Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

How strong was Gohan on Namek, calm and enraged, pre and post Zenkai? We know the baseline for his power level is 200,000; but anything after this is pretty muddy. He’s definitely stronger than Vegeta when enraged, but all he does is get Freeza by surprise. Post Zenkai he (probably enraged) managed to push back 3rd form Freeza, but then Freeza just bounced it back. Both times he fight Freeza he deals 0 damage to Freeza, but still compels him to transform nonetheless.

I have these:

Freeza Arc

Son Goku: 3,000,000
-- Kaioken x10: 30,000,000
-- Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 150,000,000

Freeza [First form]: 530,000
-- Second form: 800,000
-- Power up [vs Son Gohan|Piccolo]: 950,000
-- Full power: 1,200,000
-- Third form: 1,800,000
-- Final form: 3,600,000
-- 50% of full power: 60,000,000
-- 70% of full power: 84,000,000
-- 100% full power: 120,000,000

Vegeta: 250,000
-- Zenkai boost: 2,250,000

Piccolo: 240,000
-- After assimilating Nail: 960,000
-- Without weighted clothes: 1,200,000
-- With Son Gohan and Krillin’s energy: 2,100,000

Son Gohan: 200,000
-- Enraged [vs Second form Freeza]: 750,000
-- Zenkai boost: 400,000
-- Enraged [vs Third form Freeza]: 1,600,000

Krillin: 75,000
-- Continued potential unlock boost: 150,000

[ZombieVito]

It's been a while since I've posted here, so what better way than with a power level list!! Haha.

A) Isn't Piccolo's fusion with Kami implied to be a x2 boost?
B) Dabura not SS2 tier?
C) Super Boo and Gotenks are a little too close to Goku for my liking. I feel 45 Billion should be better but that's just me.
D) Base Vegetto under SS3 Goku? I really want to hear why you think that.
E) Shouldn't Gohan in RoF be at least stronger than Piccolo? Unless you think Piccolo for whatever reason got weaker than 1 Billion.

[ZombieVito]

A. Where was it implied that it's exactly 2x (or super close to it)? Genuinely asking.

B. I'm on the "Gohan was SSJ1 against Dabura" team. Gohan struggling was more him slacking on his training than Dabura being in the same league as Super Perfect Cell.

C. I actually agree, but I'm trying to limit Gotenks so that SSJ3 Goku isn't complete cannon fodder compared to Ultimate Gohan.

D. We never see Base Vegito against Buuhan in the manga, right? Unless I'm wrong, that means Vegito's base can be as weak or as strong as you like. I just put SSJ Vegito as 10x stronger than Buuhan, so his base is 5x weaker than Buuhan in the manga.

E. Yeah, you're right. Gohan should be stronger than I listed him as. Then again, Piccolo was struggling against some random soldier haha.

A) The Grand Namek Elder said that the Nameless Namek divided is genius/power in half when he split into Piccolo and Kami. Logic tells me that if they reunite then the boost should be x2.
B) I would agree but everything else (Anime, Super manga, guides) says or implies Dabura was SS2 tier so I go with that.
C) But I only said to bump Super Boo and Gotenks. Goku is fine where he is.
D) True. The Daizenshuu does say his base power is superior to SS3 but I suppose it can be ignored if desired.
E) If you talking about Shisami then Toriyama's script actually never compares him to Zarbon or Dodoria. The script actually goes out of his way to say that Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to his army and it says Shisami is the strongest one. I see no issue with Freeza finding a soldier as strong as Piccolo duting those 4 months.

[ZombieVito]

Even the idea of a even split is wrong because old Kami was dimensions above even young Piccolo. 2x tends to be a good number, but I’m going with 1.66x right now.

Piccolo: 240
SSJ Trunks: 270
SSJ Goku: 288
SSJ Vegeta: 300
Future Androids: 310-320
Gingertown Cell: 315
Weighted Kamiccolo: 375
Android 18: 390
Android 17: 400
FP Kamiccolo: 400

Kami trained after they split. King Piccolo never did.

[ZombieVito]

That's a reasonable assumption, but it's not stated anywhere in the series. We just know Katatz Jr was training with the former Kami before the split. Piccolo also calls Kami a slacker, but that might just be about old Kami.

Doesn't really need to be stated to be honest. We know that the Nameless Namekian halved his power after splitting in two which means before that he was at 520 since King Piccolo is at 260. Now since Kami is shown to be a lot stronger than the Goku that killed King Piccolo then the only way this can happen is if Kami indeed trained in those 300 years.

[ZombieVito]

Also you forgot Master Karin...I think he should be stronger than Goku when he climbed the tower and weaker than Tao Pai Pai.

