Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The bits with Gohan in Resurrection F are all kinds of weird. Piccolo is somehow struggling against someone said to be Zarbon-level, and Gohan steps in to save him, but still has to go Super Saiyan to do it. Toriyama's script, meanwhile, doesn't say anything beyond just "Gohan is strongest" as I recall. So unless there's something big I'm forgetting, it hardly seems to have any bearing on Beerus' line from the prior movie.

Shisami is not compared to them in the script. He's not even there. He's first mentioned at the army fight.

People are taking the Gohan is the strongest line as meaning base Gohan since it's describing the army fight but I don't buy it. Gohan already said he can turn Super Saiyan and as other pointed out, he still transformed to beat Shisami.

Then we have the anime version where Piccolo still chooses to fight Tagoma after he almost killed base Gohan and where Ginyu calls base Gohan's power puny.

[ZombieVito]

The phrase “Gohan is the strongest” isn’t directly in it because it’s not a piece of dialogue, it’s a cue from Toriyama to the animators. Gohan gets the most screentime in the movie, and Freeza even highlights Gohan as someone who could wipe the entire army at once.

But we are shown base Gohan can't do that.

[ZombieVito]

But we are shown base Gohan can't do that.

That he can’t wipe out the whole army? When?

When he needed Super Saiyan to beat Shisami, a member of Freeza's army.

[ZombieVito]

I think Piccolo is only considered strong at the Cell Games because people want him to be. He has 0 feats other than an off-screen fight that wasn't going his way.

Vegeta and Trunks weren't doing so hot either. The Cell Juniors they were fighting weren't even damaged. That cover art that shows all 3 of them still standing with similar damage is proof enough for me that Piccolo wasn't THAT far off of Vegeta and Trunks.

If I had to give a number, Piccolo would be at 70-75% of them. Enough for RoF arc Piccolo to be stronger than Goten and Trunks as confirmed in the U6 arc after a decade of training.

[ZombieVito]

Then go back and read the chapter again. The only reason Goku transformed into Super Saiyan was to provide light, and upon learning Yakon feeds on it, he just gave that. And considering all of Goku's moves were in base form (two dodges and a kick), yeah... I think he could have defeated Yakon in base form just fine.

Gohan didn't think so.

Chapter: 451 (DBZ 257), P6.5
Context: after Yakon eats Goku’s Super Saiyan light
Gohan: “Father, I’ll fight too! If there’s two of us, then we’ll be able to win without becoming Super Saiyans!”

[ZombieVito]

Pretty sure Gohan thinks so.



Gohan's line has nothing to do with power level, he just didn't want Goku's energy to be eaten. As you said, he says that after learning Yakon eats energy.

That quote is when Gohan thought Goku could use Super Saiyan. When he couldn't then he offers to help. Pretty straight forward.

[ZombieVito]

I wouldn't call catching Tagoma off guard as fighting him decently.

[ZombieVito]

So you think the only reason Gohan did well against a stronger Tagoma is because he caught him off guard and that Base Gohan doesn't actually outperform Piccolo?

He did well?

Hmm. I'll have to rewatch this whole segment. But what about the sparring later? Didn't Piccolo Vs Gohan suggest they were on par with each other later?

Piccolo was training Gohan from the basics, so he wasn’t being serious about it. Gohan gets it when Goku picks up Piccolo as the 5th fighter on his place. But when the stakes are high Piccolo humbles Gohan in almost all his forms.

I was rewatching this episode yesterday and something caught my eye. Gohan is never surprised Piccolo is beating him while he's transformed into a Super Saiyan. It's only when he transforms into a Super Saiyan 2 and Piccolo grabs him that he comments about Piccolo's strength in amazement.

If Piccolo was weaker than base Gohan just months ago, why isn't he surprised when Super Saiyan isn't cutting it against him?

[ZombieVito]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku:
-- Super Saiyan:
Future Trunks:
-- Super Saiyan:
Freeza [Mecha]:
King Cold:
Vegeta:
Piccolo:
Son Gohan:
Krillin:
Tenshinhan:
Yamcha:
Chiaotzu:

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

[ZombieVito]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku: 3,7M
-- Super Saiyan: 185M
Future Trunks: 3,5M
-- Super Saiyan: 175M
Freeza [Mecha]: 150M (Gohan says he is stronger than before, right? but not strong enough to come alone)
King Cold: 90-160M (They say he is stronger than his son, but he never even attempts to fight Trunks. He could also be stronger than a suppressed Mecha Freeza but weaker than his FP, or a coward)
Vegeta: 3M (the implication is that without Goku nobody can stand up to him)
Piccolo: 2,5M (peaked at almost 2M on Namek)
Son Gohan: 1M (had bursts on Namek over the 1M mark)
Krillin: 100k (was said to be 75k on Namek, although, kinda low considering he didn't immediately die after being ran over a by +1M Freeza)
Tenshinhan: 60k (enough to beat Jeese and Burta)
Yamcha: 50k (enough to beat Recoome)
Chiaotzu: 10k (enough to beat Gurdo)

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

Glad someone else uses the Ginyu filler. It's one of the few that's really good but didn't Tenshinhan split in 2 and was still beating Jeice and Burter? That would make him at least 90,000.

