now I want to get the R2 DVDs even more!

[BrollysKin]

Guys, lets just fucking see what Funis end result is before we talk about quality issues. Jesus Christ! (Is Lord and Saviour)

[Eclipse]

Ok, having looked at FUNimation's FAQ, not only am I insulted with the overscan crap, but I have to call them out on the "original film masters" bullshit as well. There is no way in holy hell that this is the same film source used to remaster the Dragon Boxes. Obviously they are getting a film source here, but as I expected, it seems to be several generations in the toilet (ie. it's complete garbage). They would have done just as well to just keep their original betamax tapes, or whatever the hell they previously used.

Ok, so here's FUNimation's new film source...


Therefore, the above Dragon Box image of Gregory and Kaio is what the original film actually looks like (minus damage), and the raw FUNimation image is clearly not from the original film source, but is instead a late generation copy, and in horrible condition to boot.

I think I might get shot at this, but what if that's the pre-existing film they've been using for their past releases? I don't think they mentioned that the film shown was the one used for remastering.

Besides, this is really starting to turn out to be something stupid =P
Some FAQ that was anyways Only two questions, only one question not being properly fucked up. At the very least, we're getting dub music.

Still, they have yet to show anything real good. I want to see FUNi pull a random video out of their ass (No wait, two) showing their 'remastering' process. =)

[Duo]

Guys, lets just fucking see what Funis end result is before we talk about quality issues. Jesus Christ! (Is Lord and Saviour)

If not for that tiny text, I would have asked "what does my Father have to do with Dragonball DVD video quality?"

But yeah, I'm done with this issue until I'm watching the likely butured product.

[Kendamu]

Guys, lets just fucking see what Funis end result is before we talk about quality issues. Jesus Christ! (Is Lord and Saviour)

The evidence is right in front of us with the screens so we can easily talk about quality. By the way, I hate tiny text. See my sig.

I see where you're coming from.

[DBW]

Guys, lets just fucking see what Funis end result is before we talk about quality issues. Jesus Christ! (Is Lord and Saviour)

But the end product doesn't tell the entire story. Look at the amount of grain in their new film source. To remove that they're gonna have to run the film through all sorts of filters, most likely altering the colors and distorting the details (just like in their previous releases). Then when we all get the final product and wonder "hey, why does this not look like it should?" we'll have the answer. They are not working from an adequate source!

They also seem to be using the widescreen to avoid costly remastering to the glue/damage which is present on the top and bottom of many frames. On top of which they're marketing this as the "original film masters", and although it's technically true, it's a very misleading statement. I don't know why people are defending this crap. They're revealing lots of information in this FAQ (unintentionally), and I don't see the merit in simply turning a blind eye to the issue.

If you want to buy it and see for yourself then go right ahead, I'm not stopping you. But why should we all play ignorant in the meantime?

I think I might get shot at this, but what if that's the pre-existing film they've been using for their past releases? I don't think they mentioned that the film shown was the one used for remastering.

No, the image they posted is from a 16mm source. FUNimation's original copies were on betamax I believe, and already framed in the correct 4:3 ratio. If Toei released the 16mm footage for foreign masters, then we would be seeing episodes from different countries framed/aligned differently.

Still, they have yet to show anything real good. I want to see FUNi pull a random video out of their ass (No wait, two) showing their 'remastering' process. =)

Well, we can pretty much take a stab in the dark as far as their remastering goes. Most likely it'll be similar to the process they previously used, just a little more professional (no saturation hopefully). I'm more interested in an explaination, myself. Why the choice to re-frame the entire series in the incorrect widescreen ratio? So far, avoiding glue and other complicated film damage is the only logical explaination...