Karin is at 190. Stronger than even 22nd TB Goku lol.

[ZombieVito]

How strong do you guys think the Grand Kaiosama is?

IIRC, Kaio was extremely vocal about this guy's power or skills. As if he was really strong not just by those crappy little chubby kaios' standards, but by a guy's who has been keeping an eye on the saiyan, Namek and Cell arc.
Besides the gods, nobody else could sense his ki, so Goku being excited means nothing.

The guy knows he is not on Goku or Paikuhan's level, but could he take on Namek Freeza, for instance? or the androids? or is he barely above the kaiosamas and probably is useless by the time Vegeta died on Namek?

I don't think he can kill Namek Freeza. Shin made a big deal of the Kaioshins being able to kill Namek Freeza easily so I don't think the Grand Kai should be able to do it.

At best I think he can beat base Goku from the Cell Games.

[ZombieVito]

While I disagree with a lot of the numbers, the format is incredible Daniel. Well done.

[ZombieVito]

I'm in the middle of a Buu arc rewatch, and I wonder how strong Shin is supposed to be.

He scares Piccolo away -even though Big Green cannot sense his ki-, narratively the implication is that he is THE god, and the red herring is for us to believe this mysterious guy is super powerful when he is not, he is just important and useless.

In any case, that's up for interpretation, there's nothing absolute about that, one way or the other... however, it cannot get more absolute than Shin being unable to unearth the sword SS Gohan managed to, something no other kaioshin could do*, right?. Pre-ToP base Goku would be between Shin and SS Gohan, at the very least.
Of course, pre-Z sword SS Gohan could oneshot Freeza, probably much weaker Super Saiyans could do that, too. Shit, even Future Trunks did it.
So, how much stronger than Future Trunks would Shin need to be to live up to his hype? and who would be the weakest SS that could get the Z sword out of that stone? SS Gohan didn't struggle much, and he was already below his CG self.


*this opens another can of worms, how come the buff Kaioshin couldn't do it? Grand Kaioshin not doing it makes sense, maybe he knew who put it there and left it alone. I guess the only two kaioshin that were stronger than SS Gohan back then, never tried it, while the rest of them did.

---
What about Dabura and Cell? Vegeta claims Buu's power - after being released and kicking Dabura into a mountain- is below theirs, meaning Initial Fat Buu is weaker than their SS2. Where can we fit SS2 Kid Gohan, then? on par with Initial Fat Buu? Weaker? after all, they both disposed easily of a Cell tier character.
Fat Buu plays SS2 CG Gohan's part, and Dabura as Perfect Cell (rather than as SPC). Unless, the gap between SS2 Kid Gohan and Vegeta is big enough to fit Fat Buu there.

Shin is way stronger than Piccolo but weaker than SS Teen Gohan so I say he's at CG SS Goku level. Maybe a bit higher.

[ZombieVito]

Admittedly, No.18 isn't quite as strong as No.17, and by extension Piccolo, but I doubt the power difference would be enough to change the outcome, especially considering that Piccolo, unlike No.18, doesn't have infinite stamina.

That got me with something: I remember Future Trunks saying that future androids were more stronger than their present counterparts.

But by how much do you guys have this gap between them? Also do you believe Cell would be stronger if he had the chance to absorb the future androids, but still would be no match for SSJ2 Gohan?

You got it backwards. Present > Future.

[ZombieVito]

If anything Broly proved that the multipliers are the same. Both Ikari Broly and base Gogeta seem to be SSB level and they both are on par when they turn Super Saiyan.

[ZombieVito]

If anything Broly proved that the multipliers are the same. Both Ikari Broly and base Gogeta seem to be SSB level and they both are on par when they turn Super Saiyan.

Goku and Vegeta were running for their lives and collapsed into base just from that effort. Meanwhile Gogeta danced around Broly’s blasts as a warm up.

I agree Toriyama might have a more simplistic approach to the SS forms, at least. Lately, I've been more inclined to believe Toriyama with SS1 represents the full scope of all SS forms, now. Applicable only to his own movie continuity.

-So SS Goku can trade blows or avoid death against a god level Broly, something I could only see SS3 Goku doing, if at all.
-Vegeta can use SS to fight a base Broly that keeps getting stronger and will end up being an Ozaru boost away from SSG.
-SS Gogeta has the edge the entire fight while Broly manages to keep up here and there to the point they break into another dimension, then Gogeta regains the edge and makes Broly go berserk and even then he can still hang in there for a sec. I also believe Broly got stronger while fighting SS Gogeta, forcing him into tapping into more power (SS2, SS3 maybe) only to stay ahead, until the green form made SSB be mandatory.

