Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Then Blue Evolution would be something around 70 times SSJG? (To be on pair with SSJB+KK)

SSBE is equal to SSB Kaioken x20 so it would be 1,000 times SSG.

[ZombieVito]

So, I saw some very good reasons for why SSJ3 Gotenks maybe isn't that much stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and thought I'd toy with the numbers a bit to see how I'd make it work.

SSJ Goten - 1,200
SSJ Trunks - 1,250

Had to nerf them a bit so Gotenks can properly be "many times stronger" than them. They don't really have to be up there with Gohan and Vegeta to impress them, and Super heavily implies Gohan and Piccolo > SSJ Boys in RoF anyway. Here they're around Super Vegeta.

SSJ/2/3 Goku - 4,500/9,000/36,000

Fat Boo - 30,000

Both are the basis for comparison with Gotenks. Taken directly from my list. Fat Boo has to be this strong because I don't want to complicate how strong Good/Mr Boo is.

Gotenks (Pre Rosat) - 144
- SSJ - 7,200

Basically, Goku admits Gotenks is a gamble even after solving the time issue (He makes Boo promise to wait and mentions they can use the DBs). Piccolo's calm reaction to Gotenks is very suspicious if he's indeed SSJ3 level, why'd he want to test Gotenks if he's alright? The anime also explains Chi-Chi and Bulma made the boys rest before training more, but as we see in the manga Boo arrived too early.
At the end of the day, this is a saga Toriyama admited he was writting by the seat of his pants, so even though Gotenks was planned to be that strong and save the day initially, there was clearly a change of plans on AT's part when he made Boo transform.

Super Boo - 80,000

Certainly stronger than Fat Boo, but this transformation isn't nearly as dramatic as 4th form Freeza or Perfect Cell.

Gotenks (Post Rosat) - 200
- SSJ/2/3 - 10,000/20,000/80,000

Surpassed "Vegeta and the others" here according to Daizenshuu 7. I guess one could argue Gotenks only surpassed Vegeta with SSJ2 and 3, but I just like these numbers here more.

Ultimate Gohan - 120,000

He's 1,000x stronger than Post Z Sword Base Gohan. I think that's neat.

Gotenks-Boo - 160,000
Gohan-Boo - 200,000

Vegetto - 45,000
- SSJ - 2,250,000

Stronger than SSJ3 Goku in base, according to Daizenshuu 7.

And then in Battle of Gods SSJ3 Goku, SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan are all at 100 in base and 40,000 in SSJ3/Ultimate. I think that's the best way of mixing Goku being left in the dust in the Boo Saga but fully catching up by the start of Super.

So you went back to having normal SS multipliers for fusions? Neat.

I still would argue that Super Boo can't be twice as strong as Goku since Buff Boo = Kid Boo + South Kaioshin. Using your numbers, Buff Boo would be at best 66,000 IMO.

[ZombieVito]

I’m not sure. Just think that if Gotenks doesn’t have to be anything special, then there’s no reason to sugarcoat things here. But in DBS, it’s another matter…

They work just fine with Kefla, and Gogeta being 1,000x stronger than Broly isn’t wrong, just weird. The only problem is Gogeta being so much stronger than Vegetto after just a couple sagas. Maybe Vegetto had Mr Satan’s stomach aches.

We don’t know how South Kaioshin vs Kid Boo played out, and Moro Saga made absorptions weird anyway.

Well, I just assume since Goku and Vegeta weren't equals in EP66 then Vegetto got a smaller boost. Not to mention that in the ToP they grew multiple times stronger and both of them unlocked new forms. That most likely boosted Gogeta even further than FT arc Vegetto.

The anime filler seems fine to me. South Kaioshin gave Kid Boo a good fight but eventually lost and got absorbed. His absorption was also never noted to be any different, (Only Grand Kaioshin's was) so I see no reason to not treat it as an addition like the rest were.

[ZombieVito]

Not as big as Caulifla and Kale, or even Boo Saga Goku and Vegeta if we’re counting transformations. And counting transformations is messy because I think we both agree Base Gogeta isn’t >>> KKx20 or SSJBE.

Both South and Dai affected Boo’s body in a way no one else did. It’s also theorized South was the basis for Super Boo’s mind, but this part is pretty confusing.