[ZombieVito]

I'm looking for opinions on this so how strong would you have these guys on the Mecha Freeza arc?

Son Goku:
-- Super Saiyan:
Future Trunks:
-- Super Saiyan:
Freeza [Mecha]:
King Cold:
Vegeta:
Piccolo:
Son Gohan:
Krillin:
Tenshinhan:
Yamcha:
Chiaotzu:

P.S. Using the official power levels (150 million for Namek SS Goku and 120 million for Freeza) as a basis of course.

I'm going to kind of hijack this but I think, at least now, Toriyama clearly thinks of the humans (and Gohan and Piccolo, sometimes) as super fucking weak. I was reviewing the only fight they ever get post-Freeza, the one in Resurrection F, and...

Krillin (strongest Earthling) is scared of five Freeza soldiers. He nervously jerks around to dodge their attacks. He credits Gohan with saving his life when he throws him out of the way of a Freeza soldier's attack. He runs out of energy by the end of the fight, dispatching these Freeza soldiers. These soldiers are explicitly weaklings compared to the old ones, who themselves are on average weaker than Raditz. Jaco, who is so pathetically weak that he doesn't fancy his chances against the average prepubescent Saiyan, can still beat them easily. They KO themselves by slamming into rocks (softly enough not to break the rocks). They can't lift Piccolo's cape, which itself doesn't, like, create a crater when it falls on the floor. They get killed by the dozen by the local wildlife of Earth.

If you asked Toriyama I honestly think he'd favor Piccolo Daimao against any human character right now. Call it a retcon, assume they got weaker, whatever. I don't see any other reasonable conclusion based on their showings. In the manga Super Hero arc we also have stuff like Krillin being unable to out juke a tiny robot bee or easily catch a speeding car, getting wounded by bullets, and resorting to his regular-ass gun to take out the bee. I doubt that bee is as fast as Captain Ginyu or whatever.

Toriyama does say in his script that Freeza's army has powerful mercenaries so Krillin must have been fighting them. Shisami is even one of them. Toei surprisingly didn't convey this very well in the film and outright makes an error having Shisami compared to Zarbon and Dodoria.

Hedo created androids who are SSB level (And UI level with Cell Max) so as funny as it is, I don't see it as impossible for the bee to be Namek Freeza level.

[ZombieVito]

Gendarmerie soldiers can't fly, so they should be weaker than Freeza's army (~1,000) and even your average Saiyan (300+).

Flight has nothing to do with BP. Roshi can't fly and he's in the millions by DBS. Videl can and she would be lucky to be in the double digits.

[ZombieVito]

Videl can and she would be lucky to be in the double digits.

I always assumed that Videl was in the triple digits, being better than her father and all? Probably not reaching 200, but definitely above 100, maybe even 150, I think she can defeat OG Roshi.

She would be lucky to beat Giran lol.

100 is post Karin Goku territory. She's not touching that.

[ZombieVito]

Goku Power Levels:

Spoiler:

Birth: 2
DB Minus: 5
Grandpa Gohan Training: 10
Oozaru: 100
Tailless: 8
Roshi Training: 50
Regrown Tail: 60
Oozaru: 600
Korin Training: 125
22nd Tournament: 180
Ultra Divine Water: 260
Kami Training (Weighted Clothing): 280
Unweighted: 350
5 Years Later: 334
Unweighted: 416
King Kai Training: 8,000+
Kaioken x2: 16,000+
Kaioken x3: 24,000+
Kaioken x4: 32,000+
100x Gravity Training: 90,000
Kaioken x2: 180,000
Kaioken x10: 900,000
Recovery Boost: 3,000,000
Kaioken x20: 60,000,000
SSJ: 150,000,000
Yardrat Training: 4,500,000
SSJ: 225,000,000
3 Years Training: 5,625,000
SSJ: 281,250,000
Time Chamber Training: 28,125,000
SSJ: 1,406,250,000
7 Years Training: 84,375,000
SSJ: 4,218,750,000
SSJ2: 8,437,500,000
SSJ3: 33,750,000,000
4 Years Training: 120,000,000
SSJ: 6,000,000,000
SSJ2: 12,000,000,000
SSJ3: 48,000,000,000

I don't have it in me right now to do SSJG and the rest of Super. SSJG has no official multiplier and extrapolating what it would be is a fruitless effort. It is my opinion that ritual SSJG granted a much bigger boost than it does nowadays. Ritual SSJG is supposed to be above Vegetto, but there is no coherent fusion multiplier aside from "tens of times" or "dozens of times" and A X B is stupid and is too much power bloat imo.