So, while nothing points towards this take directly, and it is "supported" only by an old interview that probably not even AT remembers giving, I'd like to think Movie SS Goku can tap into SS3's power without turning into SS3. It's not directly contradicted either(yet), so it's perfectly headcanon material for now.

That’s definitely something worth thinking about. I think SSJ3 was mostly just dumped for it’s stamina issues though, and SSJ2 is too small of a boost to even matter.

Goku and Vegeta already fought Broly and weren't at 100%, especially Goku.

Gogeta was.

[ZombieVito]

You guys have a multiplier for UI? If so how much would you compare to SSJB?

Depends on where do you have SSB Gogeta in comparison to UI Goku.

If Gogeta is equal to UI Goku then UI has a multiplier of SSB X SSB.

[ZombieVito]

Nah, there's no way UI is equal to SSG Fusion or SSB Fusion. If Goku and Vegeta became SSB Gogeta in the ToP then Jiren even at his Super Full Power state would have been beaten in under a minute.

UI Sign (After the Kefla fight) is already stronger than SSB Vegetto from the FT arc so who fucking knows where would SSB Gogeta from the Broly movie would place.

[ZombieVito]

Goku and Vegeta have gotten stronger from the Zamasu Arc, in fact Vegeta went into the time chamber again while Goku trained in the gravity chamber with Whis. Take the same Goku and Vegeta and copy paste. Have one set fuse into Vegito or Gogeta SSB and have one Goku go UI. That SSB Fusion is going to fold UI Goku easily. The ONLY reason he would last longer than few seconds is the auto dodge keeping him alive until the fusion realizes all the have to do is attack faster which is how Jiren got past UI's auto dodge in the ToP. I think at best UI would MAYBE be SSG Fusion level and that's being generous.

Here's the thing though:

SSB Gogeta's battle power is SSB X SSB. Even low balling the SSB multiplier the gap between SSB Goku and SSB Gogeta is 2.5 Billion using 50,000 as a multiplier for SSB.

Broly has official material saying he was equal to Gogeta in power and only lost because of losing his mind + Gogeta's skill and to be honest I agree since Broly lasted a lot of time against him.

Jiren is weaker than Broly but not by much and UI Goku was not that much stronger than Jiren.

The problem here is that in Super Hero Vegeta says that Jiren wasn't that much stronger than them. Meaning that the multiplier for UI shouldn't be THAT much since SSBE [Which is 20 times SSB] isn't that much weaker than Jiren but Gogeta suggests that the gap is quite enormous so I have no idea how to explain this.

[ZombieVito]

As opposed to Bardock — the real version from the TV special of course rocks his "almost 10,000" power level, but even the newer and wussier version from Minus/Super was still said to be in the upper ranks of the larger low-class tier.

Why is he wussier? Because he's not a complete piece of shit like the non canon version of Bardock?

[ZombieVito]

I believe the main problem of the last page discussion (SSJB Fusion vs. UI) is that SSJ Gogeta should be enough to deal with Broly, having him turning into SSJB just for the hype overblows the whole power scale and make Broly seem like a larger titan than he already is.

I remember reading somewhere that according to the novelization that Gogeta could've handled Broli in base or SS1, but went all the way to Blue just to flex, but I haven't been able to cofirm it for myself.

Wouldn't that contradict the movie? Broly is definitely shown to have the advantage against SS Gogeta once he goes Green.

[ZombieVito]

I gave the translations a check and that's not said anywhere. Most of Gogeta vs Broly was just describing the fight. Gogeta definitely thought Broly was quite dangerous for him to try to kill the guy. Or maybe he was just in a hurry after he saw Freeza's goons summoned Freeza, but the extended beatdown Broly handled shows he's not a guy Gogeta could've taken lightly. Gogeta was running circles around SSJFP Broly, but it seemed like he needed full power to do so.



So... A few months ago I did a list that used 4th Grade/Full Power SSJ = 125x Base. I quite liked my numbers there, but this whole MSSJ stuff feels like cheating, you know? Just an obscure reference in the Cell Saga and some sparse guidebooks acknowleding it... So I decided to try the 50x again, set Boo Saga Base Goku = 100 million, and try to work backwards from it.

So the solution was tighten up the mid to late Cell Saga numbers. I'd rather have big differences whenever Cell tanks someone, but it is what it is. If all those "many times stronger" from OG DB fit between 5 and 400ish, then this stuff oughta fit as well.