I actually started to think Kefla wasn't as strong initially. Her SS form seemed to match SSB Goku at first and then she got stronger by adapting to Goku. What I mean about transformations is that Gogeta's potential is greater because of them so his base is stronger that what it could have been if they fused in the FT arc.

You mean because of Buff Boo not getting South Kaioshin's clothes?

[ZombieVito]

Goku fights her without Kaio-Ken for quite a while right? That's pretty impressive. I think my anime list does take that into account, but I don't remember the exact details of the fight. I'm due for a rewatch of it.

No, it's the mere fact he became Buff Boo. He changed Boo's physiognomy in a way nobody else does, except for Dai.

Vados even wonders if SS Kefla should be careful fighting SSB Goku making Champa bring up Goku's stamina again. I think it's clear Kefla evolves during the fight.

That's actually true. I might have to think about this more.

[ZombieVito]

Damn, no one commented... Pity. Seems like the power levels community is already dead.

Well, I don't want to be rude but Z power levels are not that interesting commenting about anymore.

Do a Super list and I will gladly comment.

[ZombieVito]

So this completely passed me by but we got another official power level for Raditz on an info card for DBS Broly.



It's 1600 now.

[ZombieVito]

That number is contradictory with the manga...
If you make Raditz this strong then he isn't comparable to Saibaimen, which is the whole point of the number! To give perspective of the new villains and hype up them up as threats.

It's why I ignore "official" numbers like those, clearly whoever made this is a random person.
I really doubt Toriyama felt the urge to correct this random digit, with absolutely null consequences; unless you're a Raditz fan.

How is the number contradictory to the manga if it never gave a number to him?

[ZombieVito]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

3rd form Freeza.

[ZombieVito]

Right now I think Kuririn and Tien could beat true form Freeza if he’s in a slow % of his power. Yamcha ties with 3rd form Freeza so he beats Nailccolo. Chaozu can fight evenly with 1st form Freeza and maybe win with telekinesis.

Kuririn: 7,500,000
Tenshinhan: 5,000,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 500,000

Oh, you changed your mind about them being weak. Nice.

[ZombieVito]

Random ass question:

Is there any indication that anyone in the 22nd Budokai arc besides the two finalists and Roshi have surpassed Tao Paipai? Knowing that Tao was about on par with (but slightly inferior to) end-of-arc RRA Goku. I'd think Crane Hermit (power level of 120 given in Weekly Jump) and 22nd Budokai Roshi (power level of 139 given in Daizenshuu 7) are both supposed to be stronger than him, because the former's his older brother and the latter easily beats the former, but there's no confirmation. Previously I'd thought that Krillin and Yamcha thinking they might have a chance against Goku indicated they were at least as strong as Tao Paipai themselves, if not stronger, and by extension that Chappa was too (since they thought he'd be a tough fight for Goku)... but thinking about it, they've literally never met, fought, or sensed Tao Paipai. So how would they know how strong he was?

I think Tao would still be a huge deal in this arc. Not enough to seriously trouble Goku, Tenshinhan, or Roshi of course, but probably stronger than everyone else in the ring and enough to make them fight at their actual strength rather than "match level." Crane Hermit has this to say when watching Goku easily hand Krillin his ass. Specifically, this is right after Goku does a rush attack so quick that Krillin can't even see Goku dancing around him, before he knocks Krillin out of the ring with one hit:

Chapter: 127, P13.1-2
Tsuru-sennin: “H-he’s outrageous…He just might be good enough to have defeated Tao Pai Pai…”
Kame-sennin: “Goku gets bigger and bigger each time I see him…I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished…”

If "stomps out Krillin like he's trash" is still only "maybe he can defeat Tao" territory, that's a pretty direct indication that Tao is stronger than Krillin. Who himself is stronger than Yamcha and Chaozu. This goes double if the Crane Hermit was accounting for the fact that Goku had more power in reserve than he was showing here, which I think would be a reasonable assumption for him to make considering how visibly easy Goku was taking it on Krillin (even doing a silly face to taunt him right before knocking him out).

On that note, the next arc. Except for Goku and Piccolo, none of the characters in the Piccolo Daimao arc change in power at all. Goku and Piccolo are clearly in a different dimension than anything that came before. Old Piccolo is "can easily face-tank Goku's strongest attack while outputting less than half his power, then becomes many times more powerful, then powers up to an unspecified degree after that" tier, and post-water Goku is his equal.

