Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

It's really a good list but I'm curious why many people have 21st Goku at the 80's or 90's. I'm currently going with 50, gives me more breathing room later on.

Because I want to keep Kame-sennin's growth smaller. He is an old, and very experienced martial artist, he shouldn't have room to make huge jumps in power.

Well I don't think this works with Goku being at 135 and Roshi 139.

Kame-sennin (Jacky Chun) [#22T#KAM]
Chapter: 113, P14.1-2
Goku: “I hope I beat you this time--!”
Jackie Chun: “Ho ho ho! It seems you’ve trained even more, eh? This will be fun.”
Jackie Chun (thinking): “You’ve got to be kidding. I’m Muten Roshi; I can’t lose no matter what. I’ve been training in secret myself!”

Unless Roshi thought Goku only increased his power by 2-3% in 3 years.

[ZombieVito]

Oh. Well, I already kind of ignore that, and consider Boo-arc Gohan a little bit weaker than his Cell Games self, which I see as a more straightforward interpretation of what's said in the manga. But since Goku and Vegeta would still be stronger than that level from Gohan anyway, it probably wouldn't make that big a difference.

The way things have worked out for me, in order to have Boo-arc Goku down at 50-60 million, the power jumps during the Cell arc itself would have to be smaller, I think. I already pinch things down closely enough during that part for my taste, though.

Why is that? What really big power jumps are you talking about?

If I'm trying to be a minimalist, I find that there a lot of ways to get flexible about said jumps. For example:

-As Piccolo was exhausted from his fight with 17, that Light Grenade he fired at Imperfect Cell could have been less than what he could do at full capacity (though still enough to kill or seriously wound 17).
-16 could have been slightly weaker than Imperfect Cell (but still close enough to be practically even) to account for the stamina and durability advantage.
-Semi-Cell could have briefly powered up to take down 16 and then walked around at a rested level after that (like Goku when he fought the Ginyus), thus negating the need for two levels of Semi-Cell: "Cell who one-shotted 16" and "Cell way stronger than the one that one-shotted 16".
-By the time he fought Perfect Cell, Vegeta could have lost some power (not a lot, but some, like ten percent or something) from being in SSG2 so long, as the form is supposed to be energy inefficient.
-Goku could have been showing 55% of his power to Karin instead of exactly 50%, as he only said "that just now was about half".

etc.

This is great. He did look like it:

http://view.thespectrum.net/series/drag ... 2&page=138

[ZombieVito]

Did Goku and co get any stronger between the defeat of the RRA and confronting Baba?

No statement was made so my guess is they are the same.

when did the humans also get several times stronger to get to their 22nd Budokai levels?

The time when the plot started to kick in.

What numbers do you guys have for Ten and Krillin in both the Cell and Buu arcs?

Currently going with:

Krillin
-- Cell arc: 2,800,000
-- Buu arc: 3,000,000

Tenshinhan
-- Cell arc: 2,000,000
-- Buu arc: 2,400,000

[ZombieVito]

To be fair Roshi said it was a matter of stamina not power.

Where are you getting that a BP 100 = dead by a missile?

And I agree Tao (or anyone below him) should not be close, equal or higher to 100. That honor should be for post Karin Goku.

[ZombieVito]

To be fair Roshi said it was a matter of stamina not power.

Where are you getting that a BP 100 = dead by a missile?

And I agree Tao (or anyone below him) should not be close, equal or higher to 100. That honor should be for post Karin Goku.

True, but Roshi at this point should be tremendously weaker than Goku, who can still be fazed by conventional weaponry (Pilaf's missile, the battleship's main gun comment from the guidebook, Pilaf's flamethrower, a RRA soldier's WW2-looking rocket launcher, another RRA soldier's sniper rifle). He should be around the level of the same Goku that was hurt by pistol bullets. Roshi himself could pluck bullets out of the air effortlessly, but as you said, he apparently lacked stamina, so he wouldn't have been able to keep doing that, nor would he have been able to do it to multiple people at once. Then again it does make you wonder why Goku couldn't do that when shot at by White...

