148. I tried to make the Boo saga increases a little bigger for seven years. I then tried to scale accordingly. I still stand by Toriyamas recent BOG statements of near perfect strength by the Boo saga. Everything before Trunks' arrival is the same.
By the way Zombie I go with the 150 120 Freeza thing so your not gonna be happy.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Fri Aug 02, 2013 11:18 pm, edited 4 times in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Mine is also on page 149, if you wanna look...
But then, like most people around here, I go with official information, so maybe that won't tickle your fancy.
148. I tried to make the Boo saga increases a little bigger for seven years. I then tried to scale accordingly. I still stand by Toriyamas recent BOG statements of near perfect strength by the Boo saga. Everything before Trunks' arrival is the same.
Hmmm... how strong do you have everyone in the EoZ? Considering they're stronger in BoG, I think that maybe having base Goku at 100 million leaves things too cramped for him to get decent improvement and still be not match for Freeza.
It seems like you just changed the Cell Games numbers. Which ones were changed in the Buu Saga?
On the Cell Games: I think Goku should be nerfed slightly. I think him being more than 90% of Cell is too much; he seemed like he was at a big disadvantage. I also don't think that the Cell that fought Goku should be equal to SS Gohan; Gohan was unimpressed by the power Cell displayed there, and Cell had to power up just to hit Gohan. Gohan also floored Cell before the power up when he actually tried to retaliate.
Maybe an error: you have Initial Perfect Cell stronger than Grade III Trunks when the opposite was stated.
I think SS2 Goku should either be only 9 billion or Gohan at the Cell Games should be higher. Piccolo had trouble telling the difference between Majin Vegeta's ki and kid Gohan's ki; SS2 Goku and Majin Vegeta shouldn't be gods to Cell and Gohan.
Another nitpick: I think the difference between Kaioshin and Piccolo is too small. Piccolo thought it was pointless to even try to fight him and said that they were dimensions apart. I think even I have the gap between them too small at the moment...
I raised Gohan and kept Goku where he was so Gohan would be unimpressed. I lowered Perfect Cell vs Trunks. I'm thinking about Kaioshin.
Zombie wrote:Not gonna comment on the Daiz PL since they don't make sense but I will say this:
- Where are the two power ups Freeza did on hes second form? 2 power ups?
- Why do you have SSJ Vegeta that more powerful than Goku in the Android saga? Piccolo said that Vegeta might have surpassed him, might. Piccolo says the samething about the SSJ2's and they were somewhat stronger than Gohan, It's likely Vegeta has a pretty good advantage
- Wheres Semi Cell's power up? He powers up?
- Super Vegeta > Initial PC? That is what 16 states, I wrote rising next to it as he slowly increases his power.
- I think the gap between Vegeta and the juniors is a bit high. I'm sure the juniors can beat him easier if they went for the kill right away. Cell says enough playing around and that only Vegeta and Trunks can hold on for now.
- Goten and Trunks should be a lot closer to Gohan. I don't think so.
- Yakon should be a tad stronger, Gohan thought Goku might be in danger fighting alone. I'll increase Yakon then
- Kibito is too close to Gohan, he couldn't even lift the Z sword. Kibito was stated in the Daiz to be able to give Gohan a good fight if he doesn't go SSJ
- Gotenks weaker than Piccolo? Possible set up gag from that one scene that made Gotenks in base look stronger (also to not bloat powers more than already), debating on it.
- Evil Buu that far from Kid Buu? I really want to hear why. Random and I believe Evil Boo has most of the power Super Boo has as everytime Boo gets angry his power sky rockets. He can fill you in better than me.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I think you and Zombie have different definitions of who "Initial" Perfect Cell is. You're referring to the suppressed Cell that 16 said was still inferior to Vegeta, right?
On Kibito: he can give Gohan a fight. That doesn't mean he isn't still much physically weaker, especially considering his physiology compared to Gohan's and how ki works. And lifting feats are NEVER a good indication of power, otherwise Trunks would be comparable to Ginyu Saga Goku.