Chapter: 143, P14.2-5
Context: said when Goku hits him with the Kamehameha
Goku: “Heheh! He took that head-on!”
*Piccolo is unharmed*
Piccolo: “Did you do something just now?”

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

Chapter: 144, P9.2-3
Pilaf: “Um, hey…So if he regains his youth, he’ll be even more amazing…?”
Piano: “Naturally. So much so that there’ll be no comparison [to how he is now].”

Chapter: 156, P11.1-6
Piccolo: “Oh, I’m impressed that you noticed. But then, you would. My life span shortens when I fight at full power…I didn’t want to use it if at all possible, but…it seems I have no choice…”

Drum is "moderately above 22nd Budokai Goku/Tenshinhan" tier. He beats Ten in a fistfight but Ten can still tag him and draw blood when he lands a hit. But of course Drum is nothing compared to his dad or Goku as a holding-back basically explodes his head with one kick.

Chapter: 155, P2.2
Context: said after he kills Drum
Tenshinhan: “One hit…just one hit…What’s happened?...He’s not the same Son he was before…! He shouldn’t have had such stupendous destructive power…!”

So, where does that leave Tambourine? Is there any indication that he's stronger than Tao? He beats up Goku but that's explicitly attributed to Goku being low on energy after his long fight with Tenshinhan, and after Goku has a rest and a meal he disintegrates Tambourine effortlessly. As far as I can tell Tambourine's best feat is just killing Krillin, right? Then killing a bunch of 21st/22nd Budokai contestants who should be weaker than Krillin. But Crane Hermit indicates that Tao could've done the same thing. And of course Cymbal's way weaker than Tambourine, but can still put up a fight against Yajirobe...

Chapter: 135, P4.1
Context: after Goku runs off to fight Tambourine
Kame-sennin: “That idiot! This is someone good enough to defeat Kuririn…Goku’s used up all his power in the tournament; he shouldn’t have any chance of winning…!”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

Chapter: 140, P10.6
Piccolo: “Immediately go and take care of whoever killed Cymbal! You’re many times stronger than Cymbal, but don’t get caught off guard. We don’t know the nature of this enemy…”

EDIT: also when Goku claims to have beaten Tao Paipai, Tenshinhan is in utterly disbelief. He only comes around to thinking of it as plausible after the aforementioned match against Krillin (he says Goku must be lying or that he got lucky). Note that this is after Ten's tossed Yamcha aside like trash, so he has a pretty good idea of the "level" Roshi's students should be on before he hears this, and still considers Tao well above that. If Roshi has any idea how strong Tao is, his shocked reaction to Goku's statement would also indicate that Tao was way above the competition at this point (like Yamcha and Chappa)... and, taken with the above statement of "I get the feeling that my position’s already vanished", could imply that Roshi doesn't believe himself capable of the same feat.

Chapter: 120, P11.1-2
Context: Goku revealed that he defeated Taopaipai. Tenshinhan did not believe it.
Jackie Chun: “Did you really…take down Taopaipai…?”
Goku: “Huh? You too, gramps? I did so! It wasn’t easy, though…him being so strong and all.”
Jackie Chun: “Taopaipai…said to be the world’s Number One assassin…and this lad…he…he…”

Yeah, the way people talk about Tao at the 22nd TB always made me think he was very strong. If his brother is at 120 then I can't see Tao any lower than 100. I personally like him at 110.

Tambourine I have at 140. Strong enough to be a threat (He did kill King Chappa after all) but not enough to beat Tenshinhan and Goku.

P.S. Nice to see you back BTW!

[ZombieVito]

How strong would Krilin be if he had saiyan biology? not Goku's drive to become stronger and stronger and fight everybody, just a power boost after recovering from serious injuries.

We know he used to get owned pretty often, so if those beatings had a zenkai boost attached to them, how strong would he have gotten in each arc? I'm certain he'd be key vs Raditz, Goku probably wouldn't die, etc.
Could he be a decent contender vs Nappa? could Vegeta survive Gohan and Krilin on Earth? (no ohzaru for Krilin, though)
What about on Namek? or even vs the androids? would that make any difference?
When would he unlock SS if he had saiyan DNA?

How strong would he be by now, as of SH?

Probably stronger than SS Goten and Trunks by a wide margin.

