How do you deal with overpower in the series?

[Sayo-chan]

He knows who Goku & Vegeta is, he knows Japanese, he knows how to fight, he knows how to go Super Saiyan, he knows exactly who Majin Boo is and what abilities he has. We have seen enough to know how Vegetto's mind works, it's a combination of Goku's & Vegeta's, and he knows everything they know.

I bolded what I agree with and underlined what I disagree with. He may know everything they know, but he may not. Ultimately the relevant knowledge stuffed away in Vegetto's head is a posteriori knowledge. It doesn't make any sense for every single memory to flood Vegetto's mind at once, seeing that like everyone else, he has selective attention. This means that all empirical based knowledge (e.g. SSJ3) is a posteriori knowledge. A priori knowledge of Goku using SSJ3 is dependent on this, but not necessarily SSJ3 itself. It's just that Goku is the only real valid source of it here. So if Vegetto doesn't think it, he's never actually had knowledge of it. I didn't know calculus until I learned it. The requirements never crossed my mind. These memories that pop in at any given time are new to Vegetto, just as it was new for me to learn matrices. Now, that's only half the problem. All this tells us is that Vegetto may or may not know how SSJ3 works. That's all that amounts to. The second half is, again, by extension of being ignorant of himself, he may not know how it would work for him.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I bolded what I agree with and underlined what I disagree with. He may know everything they know, but he may not.

Is there any indication that he may not?

[Sayo-chan]

I bolded what I agree with and underlined what I disagree with. He may know everything they know, but he may not.

Is there any indication that he may not?

I just explained why in my last post. Did you read this?

Ultimately the relevant knowledge stuffed away in Vegetto's head is a posteriori knowledge. It doesn't make any sense for every single memory to flood Vegetto's mind at once, seeing that like everyone else, he has selective attention. This means that all empirical based knowledge (e.g. SSJ3) is a posteriori knowledge. A priori knowledge of Goku using SSJ3 is dependent on this, but not necessarily SSJ3 itself. It's just that Goku is the only real valid source of it here. So if Vegetto doesn't think it, he's never actually had knowledge of it. I didn't know calculus until I learned it. The requirements never crossed my mind. These memories that pop in at any given time are new to Vegetto, just as it was new for me to learn matrices. Now, that's only half the problem. All this tells us is that Vegetto may or may not know how SSJ3 works. That's all that amounts to. The second half is, again, by extension of being ignorant of himself, he may not know how it would work for him.

Your argument is a priori justification, so's mine. They're antithetical to each other. We could argue about whose is more probable, but that's neither here nor there.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So there is no indication that he may not.

You are assuming that Vegetto is a new being that has access to Goku's & Vegeta's memories as if their memories are different "databases" from his own memories, which is also a separate "database". This isn't how I view it. Vegetto's "database" is Goku's & Vegeta's "databases" merged together. This is what I feel that the series shows us. SS3 doesn't have to cross Vegetto's mind in order for him to know about it among other things, since he has technically been alive for over 40 years.

[Sayo-chan]

So there is no indication that he may not.

As I have told you:

Your argument is a priori justification, so's mine. They're antithetical to each other. We could argue about whose is more probable, but that's neither here nor there.

You are assuming that Vegetto is a new being that has access to Goku's & Vegeta's memories as if their memories are different "databases" from his own memories, which is also a separate "database". This isn't how I view it. Vegetto's "database" is Goku's & Vegeta's "databases" merged together. This is what I feel that the series shows us. SS3 doesn't have to cross Vegetto's mind in order for him to know about it among other things, since he has technically been alive for over 40 years.

I've bolded what I agree with and underlined what I disagree with. I'm not assuming that. It could be that way, but there's not enough information to know. What's known is that their memories intertwine somehow. Vegetto's age is up for debate, but I'll state right out that I'm in favor of him not being that old. Vegetto is a new being, that much isn't disputable. Because of this, everything I've stated applies. And also, as I've mentioned a couple times now, this is still only the first half of the problem.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Let's just agree that we disagree.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I haven't felt like any of the characters are particularly powerful. We are told they are powerful but it is rare we ever see it. Beers being able to destroy a planet with his finger nail is about the strongest display we've had in thirty years and even then the display itself isn't all that impressive looking.

This has all but killed strength discussions for me too. Going by what the series wants us to think, we should have been seeing interplanetary battles basically since Cell showed up. We never got that because no one wants to animate it (I presume) and it betrays Dragon Ball's martial arts parody roots, so we're left with characters of limitless power demonstrating their limitless power by their performance against other beings of limitless power while both being clocked as decidedly stronger than that other guy with limitless power. I think people argue so vehemently about bits like Cell's purportedly Solar System-smashing Kamehameha and whether or not Fusion is considered in newer strength comparisons because they do not want it to be that simple, they want power escalation to continue to mean something.

[gojirason]

"Overpowered"?

As far as I can tell, most all evidence in recent history has pointed more and more that the power gaps we all assumed were massive were actually not that big. People aren't getting overpowered, they're getting (from our perspective anyway) crunched together.

This isn't exactly new though; the very introduction of battle powers had a pretty major power crunch effect on pre-Z Dragonball, after all. Suddenly everything had to fit between 300 and 5, and the Daizenshuu figures between the 22nd and 23rd Budokai didn't help.

Personally I find the idea of Vegeta getting dozens or hundreds of times stronger from getting mad to be silly, let alone the idea that nothing remotely similar ever happens under any circumstances for the same character or another like Goku, but it's a sentiment I feel like I'm seeing a lot (in the OP for example), and it's almost entirely due to preconceived notions about earlier story arcs, like the Buu Saga. My own thoughts in light of the "1/10th vs Vegeta" thing is that Beerus isn't actually THAT far ahead, and SSJG isn't THAT big of a powerup. I think the massive fluctuation in power for him is a good example of maybe why trying to fit everything into unchanging inflexible numbers and unchanging invariable multipliers is probably not the best idea. Especially when our understanding of various super saiyan forms goes beyond just "it's this much stronger than that one". If SSJ3 brings out power to the limits, does that mean that SSJ is defined as being exactly 12.5% of full power, and that a Saiyan is defined as accessing exactly 1/400th of their power at any given point? Are there no in-betweens at all?

Unless something gets majorly retconned, Goku is going to remain excited to fight Uub at the end of the series, after all.

(Personally I think if one views SSJs through a different lense, mainly as a function of drawing out hidden power were one doesn't transform until a certain threshold is crossed, it could help explain a lot. That and evidence that perhaps at least Toriyama himself was probably not actually operating under the assumption that the combat performance of a Saiyan was no more than 1/50th the Super Saiyan with the Yakon bit, where Goku is seemingly over 800 arbitrary story units, and his SSJ is 3,000. He even assigns a number of "1,000" to Goku later when he was thinking about fusing with Hercule, so I personally get the feeling that that number was in his mind already, perhaps in notes he kept on power ratios. This would also explain how Vegeta would feel comfortable fighting Piccolo and whatnot. Of course all of this is conjecture, but it makes sense to me.)

[Noah]

It seems that in Episode 10 preview Super Saiyan God Goku can't lend a hit on Beerus yet... Will they make Beerus even more powerful than that or it is just Goku that can't control his newly god powers?

[Helios518]

It seems that in Episode 10 preview Super Saiyan God Goku can't lend a hit on Beerus yet... Will they make Beerus even more powerful than that or it is just Goku that can't control his newly god powers?

I'm leaning towards the latter because Beerus was standing still and Goku zoomed past him.