What´s the obsession with DB needing to be "serious" ?

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

It doesn't need to be serious all the time, but it doesn't need to be humorous all the time either. DB has evolved a lot since the mid 80s, do you want just the same old light hearted, humorous and campy storytelling which just seemed off in Battle of Gods? The series evolved, and so should its tone, and that's just good storytelling which is why I thought the Buu Saga felt like a step backwards. Resurrection F gave me hope after Battle of Gods

You can have good storytelling while being humorous and campy, just like Battle of Gods.

[Cipher]

The Boo arc and Battle of Gods are actually perfect mixes to me -- and while it's cool that Dragon Ball flirts with drastically rising tension and stakes from the Piccolo-Freeza arcs as a way of subverting expectations -- the later, more whimsical arcs subvert just as much. I want it to mix humor and action and, in whatever mode best serves the arc, to surprise me.

But yeah, those two really nail it. I'm not sure I can say the same of Super's first arc, since it's sloppy in a number of ways, but they're some of the best examples of merging high stakes with whimsical, character-based humor for me. In the Boo arc, the whimsy feeds into the drama, with things becoming almost too crazy for the characters to keep up with, while in Battle of Gods, the drama helps feed the character moments and plays off the light-hearted tone to bring out certain thematic elements. I really think F is okay too, if slightly less engaging; but again the mix of humor and action is decent. I hope the next arc offers more surprises, though. One of my favorite things about Toriyama's Dragon Ball content is that it's almost impossible to predict. F is an outlier in that regard.

EDIT -- And don't get me wrong. I love the Piccolo-Freeza arcs because they're such a surprise and build toward a satisfying climax. But the Boo arc is where I think the series really comes into its own and makes a case for how it's extreme aspects can merged in a satisfying way.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

The Boo arc and Battle of Gods are actually perfect mixes to me -- and while it's cool that Dragon Ball flirts with drastically rising tension and stakes from the Piccolo-Freeza arcs as a way of subverting expectations -- the later, more whimsical arcs subvert just as much. I want it to mix humor and action and, in whatever mode best serves the arc, to surprise me.

I stand here as well, and given that I love both of those things I have no issue with that going forward. I think 'F' is a terrible barometer of Toriyama's ability to write a "serious" Dragon Ball story again because it is so limited by its premise, I don't know what the future holds.

[EXBadguy]

Why, cuz that's what most people like, badass stuff! Sure, it ain't 100% serious, hell even the Cell saga wasn't 100% serious, probably about 80-85%. The humor of DB worked but in DBZ, not so much. It only sticked out for a moment, as the series was evolving its tone and themes at the time, the humor started to fade out. Too bad a saga involving a pink fat blob had to ruin the flow.

The Boo arc and Battle of Gods are actually perfect mixes to me -- and while it's cool that Dragon Ball flirts with drastically rising tension and stakes from the Piccolo-Freeza arcs as a way of subverting expectations -- the later, more whimsical arcs subvert just as much. I want it to mix humor and action and, in whatever mode best serves the arc, to surprise me.

I stand here as well, and given that I love both of those things I have no issue with that going forward. I think 'F' is a terrible barometer of Toriyama's ability to write a "serious" Dragon Ball story again because it is so limited by its premise, I don't know what the future holds.

That's why some people are saying he's starting to become senile. #truthhurts

[Cipher]

That's why some people are saying he's starting to become senile. #truthhurts

I don't think that's remotely accurate. Battle of Gods is wonderful, and F is pretty charming and full of Toriyama hallmarks in its own right; it's just not quite the great, full chapter it might have been because it's a 90-minute, mostly for-fun flick. Even then, it's mercifully far from the run-of-the-mill villain+transformation films Toei made during the series' original run, with the villain ultimately being both serious and something of a non-threat, etc.

I just see him as starting to have fun with the series again. If F isn't its finest hour, it's still acceptable and absolutely makes sense for what it is.

It only sticked out

"Stuck."

[EXBadguy]

"Stuck."