[ZombieVito]

Goku/Vegeta (Post training): 1,000,000
~ SSJG: 25,000,000
~ SSJB: 50,000,000

(Vegeta training in the Rosat is canon, so Goku must also have powered up from the Mafuba training somehow. SSJG added here because the bursts thing may have happened (and this was SSJG Vegeta's debut), though PSSJB doesn't exist in Toriyama's mind.)

Vegetto: 75,000,000
~ SSJB: 3,750,000,000

(Not in the original plan, but it ended up on both versions so it's canon. Manga made way more sense with the future scaling by having Vegetto curbstomp Zamasu.)

1) Or he got a rage boost that was permanent like the anime.
2) How does it make more sense? The anime had a very valid reason why Zamasu matched Vegetto.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah, something that I just realized is that in DBS the rage boosts seem to indeed be permanent..

Yeah, Goku, Vegeta, Future Trunks and Goku Black all kept their rage boosts.

Maybe Gohan didn't because he was a kid.

[ZombieVito]

1) Or he got a rage boost that was permanent like the anime.
2) How does it make more sense? The anime had a very valid reason why Zamasu matched Vegetto.

1) The overall idea is that he got in the Rosat, trained and came out stronger. Saying rage was his fuel is just a secondary thing.
2) If Gogeta is above Beerus, then the same should apply to Vegetto unless Goku and Vegeta became stronger (Which is the case in the anime, but probably not what AT envisioned).

Yeah, something that I just realized is that in DBS the rage boosts seem to indeed be permanent..

I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that. Black was basically getting Zenkais, and Vegeta's speech sounds like he used his anger as motivation while training.

I feel like an explanation is warranted for this one.

Frost feels he needs poison to beat Piccolo easily, no need to expose himself if he could just one shot him. I think this one is pretty standard.

I'm talking about Goku. Vegeta obviously got stronger by going to the RoSaT.
I don't think anyone has surpassed Beerus yet. Not even SSB Gogeta.

Goku Black's last power up was indeed fueled by rage. He says so himself.

Yeah, Frost needed to cheat to beat Piccolo in both mediums so that sure is a Toriyama story beat. Anime made way more sense thanks to the Makankosappo punching way above it's weight.

[ZombieVito]

You mean when he fires that big Kamehameha on Zamasu? Nah. I don't think Toriyama was counting on these asspull moments when he said Goku and Vegeta could handle Zamasu together.

Really? What about Jiren and Broly being said to be stronger than him?

No. I mean the rage boost he gets in episode 61. After they return to the future in episode 63, Goku wants to fight Black again so my only explanation is that he retained the rage boost.

This never happened? Jiren was only said to be stronger than Belmond and Broly was said to maybe be stronger than Beerus but that's obviously not possible with the later arcs.

[ZombieVito]

Goku always wants to fight. I don’t think that means anything.

But that’s in the manga. In the anime Whis says Belmond > Beerus and there’s no later arcs to contradict that.

He didn't want to fight Super Boo.

But Beerus refutes that immediately.

[ZombieVito]

What's the evidence for Supreme Kai being weaker than the base saiyans?

Piccolo saying Shin was stronger than him.

[ZombieVito]

I remembered Goku getting impressed when Shin says all Kaioshins could kill Freeza in one blow but even Vegeta gets a reaction?

Logic tells me that they wouldn't be impressed by this if they could do that easily, which tells me that Freeza is indeed stronger than them in base.

Thoughts?

[ZombieVito]

Kaioshin says he thinks Goku is stronger than himself when they meet, and pretty much says he can’t beat Babidi and co. without him. This is before Dabra even shows up.

I don’t think Pui Pui has to be stronger than Kaioshin since Kaioshin didn’t even know who he was. Pui Pui is probably stronger, but there’s enough room to argue the opposite.

Now Yakon, he’s definitely stronger than Kaioshin. Shin recognizes him by name and thinks he’s a real threat. Even the Daizenshuu 7 reckons Shin is “afraid”, not just “careful”.

Modern Toriyama couldn’t even remember the series’ name, and DBS tend to flip flop on the matter (RoF seems to suggest Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo), so it goes nowhere. Doesn’t make sense to use DBS as definitive evidence if you’re dismissive of everything after BoG.

But Yakon was on par with base Goku... Shin was confirmed to be superior to Piccolo.