Spoiler:

Goku returns

Cyborg Freeza: 150
King Cold: 80

SSJ Trunks: 190
SSJ Goku: 200

Androids Saga

SSJ Goku: 300
~ Sick: 225

SSJ Vegeta: 315
SSJ Trunks: 280
Piccolo: 250

Android 19: 160
~ Post absorptions: 240

Android 20: 180
~ Post absorptions: 200

Android 18: 384
Android 17: 400

Cell Saga

Piccolo (Merged with Kami): 375
~ Full power: 400

Imperfect Cell: 330
~ Post absorptions: 600

Android 16: 600

Semi Cell: 800
~ Full power: 960

SSJ Vegeta: 840
~ 2nd Grade: 1,260

SSJ Trunks: 800
~ 2nd Grade: 1,200
~ 3rd Grade: 2,000

Perfect Cell: 1,680

SSJ Goku (50%): 1,500

Cell Games

SSJ Goku: 3,000
Cell (Vs Goku): 3,500

SSJ Gohan: 4,000
Cell (Vs Gohan): 4,200

Cell Jrs.: 2,100
SSJ Vegeta: 2,100
SSJ Trunks: 2,000
Piccolo: 1,500

SSJ Gohan (Enraged): 4,500
~ SSJ2: 9,000

Cell (Full power): 6,300
~ Post self destruction: 8,400

Boo Saga

SSJ Gohan: 3,200
~ SSJ2: 6,400

SSJ Goten: 2,400
SSJ Trunks: 2,500

SSJ Vegeta: 6,400
~ SSJ2: 8,000
~ Majin: 10,000

SSJ Goku: 5,000
~ SSJ2: 10,000
~ SSJ3: 40,000

Dabra: 6,300

Fat Boo: 30,000

50% Goku being so close to Super Vegeta feels weird, but I like how the CG-Boo Saga portion ended up. Didn't include the Gotenks/Gohan/Super Boo stuff since it's a whole other game.

Outside of not giving Piccolo's implied 2 times boost for fusing with god, I like it but I guess you don't have Goku doing big gains in between Boo and BoG right?

I don't think 50% Goku should be way stronger than SSG2 Vegeta so where you have them seems good to me. Where do you have Piccolo in the Boo arc?

P.S. SS Vegeta at 6,400?

[ZombieVito]

Back when BoGs was coming out, AT did some interviews saying he felt Goku and co. peaked around the time of the Boo Saga, so I'm fine with freezing the status quo. Maybe he's 1.05x stronger, but that's probably getting too close to 100% Freeza.

If Piccolo's already half as strong as CG Goku then he's probably just a tiny bit stronger in the Boo Saga. Shin (Who's dimensions above Piccolo) was the weakest Kaioshin, which means there were guys stronger than him that couldn't even budge the Z Sword. So Piccolo is a lot weaker than Kaioshin who's a lot weaker than SSJ1 Gohan. Maybe Piccolo is a 1800 to Shin's 2400?

It's probably going to be more fleshed out when I turn this into one of those fancy google docs. I'm also gonna do the Super Manga since the Anime is dead, but I need to figure out all that UI multiplier and Gogeta vs Broly stuff first.

Interesting. Maybe I need to revisit some stuff.

Going from 1500 to 1800 seems small when you consider he's the only character besides Goku and Vegeta that is stated by AT to always train.

Shame you are not doing the anime. Gogeta is really a ball buster. You either have him hundreds of times stronger than UI Goku or you use lower transformation multipliers for fusions. I do like what Prince from Neoseeker did though. Maybe I'll use that but I'll wait to see if Toei adapts the movie in a possible Super anime continuation.

[ZombieVito]

Interesting. Maybe I need to revisit some stuff.

Going from 1500 to 1800 seems small when you consider he's the only character besides Goku and Vegeta that is stated by AT to always train.

Shame you are not doing the anime. Gogeta is really a ball buster. You either have him hundreds of times stronger than UI Goku or you use lower transformation multipliers for fusions. I do like what Prince from Neoseeker did though. Maybe I'll use that but I'll wait to see if Toei adapts the movie in a possible Super anime continuation.

Goku and Vegeta didn't even get 2x stronger in those 7 years, so I'm fine with Piccolo not doing much. Everybody plateau'd around this time and Piccolo doesn't even fight here anyway. I think if he felt he could've made big improvements he would've spent another year in the Rosat.

I've kinda given up on the anime coming back, but scaling it is more fun. I'm kinda leaning towards Prince's idea (and his format; I did a list like his once but stopped around the Cell Saga), it's basically just the two-base theory but it's more fleshed out than giving fusions smaller boosts for the sake of it. It's not until Super that fusion starts to get inconsistent anyway, so might as well blame God Ki for it.

I still have the slim hope that Toei makes Gogeta go SSB right away in an adaptation.