I just woke up from a nap, alright?

That's why some people are saying he's starting to become senile. #truthhurts

I don't think that's remotely accurate. Battle of Gods is wonderful, and F is pretty charming and full of Toriyama hallmarks in its own right; it's just not quite the great, full chapter it might have been because it's a 90-minute, mostly for-fun flick. Even then, it's mercifully far from the run-of-the-mill villain+transformation films Toei made during the series' original run, with the villain ultimately being both serious and something of a non-threat, etc.

I just see him as starting to have fun with the series again. If F isn't its finest hour, it's still acceptable and absolutely makes sense for what it is.

Fair point. Maybe that's true, but at the same time, he also has to cater to the fans who like DB mostly for the action, serious tone and the mildly dark storytelling. I don't mind him mixing things up here and there. Just improve, expand on the themes and tones.

[Lord Beerus]

Why, cuz that's what most people like, badass stuff! Sure, it ain't 100% serious, hell even the Cell saga wasn't 100% serious, probably about 80-85%. The humor of DB worked but in DBZ, not so much. It only sticked out for a moment, as the series was evolving its tone and themes at the time, the humor started to fade out. Too bad a saga involving a pink fat blob had to ruin the flow.

If any part of the story ruined the flow in regards to the tone of the plot of Dragon Ball, it was the Freeza arc. Prior to that arc, Dragon Ball always managed to find the right balance of drama and comedy. Even when the Namek arc began we were still treated to hilarity and campiness of the Ginyu Force to counter the dark tone of the story at that time. You could always tell that there was at least a 55:45 ratio when it came to drama and comedy. Then from Freeza taking on the Z-Fighters and on-wards, the ratio became much more one on-sided, like 90:10. Then it became even more extreme in the Android/Cell arc, as there was honestly little to no humor in that arc. The ratio was like 95:5. With the 5% being Mr Satan, who literally provided one or two gag scenes.

[Cipher]

If any part of the story ruined the flow in regards to the tone of the plot of Dragon Ball, it was the Freeza arc. Prior to that arc, Dragon Ball always managed to find the right balance of drama and comedy. Even when the Namek arc began we were still treated to hilarity and campiness of the Ginyu Force to counter the dark tone of the story at that time. You could always tell that there was at least a 55:45 ratio when it came to drama and comedy. The from Freeza taking on the Z-Fighters and on-wards, the ratio became much more one on-sided, like 90:10. Then it became even more extreme in the Android/Cell arc, as there was honestly little to no humor in that arc. The ratio was like 95:5. With the 5% being Mr Satan, who literally provided one or two gag scenes.

Eh; the Namek arc as a whole is pretty dire; from the moment Kuririn, Bulma and Gohan step onto the planet, it's doom and gloom, with the initial whimsy of the Ginyu Squad being a brief reprieve.

But that totally works, because, again, it's acting as the climax to multiple previous arcs and is still in this novel phase of subverting your expectations. Characters train for a year in the Saiyan arc? Moment of come-uppance, right? Nope; everyone dies. Another hunt for the Dragon Balls on Piccolo's home planet? Another adventure ahead after the drama! Nope; the characters are thrown into the most dire, hopeless situation of the entire series. Vegeta's there, but so are his vastly more powerful superiors, who are halfway through committing genocide on the planet. (And extend this thread back to the Piccolo Daimao arc, where Piccolo proceeds to remove every potential threat from the table in a hilariously shocking way.)

But those turns are only shocking for so long. By the middle of the Cell arc, I think they've run their course, and even then a lot of my love for the beginning of that arc comes from the successful use of eerie mystery (a new element! and one used almost as well in the early Boo arc) and the return of some of the more whimsical tone when we realize what #17 and #18 are up to. That stretch of the series also sees the humor and drama divided into separate sections wherein -- yeah, the humor never fully disappears -- but they don't quite connect. You have Kaio and all the whimsical afterlife weirdness in the middle of the Saiyan arc, the Ginyu Squad smackdab in the middle of the Namek arc; I really don't think Mr. Satan fits in at the Cell Games, etc.