When Pilaf and co shoot a missile at Goku, one about the size of Goku himself, they're confident it'll kill him. He chooses to deflect it rather than tank it, which implies to me he's still below 100. A battle power of 100 is supposed to give you destructive power equal to a battleship's main cannon, and presumably the durability to survive one of your own attacks.

EDIT: Goku also considers kicking away one of the missiles the RRA shoots at him when storming their base to be a rather close call, but that missile somehow proceeded to blow up half a mountain...

Also, more random comments on your list:

-Now that I've posted the Daizenshuu quote about Cymbal's battle power being several times less than Tambourine's (e.g. if Tambourine is 140, Cymbal is 35), are you going to change it to reflect that? Or just ignore the Daizenshuu and Piccolo here and go off his fight with Yajirobe?
-Post-energy Gero at 160 million seems a little high compared to Piccolo at 190 million, as Piccolo completely demolished Gero, and cut off his arm.
-Really, what reason is there to have Gotenks weaker than fatso after he's formed and then make a humongous gain in the ROSAT? How does the story make sense if Goku and Piccolo were screwing the Earth?
-Gap between 17 and 16 seems a bit small.

You really make good points. 100 should be the limit for RRA Goku. Time to change my BP.

[ZombieVito]

Keep in mind that there wasn't a lot of consistency in power at this time, and a lot of gag-based injuries and gag-based weapons... but some points should still stand. Some things that stick out to me on the topic of ki vs regular weaponry:

-BODB Goku is hurt a lot (but not really "damaged") by a shot to the head from Bulma's pistol (which looks like a Walter PPK).
-BODB Krillin is afraid of policemen with guns.
-BODB Goku has an axe swung by a full grown man break on his head with just a small bruise to show for it.
-RRA Goku is hurt by several shots from White's revolver, but not damaged.
-RRA Goku is paralyzed by Blue. Blue prepares to finish him off with a shotgun blast. Though since he was paralyzed, he probably couldn't use his ki to defend himself, like what happened when Guldo paralyzed Gohan and Krillin.
-RRA Roshi states he couldn't have taken the RRA base by himself, and is awed when Goku did.
-RRA Roshi knocked out several RRA soldiers quickly before they could react. One of them does react, by firing at him with a Sten, but Roshi catches all of the bullets before they can hit him (implying he's still faster/stronger than Goku?).
-RRA Roshi, Goku, and Krillin were apparently going to get killed when Blue tied them up and planted a bomb next to them.
-Post-Karin Goku has to kick back a grenade that Tao threw at him while he was off guard, which seriously injures a weakened Tao (though it could be some pseudo-sci-fi grenade).
-Post-Karin Goku bothers to dodge autocannon and machine gun fire.
-Post-Karin Goku gets shot in the face with a sniper rifle, and while it doesn't damage him, it still moves his head, and causes him to rub the spot that was hit and say "ow".
-Post-Karin Goku gets shot with a WW2-esque rocket launcher. He takes it with minor damage; he gets some scuffs and bruises, torn clothes, and it apparently hurt a lot because he's really pissed off afterward, but nothing else.
-Post-Karin Goku bothered to deflect Pilaf's missile rather than tanking it.
-A battle power of 100 is equivalent to the power of a battleship's main gun.
-A battle power of 260 is equivalent to a small nuclear bomb.

Post-Karin Goku being below 100 would also leave more room to fit in Chapa, who is apparently superior to post-Karin Goku, but way weaker than Tambourine, who himself is way weaker than 22nd Budokai Goku.

Did 22nd Budokai Krillin and Yamcha surpassed RRA Goku? What do you think?

[ZombieVito]

Did 22nd Budokai Krillin and Yamcha surpassed RRA Goku? What do you think?

Most likely they did. Roshi went from whatever number he was at in the RRA arc to 139 at the 22nd Budokai. I imagine Yamcha and Krillin made similar leaps. And, well, the story does treat them as somewhat relevant; Roshi is shocked that someone could be so strong that they could easily defeat Yamcha, and almost immediately after is shocked that someone is strong enough to kill Krillin, and considers Goku an idiot for going after that person at less than full power. Maybe they didn't surpass him by much, though, which leads me to my next point:

Do you think Chapa should be stronger than them? They both seemed to think Goku was in for the fight of his life with that guy, and I don't recall anything being stated about how they stacked up to him. Were they confident they could match or beat Goku? Because otherwise, their statements that Chapa could match or almost match Goku would basically be stating Chapa > them. Perhaps that doesn't mean much, and they were indeed confident they'd surpassed Goku by now (though I find it unlikely). Roshi was one of the guys that stated Chapa should be a challenge, and he must have been stronger than him. But Krillin and Yamcha... I'm not sure.