Yes. Initial Perfect Cell showed weaker ki than Super Vegeta until he slowly brought out more and more and overwhelmed Vegeta.
Where was the power up. I'd like to see it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I don't have a scan, but it's when Vegeta was beating Cell up. Cell says it's time to get serious, powers up, and punches Vegeta, but Vegeta pseudo-tanks the punch.
I just saw it in the herms checker. But what do I put initial Semi Cell at then
Chapter: 378 (DBZ 184), P11.2, P11.4
Context: After Cell unleashes his full power
Vegeta: “Oh, your battle power really flew up there…But so what?”
Trunks: “…This is father’s victory.”
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:That's rather troublesome for me, as having Cell tank a punch and THEN power up would make him too high relative to where I want to have everyone else. I'm just going with "he demolished 16, stopped putting out full power, and powered up when Vegeta fought him".
I put a level, but it feels way to low to be the initial form. That or Vegeta seemed to be belittling him so maybe it wasn't too big as he scoffed at Cells level.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I think either way you have Semi-Perfect Cell far too low. He tanked 16's punch in a Broly-esque way. The gap between him and 16 should be absolutely massive compared to even the gap between him and Vegeta.
So should I lower 16 or what.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zombie wrote:- Kibito can't pick up something that Gohan can, hes weaker. I seriously don't get why the Daiz said he could give Gohan a fight, the guy has literally no feats at all.
- Goten and Trunks are very close to Gohan, it's very clear when they train for the budokai.
- Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Dende and Piccolo can feel ki, don't you think anyone of them would have said that Gotenks is weaker than Piccolo when he rushed to fight Fat Buu?
Lifting strength isn't a good indicator. Look at the different gravity trainings and how Trunks wouldn't be special as he had a hard time with just 150.
Random will tell you why we can't take everything seriously with the Gag and true feats
Herms notes only one increase in Freeza's second form. Piccolo only mentions the transformation increase and not a power up. Not too much though just an increase as said by the others on the only one.
I added a Semi Perfect Cell one with Vegeta belittling him I think he was sarcastic on his increase
I'll lower the Cyborgs.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 12:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Zombie wrote:Guess we will not see eye to eye on this, anyway:
Herms notes only one increase in Freeza's second form. Not too much though just an increase.
Really? I need to see this.
Piccolo quotes only one power up. He only had the first feeling of Freeza's first form. So it's likely he commented on that.
This is the other one
Chapter: 298 (DBZ 104), P1.3
Context: Freeza’s still powering up after Gohan’s attack
Gohan: “It…it can’t be…His ki power is getting even stronger…!”
Vegeta: “Ho…how can this be?...To think that he could control his battle power…!”
Freeza: “I’ll return the pain I received many times over…”
It just says he is getting stronger. Not a gigantic jump just stronger.
no one mentiones he powered up again once against Piccolo. Freeza then mentions he has two more forms he can use.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P7.4
Context: after Freeza beats up on Piccolo
Kuririn: “Wh-what…He wasn’t [fighting] seriously before…”
Chapter: 301 (DBZ 107), P9.2
Vegeta: “H-his power is bottomless…Did I really intend to fight with that kind of monster?...”
This screams power up.
Alright I'll consider it.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Just reviewed it. After fighting evenly for a bit and blocking Piccolo's blast, he compliments him, Piccolo gets a little look of shock, and then Freeza starts beating him up. Eventually he punches Piccolo into the ground, creating a crater, and Piccolo emerges with a few wounds. Then Piccolo takes off his weights and is now confident he'll beat Freeza. He either was toying with Piccolo before, making them appear even, or he powered up. Vegeta's and Krillin's comments suggest the latter.
I added a little power up. Though with Kaioshin i'm not sure with how much more than Piccolo I should do.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
Second Form Freeza- 1,000,000
--Power Up 1- 1,100,000,000
--Power Up 2- 1,200,000,000
Third Form Freeza- 2,000,000
I just like having Freeza's second form at exactly 1% of his full power. It's one of those things I do that doesn't have a logical point, but I like it because it looks neat.