Vegeta Power Levels:

Spoiler:

Kid: 13,000
Adult: 18,000
Oozaru: 180,000
Recovery Boost 1: 24,000
Recovery Boost 2: 30,000
Recovery Boost 3: 250,000
Fully Rested: 500,000
Recovery Boost 4: 2,200,000
1 Year Training: 4,000,000
3 Years Training: 5,700,000
SSJ: 285,000,000
Time Chamber Training: 17,100,000
SSJ: 855,000,000
SSJ Grade 2: 1,068,750,000
Time Chamber Second Visit: 18,000,000
SSJ: 900,000,000
SSJ Grade 2: 1,125,000,000
SSJ (Enraged): 1,406,250,000
7 Years Training: 81,000,000
SSJ: 4,050,000,000
SSJ2: 8,100,000,000
Majin: 8,437,500,000
Revived: 84,375,000
SSJ: 4,218,750,000
SSJ2: 8,437,500,000
4 Years Training: 120,000,000
SSJ: 6,000,000,000
SSJ2: 12,000,000,000
SSJ2 (Enraged): 96,000,000,000

Piccolo Power Levels:

Spoiler:

Demon Clan: 343
Giant: 360
5 Years Later: 322
Unweighted: 408
1 Year Training: 3,500
King Kai Training: 300,000
Nail Fusion: 1,500,000
1 Year Training: 4,000,000
3 Years Training: 270,000,000
Kami Fusion: 540,000,000
Time Chamber Training: 1,080,000,000
7 Years Training: 2,600,000,000
4 Years Training: 3,000,000,000

Krillin Power Levels:

Spoiler:

Temple Monk: 7
Master Roshi Training: 48
Advanced Roshi Training: 130
Korin Training: 275
Kami Training: 1,770
Potential Unlock (Initial): 13,000
Potential Unlock (Power Rising): 75,000
Potential Unlock (Peak VS Freeza): 800,000
3 Years Training: 5,530,000
7 Years Later (sparring with 18): 52,000,000

This looks good but unfortunately Daima confirmed Base Goku > Shin > Piccolo.

[ZombieVito]

It does?

Well, Shin > Piccolo can still be retconned but Base Goku > Shin is clear.

[ZombieVito]

Well, Shin > Piccolo can still be retconned but Base Goku > Shin is clear.

I am sure that Shin > Piccolo will be retconned, but we shall see. Seeing as Base Goku > Shin, certain interpretations must be re-evaluated. At what point was Freeza surpassed then? Do you think it happened after the 3 years training for the Androids? Piccolo mentioned to the group that if they could not contribute to the fight to not show up with full knowledge of Freeza, King Cold, the power of Super Saiyan, and the fact that the Androids were superior. Is it possible that everyone who showed up surpassed Freeza at that point?

Also Goku > Shin in the Buu arc makes the power jump in base during Super much less insane.

Well, Daizenshuu states the kids displayed power on par with 18 so I guess they surpassed Freeza at the very least after their first trip to the RoSaT.

[ZombieVito]

Well, Daizenshuu states the kids displayed power on par with 18 so I guess they surpassed Freeza at the very least after their first trip to the RoSaT.

I think it says they were equal because the kids were handicapped. Without the restraints, Goten and Trunks probably wouldn’t need the RoSaT to surpass No.18.

I meant Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks.

[ZombieVito]

I will note again that Piccolo is explicitly weaker than Zarbon in Resurrection F and also gets tired out fighting soldiers that Jaco can beat. And in the same movie Gohan is unsure if he can even turn Super Saiyan and then drops it after one punch.

Stop fighting it with headcanon and accept it. A lot of the cast got massively weaker. Toriyama's conception just seems to be what they get super weak but then spike back up to their former peaks again with relatively little training.

Shisami is not Zarbon tier in Toriyama's script.

[ZombieVito]

Wait, what the hell?

Shisami is not even in the room when that was said. He's first mentioned on Earth after Toriyama notes Freeza hired powerful mercenaries to fill up the ranks.

Good thing Toei fixed this.

[ZombieVito]

So Trunks SSG3 10 times increase was probably just a mistranslation?

Subarashii.

It's also nice to have a statement on Spopovich's power. Several times his normal power would easily put him on the double digits, probably around 25-30.