Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[ahill1]

@Analytic

I'd increase Piccolo (Cell Games) even further. He did not seem to be so messed up after the Cell Junior fight. I think he being 78% of the Cell Junior is too much of a gap.

Why do you have Goku SSJ2 (Boo saga) and Majin Vegeta that stronger than SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan? Even more when Piccolo was not so sure about Majin Vegeta's superiority.

Why is Piccolo (Boo arc) weaker than Cell Games Piccolo?

[ahill1]

@Analytic

More questions:

Why do you have Goku base that stronger than Yakon? Goku had problems dodging Yakon's firsts hits and Gohan even offered help to Goku, when Goku should not transform into SSJ (though the dark could play a factor on it, sure).

Buff Boo 2x stronger than Super Boo? Why so much? All Goku said was that Buff was becoming stronger IIRC. I'd not put him any above of Ultimate Gohan.

You do have Dabra equal to Perfect Cell who fought Goku, I see. What do you do about Goku later saying Dabra was a lot stronger than he thought? This at least should imply Dabra > Cell (vs Goku).

Also, do you think FPSSJ Gohan (Cell Games) was way, way better than Cell (suppressed vs Goku)? Since Vegeta said kid Gohan was far better than his older self, by this logic Gohan (Cell Games) should be far better than suppressed Cell vs Son Goku. Cell's going to his real speed doesn't seem that increase of power to me.

I think East Kaioshin being many, many and many times stronger than the base Saiyans is a bit farfetched, as he was amazed at base Vegeta's power, even going as far as to say he surpassed all of his expectations.

[ahill1]

Kuririn being only at 150,000 during the Androids' arrival is too ridiculous IMO. I mean, that should be his power level against Freeza (and that's already a bit too low).

[ahill1]

@Kaboom: where do you have Chaozu, Yamcha, Tenshinhan, Kuririn and Gohan during Mecha Freeza's arrival?

[ahill1]

Where do you guys have Monster Zarbon? I'm thinking of him being a little bit stronger than post Zenkai Vegeta (30k). The implications of him being stronger are pretty good imo. Is it wrong?

Vegeta (Zenkai) 30,000
Monster Zarbon 31,000

[ahill1]

Yeah, I'd put them basically equal. In two stances Vegeta brought up Zarbon being off guard, and then resort throwing sand in his eyes to gain the edge. If Vegeta was stronger, it was by a very small margin.

[ahill1]

Considering today characters like Whis, Vados, Beerus and Champa, battle powers would be in the trillions already?

The power levels were already in the trillions in the Cell Games IMO.

[ahill1]

King Cold : 75,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 80,000,000
Freeza (100%) : 140,000,000
Goku SSJ (Namek) : 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza (100%) : 160,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ (1 arm) : 180,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ (Mecha saga) : 200,000,000
Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) : 220,000,000
Piccolo (Androids saga) : 260,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ (Androids saga) : 300,000,000
Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) : 330,000,000
Future #18 : 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ (Mecha saga) : 340,000,000
Future #17 : 360,000,000
Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) : 390,000,000
Kamiccolo (weighted) : 450,000,000
Present #18 : 450,000,000
Present #17 : 500,000,000
Kamiccolo (w/o weights) : 520,000,000


I really, really like this. There's nothing wrong with my numbers, I'd say.

[ahill1]

King Cold : 75,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 80,000,000
Freeza (100%) : 140,000,000
Goku SSJ (Namek) : 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza (100%) : 160,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ (1 arm) : 180,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ (Mecha saga) : 200,000,000
Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) : 220,000,000
Piccolo (Androids saga) : 260,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ (Androids saga) : 300,000,000
Goku SSJ (Mecha saga) : 330,000,000
Future #18 : 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ (Mecha saga) : 340,000,000
Future #17 : 360,000,000
Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town) : 390,000,000
Kamiccolo (weighted) : 450,000,000
Present #18 : 450,000,000
Present #17 : 500,000,000
Kamiccolo (w/o weights) : 520,000,000


I really, really like this. There's nothing wrong with my numbers, I'd say.

Since I've already debated with you and put my point what is wrong with these numbers, I'm not gonna do it again. I don't think I can convince you otherwise because

I really, really like this. There's nothing wrong with my numbers, I'd say.

However, I will post my own numbers for these beings:

Freeza = 60,000,000 (50%) , 36,000,000 (Post GD) , 96,000,000 (100%, injured) , 55,000,000 (No stamina)

Goku = 62,000,000 (x20) , 18000 (Post genki dama) , 4,000,000 (Zenkai) , 100,000,000 (SS)
SS trunks = 99,000,000
Mecha freeza = 30,000,000
King cold = 30,000,000

Future gohan = 70,000,000 (2 arms) , 96,000,000 (1 arm)
Future androids = 164,000,000 (#17) , 152,000,000 (future #18)
Yadrat Goku = 115,000,000

--- 3 years later ---
Goku = 150,000,000
Vegeta = 150,000,000 (Or a bit higher) , Tired = 65,000,000
Trunks = 130,000,000
Piccolo = 95,000,000
#19 = 20,000,000 , post vegeta = 60,000,000
Dr gero = 60,000,000 , post = 70,000,000

#17 = 190,000,000
#18 = 180,000,000
Cell = 156,000,000
Kamiccolo = 180,000,000 (weights), 190,000,000 (unweighted)
Cell (post) = 240,000,000
#16 = 241,000,000

Do you think Freeza wasn't at his best when he used his 100%? I think 100% means 100%.