Also, dbzfan, I still kind of think your gaps between 16/17 and Semi-Cell/16 are too small for the tanking and one-shotting depicted. I also notice that you don't have a level for the Cell that tanked Vegeta's kick?
The Cell that Tanked Vegeta's kick is anywhere between the rising and the one who fought Trunks. It's also why i'm pretty satisfied with the levels I got. you have Cell tanking Vegeta at 64%. We also have Piccolo stating 17's punch was weak which could factor into the other Cyborgs as well.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Huh? You have the one who fought Trunks at not even x1.25 as strong as Vegeta.
I don't have as big of a gap as I believe Grade 3 is 100x Base while you have 125x base.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:How did Cell tank Vegeta's kick to the neck then?
Because Vegeta was fighting sloppy and wasn't at tip top shape. Also gaps are all over the place without much consistency. The best we can do is try. Perhaps Cell shot up his power and dropped it without anyone noticing.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Then would you mind finding the quote from the manga?
I don't know if this applies to anything else, but I've heard that the Viz translation of the manga changes a lot of lines for speech bubble purposes, while Herms translates them literally. I at least know that they changed a certain line during the Buu Saga to make Piccolo seem stronger than he is. Hence why I'm using Herms' translations for my list.
From the VizBig I own
Goku: Hey...Piccolo! Did you go in the Room of Spirit and Time?
Piccolo: Indeed
Goku: I can tell! You look a lot stronger!
Piccolo: Why don't you just say it? I've grown much stronger...But I still can't do much against Cell.
Goku: Well...Duh.
Piccolo: Hmph. I suppose I asked for that one... So what do you want here?
So basically it says the same thing.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Well. That's good to know. Thanks.
So yeah, it isn't implied anywhere that Piccolo is above Super Vegeta. Though he is implied to be close to him at least, since Trunks is shocked when he Goku says that Piccolo can't do anything to Cell.
What do you think of my new list, by the way?
Too tired to look too far into it. It's 5:00am. It's a good list that avoids over bloating for the most part. I personally have Piccolo above the kids as he was dominate inside Super Boo. A reason for this is because Bootenks could use the full 30 minutes of fusion even though SSJ3 Gotenks only has 5 minutes before he defuses. So he should have full access to there powers if he could keep using Gotenks full power beyond 5 minutes. But's that's just me. I also would never put the humans that high.
I'm thinking of making Kid Boo stronger as he could hold off the Genki Dama which probably holds more power than FP SSJ3 Goku and push it back. Though that could be considered just the weight of the attack. To tired to think it through.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Thanks. I don't put a lot of stock into Piccolo's cape popping up on Super Buu; the kids still influenced his appearance significantly, going by his hands and facial features. He looks much different with just Piccolo absorbed. It's also never stated that the dominant one in Buu (which I don't think Piccolo was, he just was more dominant than he was when Gotenks was in there) is the strongest. In fact we have at least one example of the exact opposite happening, with South Kaioshin and Grand Kaioshin. Also, now I have Goten = Gohan, as the Daizenshuu says, so now I don't feel like a hypocrite whenever I bring that up...
Also also, Piccolo called the kids "Earth's last hope" before he even knew about fusion. Them. Not him. Their power up also freaked Piccolo out.
Yeah... I have the humans that high mostly because of Gero saying he can get a lot of energy for them. Also because Piccolo was implied to gain an absurd amount of power from doing the same training as the humans for a week. I admit it's not a lot to go on, but it is something, and I prefer to follow in-universe logic rather than dismissing things out of hand. If Gero says absorbing the humans energy will give him an edge over Vegeta, I have no reason not to believe him, since he has a built in scouter and all. I try not to over complicate things too much.
I don't know how to take the Genki Dama scene. If anything it would suggest he's actually waaaaay stronger than Goku and was just toying the whole time, since his Kamehameha failed to deflect it while he did it with his bare hands when he panicked.