The Boo arc is the first time in the serious, cosmically powerful portion of the series those elements really come together in my mind, and it totally works in its frenetic endgame mode. Battle of Gods makes a case for that mix being part of a sustainable tone. Either way, they both manage to keep being surprising, so I hope that whatever comes next keeps that up.

[fadeddreams5]

The Ginyu Force fit perfectly into the dark tone set in the Namek saga. Yeah, they were campy, but also terrifying, especially Recoome. These guys weren't just here for comedic relief; Recoome made Vegeta--one of the greatest threats to the heroes, as well as the main villain of the previous saga--into a rag doll, and proceeded to snap a little kid's neck. The cast was beaten down, and these guys just danced and laughed it off.

If this was modern DBZ, villains like these would solely be used for comedic relief and Gotenks would fight them in some gag-filled battle. It would end with them surrendering and cartoonishly pointing their fingers, vowing to return, or innocently giving up and eating with the cast. How did all this end in DBZ? With Vegeta slaughtering each and every one of them in cold blood. Ginyu turning into a frog was hilarious because it changed the mood for the reader/viewer; this is funny because what predated it was definitely not some gag-filled circus.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Funny, Cipher's last post gave me the illustration I needed for why 'F' didn't work for me; it was very much Mr. Satan at the Cell games in the other direction. As if Freeza's character demanded a little torture in what was otherwise more character fun.

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I think the problem with the current implication of humor is the stronger fact that most of it isnt actually funny, while the greater emphasis is put onto it because the scenarios are being forced into the episodes as sub-plots with no actual direction or depth to their purpose for the plot. My problem with Super is the fact that this is happening. Pilaf being given so much screen time and even an entire episode to do nothing but complain and eat. The difference with GT was that when they were reintroduced, they were not a focus of any portion of an episode but a one-time cameo for reference humor. Because DBZ has gone so far away from DB and the tone has already set the humor away from just cheeky childish pranks, its hard to force that back in and expect it to carry a plot, especially when stakes were raised far out of the importance of what Pilaf does.

How GT handled reintroducing Pilaf was much better, he was brought in as the catalyst of a plot, not the focus of it; and his humor was derived from the dialogue and scenario as thats how Mr. Satan's humor works. They then used him to just play off the nostalgia of the fans by comparing himself to Goku's maturity while being the way to reintroduce Goku as well. Then when the wish was made, it came off the foreshadowing of the last influence Pilaf prompted and ended his Cameo. It was straight to the point and fulfilled the minimum required of it. Super however and BoG featured them in the worst ways as we know they did nothing and nothing came from them. There isn't any relevance for his antics anymore. So they had just featured him to complain and complain in order for fans to at least recognize that about him and made that their attempt at humor. No. It only felt like distracting filler as it had no influence on the plot whatsoever. Thats how bad jokes fail, when they're phone-ins.

[LuckyCat]

I don't think everything needs to be serious, but at the same time it's fair to point out that Toei/Fuji TV has increased the censorship over the years.

I just rewatched BoG and noticed Super changed many more "mature" things like Bulma drinking champagne on her birthday, the blood streaks on the cheeks are no longer visible, and Trunks cuddling with Mai and the whole relationship was taken out.

Of course, Super's timeslot is probably responsible for these changes, I just hope with next movie they keep the "serious" stuff in.

[ABED]

While the Ginyu Force were funny, I don't think it ever undercut them. It just seemed to accentuate their viciousness. I don't mind if the ratio of humor to seriousness changes. I like when stories change it up.

[Deathbringer]

I love funny Dragon Ball and I also love serious Dragon Ball at the same time, I think the Boo saga did it best in terms of mixing together comedy and seriousness with more than enough action. In the other arcs Toriyama had to bring in his own sources of comedy when the series got too serious, like with the Ginyu force and Mr Satan, but in the Boo saga he was given much more creative freedom and the arc benefits greatly from that, not to say that it's the greatest arc in DB or anything, just that it ended the series with the sort of tone I expect everything since to use as an example to adhere to.