[ahill1]

Where do you guys have the base Saiyans during Boo saga?

[ahill1]

@RandomGuy96 @DanielSSJ

Gohan that close to pre Majin Vegeta? Vegeta was sure he could beat Dabra, no?


I have:

Son Goten : 450,000,000
#18 : 450,000,000
Chibi Trunks : 460,000,000
Son Gohan : 480,000,000
Vegeta (pre Majin) : 576,000,000
~post Majin : 720,000,000
Son Goku : 720,000,000
#16 : 1,000,000,000

[ahill1]

I don't think DBS is following the end of Z. When Goku and Vegeta were searching fighters for the tournament, Goku noted that little Boo reborn is still too young or something like that, and Vegeta saw he saying that. At the end of Z, though, Vegeta had no idea of who was Uub.

I don't see Uub enranged being stronger than base Goku, either. I see them being the same power.

[ahill1]

I have a few issues:

1- Why is Akkuman = Tao Pai Pai? Once Goku got serious, he one-shotted Akkuman. Goku could not do the same to Tao.

2- Piccolo (+Kuririn and Gohan's ki) should be higher, according to your numbers for Gohan and Kuririn.

[ahill1]

Can't take credit for this argument, but something Super Saiyan Turlast x4 brought up was that Krillin still considered Nappa's battle power "beyond belief" (or something like that) even after sensing Goku's 5,000. I'm pretty sure that that'd at least prove Nappa > 5,000.

That's a pretty good point. Good catch, Super Saiyan Turlast x4.

[ahill1]

I probably already asked it, but I'd like to see your numbers again:

Future Android #17
Future Android #18

Trunks SSJ (Androids saga)
Goku SSJ (Androids saga)
Vegeta SSJ (Androids saga)

Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town)

[ahill1]

I probably already asked it, but I'd like to see your numbers again:

Future Android #17
Future Android #18

Trunks SSJ (Androids saga)
Goku SSJ (Androids saga)
Vegeta SSJ (Androids saga)

Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town)

Future Android #17: 280,000,000
Future Android #18: 270,000,000

Trunks SSJ (Androids saga): 180,000,000
Goku SSJ (Androids saga): 240,000,000
Vegeta SSJ (Androids saga): 250,000,000

Imperfect Cell (Ginger Town): 270,000,000

Why do you think Vegeta was that stronger than Trunks?

[ahill1]

^Agreed. I'd have the three Super Saiyans in the same range of power during the Androids saga:

Vegeta 100
Goku 95
Trunks 88

^That's what I like. Trunks is noticeable weaker than Vegeta but still in the same range of power IMO.

[ahill1]

Zeno's introduction ruined the history imo. It ended with Whis status.

[ahill1]

Snip

I guess there was a misunderstanding, happy that it's cleared up.

I find Bulma unreliable because she can't sense ki, the manga always presents those without the ability as doubtful, mostly incompetent. We just have to look at Freeza's army, many seasonable fighters with ki control themselves, who had no idea how strong someone was without a scouter.

If I said Trunks might not have powered significantly, I would be an hypocrite this is Dragon Ball after all. But that isn't my argument. I believe the last time Trunks fought the Androids was right before going into the past, like we saw in Trunks Story. Which would make him on par with an individual future Android when he met Goku.
I say this because the way Trunks Story developed, him fighting the Androids again would be contradictory. He was a stubborn kid, only at the end after barely surviving the Androids does he decide to hear his mother and place his faith into Goku.
Why would he risk death in those 8 months? It makes no sense. This is highlighted in the Android Arc by his very careful nature, he doesn't take any risks while facing the Androids. Always wanting to wait for Goku.

We don't actually know Trunks expectations of Goku, it doesn't have to be related to himself or Gohan's power. I actually think it's related to Freeza, the measuring tool of that mini-arc. It's very much in the air.

As far as how Trunks matches up to his version of the Androids, there is a bit of back-and-forth here. First, in the Trunks mini-arc, he says that even one-on-one, he can barely escape with his life. Then, 3 years later, he says that he can fight fairly well against the future ones. Then, when we get the Trunks History chapter, when he's in the hospital, he says the gap between them is still pretty large. So either Toriyama isn't sure himself and he's just going back and forth on the issue (which, knowing Toriyama, is a valid stance to take), or Trunks did fight them again after he had gotten stronger. As careful as Trunks is, do you really think he'd turn a blind eye if someone was in need? Do you really, truly believe that he would just ignore it. I'm with you in that Trunks wouldn't actively pick a fight with the Androids in the hopes of taking them down, but I'm sure if someone was in danger form the Androids, and Trunks was nearby, he wouldn't just look the other direction while they went on a slaughter spree. He would put himself at risk in order to give the innocent bystanders enough time to get to safety and retreat after they were out of harms way.

According to the Japanese manga, future #17 said after future Trunks just showed up again that he's challenged them multiple times and that he thinks he'll never get sick of his efforts. I highly doubt they only fought once considering that.

[ahill1]

Sorry for the double post, but only a doubt: Does the Daizenshuu 4 state Vegeta (vs 1st form Freeza) was stronger than 530,000?