I honestly don't know. I guess making him a rival to them is fine. I guess I will settle with these BP:

21st TB Goku: 40
Tao: 60
RRA Goku: 90
22nd TB Yamcha: 100
22nd TB Krillin: 105

Chapa being at 90-95 should be good.

[ZombieVito]

Minor nitpick: RRA Goku (post-Karin) should be more like 75-80, as he was hurt by Tao's attacks.

Chapter: Chapter 92, P.7.1-6
Context: Tao Pai Pai hits Goku with his ultimate combo, but...
Tao Pai Pai: “Ha ha ha!! He’s finally dead!! When he finally realized the true fearsomeness of a professional killer, it was already too late!! Whaa?!”
*Goku's not dead*
Goku: “You’re as good as I thought. That really hurt.”

Or make Tao stronger.

[ZombieVito]

- Krillin weaker than Yamcha in 21st TB?
- No.8 That stronger?
- We almost have the same Bp for Uranai's fighters, neat.
- Roshi (21st BT) weaker than Ox-king?

[ZombieVito]

Completed my latest battle power list. The format was blatantly ripped off from from Zombie's newest list, though with some modifications (dividing characters by faction, listing heights for some of them because I wanted to, the presence of a handful of other movie characters, etc.). I just recently finished it and only read it over once, so I probably made a mistake or ten. Feedback and corrections are welcomed:

Powuh Levels

Nitpicks:

1.- Karin > 22nd TB Goku?
2.- I don't get why people have Gohan at 1 million after his zenkai boost. Wouldn't Vegeta say: "THAT KID JUST SURPASSED ME!!".
3.- Any reason why you have Muri that strong?
4.- Any reason why you have Dai Kaioshin that low? He was absorbed after all. He must have been consider of worth.
5.- Zarbon 32K when transformed!?
6.- Just figured out Goku actually got stronger after the 21st TB, Krillin confirms it while Goku is fighting Blue.
7.- Any reason why Yamu is stronger than Spopovich?

Damn you must really hate BoG to list all the movies except that one.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo is really really weak in the Cell games. Damn.

[ZombieVito]

Well, I have updated my list a bit for anyone that cares.

[ZombieVito]

How strong do you guys have SSJ Trunks and Yardrat SSJ Goku?

I've been wondering for some time their BP's. Many have them somewhat high (200 million for Goku!!) but do they really need to be that high? Gohan even mistook Trunks for Goku at one point. He's he really that far from Namek Goku?

[ZombieVito]

Any particular reason you arent using the Daizenshuu power levels? They cover up to Namek.

'Cause they are so wrong!!

150 millions for Goku SSJ in Namek?? Reakum can destroy a big piece of planet with only 45,000... then Freezer in his 3rd form can destroy the whole planet with only his arms... But well...

But they are official...

[ZombieVito]

What are your gaps between CG SSJ Goku, Cell (Not FP) and SSJ Gohan guys?

[ZombieVito]

Accurately judging Pui-Pui's battle power is tricky. On one hand, the Supreme Kai was surprised by how easily Vegeta dispatched him. On the other hand, Pui-Pui thought that fighting under 10x Earth's gravity was impressive. I personally place him roughly on the Ginyu Force's level in my head.

I agree but at least I give him a little credit and have him stronger than 3rd suppression Freeza.

[ZombieVito]

Didn't Goku say Dabura was actually stronger than Perfect Cell?

[ZombieVito]

Why ignore official BP's?

[ZombieVito]

If Roshi was 139 how strong was Grandpa Gohan?

30 at the time of his death.

Remeber Roshi had 139 after 3 years of training for the 22nd TB.

[ZombieVito]

Kibito > Piccolo.....