Still seems to me Piccolo's traits stand the most dominant. The whole the boys can be the only hope can mean a number of things. If they are this strong now then through the ROSAT they can become much stronger in a short time. I also don't know exactly when that quote was mentioned. Wouldn't you freak out if you could bench 200 and some 8 year old could bench 180. I would freak too.
Its possible. But I can't see the humans making such a large gains. Stronger than first form Freeza seems too much to me.
I haven't decided how to determine the Genki-Dama scene.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:I would think that the boys were the ones effecting him more, since they morphed his body, while Piccolo just gave him a piece of clothing. We know that the strongest isn't the most dominant all the time, as evidenced by Fat Buu. And I think something important to note in that scene is Piccolo is freaked out while Goku is not.
I don't see what the boys really contributed to the absorption. All they gave him was fingers. Piccolo turban is the thing that sticks out most which leads me to believe he has the biggest impact. Also Goku says Piccolo's coming out strong now which to me means he has the biggest influence now on Super Boo's power. Goku is significantly stronger than them. The boys IMO are about in Piccolo's league. Wouldn't you be terrified by Kids who are practically in your league when they are so young.
Chapter: 502 (DBZ 308), P10.4-5
Goku: “Hahha—ah! Piccolo’s coming out strong now! Looks like the Fused squirts have returned to normal! You ran out of time! Tooo—oo bad! Your power’s fallen a whole lot. Cheh…I’m a little disappointed. This way, Gohan will be able to beat you even on his own…”
Note: presumably be saying that "the Fused squirts have returned to normal", Goku means that Gotenks has split back up into Goten and Trunks, not merely that Gotenks' reverted from Super Saiyan 3 to regular Gotenks. At the very least, Goten and Trunks are separate by the time Goku and Vegeta find them inside of Boo.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:They also changed his face. Buuccolo has the same facial features as Buutenks.
I don't think that really proves anything other than Piccolo was influencing Buu more now. Even if he was the dominant one (and I don't think he is), it wouldn't mean a lot, since as I said, there's nothing about the strongest absorption in Buu being the most dominant, and we have at least one example of the opposite happening.
I'm pretty sure coming out strong now pretty much means he is the dominant influence. Why else say "Piccolo is coming out strong now." That's because Gotenks was coming out strong before. Only difference I notice is fingers and clothes.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Even so, him being the dominant influence wouldn't mean he's stronger.
Coming out strongest pretty much sounds like it is to me. Both Boocollo's look practically the same facial wise. You can theorize it wouldn't. I'm just justifying my reasoning for having Piccolo above the kids. These are unofficial levels. We don't have to share who is stronger than who on everything.
Last edited by dbzfan7 on Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
RandomGuy96 wrote:Yeah, I know. There's nothing wrong with using that as evidence; I used to do that myself. It's just not definitive or conclusive.
So are many things. I'm just justifying my reasoning, not forcing down beliefs. Some people have Gotenks below Majin Vegeta early on, some don't use the Daiz at all, some go by Goten=Gohan (as you do now but I don't). There are many variables to go by.
Why Dragon Ball Consistency in something such as power levels matter!
Spoiler:
Doctor. wrote:I've explained before, I'll just paraphrase myself.
Power levels establish tension and drama. People who care about them (well, people who care about them in a narrative) don't care about the big numbers or the fancy explosions. If you have character A who's so much above character B, who's the main character, you're gonna be left wondering how in the hell character B, the character we're supposed to care and root for, is going to escape the situation or overcome the odds. It makes us emotionally invested.
If character B doesn't escape the situation in a believable way that's consistent with previous events, then that emotional investment is gone. It was pointless tension, pointless drama made just to suck in the viewer. It has no critical value whatsoever. The audience is left believing that the author can just create whatever scenarios he wants and what happens to the characters is decided by whatever the author wants to happen, regardless of the events that happened in the story. Which, in fairness, is what happens, but the audience wants to be fooled. The audience wants to know that the world they're following has rules. That the world they're invested in isn't going to bend to external factors that are irrelevant to them.
An author can do whatever he wants with the characters, that's not false. But the author should also have the responsibility to make sure it fits in cohesively with the other events in the narrative he has created.