[ABED]

I love funny Dragon Ball and I also love serious Dragon Ball at the same time, I think the Boo saga did it best in terms of mixing together comedy and seriousness with more than enough action. In the other arcs Toriyama had to bring in his own sources of comedy when the series got too serious, like with the Ginyu force and Mr Satan, but in the Boo saga he was given much more creative freedom and the arc benefits greatly from that, not to say that it's the greatest arc in DB or anything, just that it ended the series with the sort of tone I expect everything since to use as an example to adhere to.

The Buu arc where any sense of drama and stakes are undercut when both the villain and heroes don't take it serious?

[SingleFringe&Sparks]

I love funny Dragon Ball and I also love serious Dragon Ball at the same time, I think the Boo saga did it best in terms of mixing together comedy and seriousness with more than enough action. In the other arcs Toriyama had to bring in his own sources of comedy when the series got too serious, like with the Ginyu force and Mr Satan, but in the Boo saga he was given much more creative freedom and the arc benefits greatly from that, not to say that it's the greatest arc in DB or anything, just that it ended the series with the sort of tone I expect everything since to use as an example to adhere to.

The Buu arc where any sense of drama and stakes are undercut when both the villain and heroes don't take it serious?

I think the Buu saga did it the best in terms of balance actually. A lot better than the Fusion arc and BoG because the parallels were more clear and complimented each other so that the merge was a bit more seamless. Like the relationship between Babidi & Dabura. The Buu arc started silly but the sense of drama was pretty much saved when Fat Buu befriended Satan, then had been replaced by Super Buu who quickly killed people, then the serious tone was lifted By Gotenks, the serious tone returned with Ultimate Gohan and the darker tone fell in with "Buutenks"etc. It came in cycles rather than being one or the other contrasting extremes.

[ABED]

I think the Buu saga did it the best in terms of balance actually. A lot better than the Fusion arc and BoG because the parallels were more clear and complimented each other so that the merge was a bit more seamless. Like the relationship between Babidi & Dabura. The Buu arc started silly but the sense of drama was pretty much saved when Fat Buu befriended Satan, then had been replaced by Super Buu who quickly killed people, then the serious tone was lifted By Gotenks, the serious tone returned with Ultimate Gohan and the darker tone fell in with "Buutenks"etc. It came in cycles rather than being one or the other contrasting extremes.

The movie BoG might be more on the comedic side, but I never thought the threat of Beerus was undercut. Super Buu kills people but any drama that creates is instantly diminished when Gotenks fights him. The damage was done.

I don't need a balance of comedy and drama, I need them in the right amounts.

[Black_Anime_Fan]

I guess that explains why I thought the Piccolo and Frieza arcs were the best in the entire series, there was less of that Toriyama styled humor which I was never really a fan of. I thought it was great that at some point in the series they tried taking steps forward and shifted the tone, it's not like DB was ever too serious, it isn't Breaking Bad afterall (but I'm not holding that against the show at all!), and it's not like there wasn't enough humor in the series to begin with. Battle of Gods just makes me cringe to watch, and the Buu arc was going great until well, Buu arrives.

You can have good storytelling while being humorous and campy,just like Battle of Gods. Resurrection F

Fixed

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

You can have good storytelling while being humorous and campy,just like Battle of Gods. Resurrection F

Fixed

How dare you !!

[ABED]

The problem isn't humor, it's when the humor undercuts the stakes. That's one of the reasons Marvel's phase two films have bugged me. In one scene Thor is grieving over Loki's death, the very next scene they are making jokes about cell phone reception. Humor and drama can work hand in hand to accentuate both. I don't even mind Battle of God's use of humor because it didn't undercut the stakes. No one got killed and the next scene had them cracking jokes.

I also have no problem with early DB because while it's broader, the stakes weren't as high.