Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:03 pm

dbzfan7 wrote:In your opinion.
Exactly. In my opinion, such gains are not possible through normal means & such short time.
dbzfan7 wrote:Piccolo already did it and Goku is far more talented.
But Goku isn't merged with anyone, and he has reached his peak as well. And Goku & Piccolo seem to be equally talented, which is why they were rivals.
dbzfan7 wrote:Vegeta breaks logic when he makes his SSJ2 form stronger than his SSJ3 forms power.
Makes more sense to me than GT Goku. It has a logical (IMO) explanation, while Goku having such gains isn't logical, nor is explained.
dbzfan7 wrote:Amplification isn't so simple or else guys like Freeza and Jr should have died after the amplified attacks they went through.
Of course it's not simple, Vegeta managed to accidentally do this after years of extreme training.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:12 pm

OK, let's just agree that we disagree here as well. Arguing about opinions won't get us anywhere.

To end all this, I don't consider the anime (fillers, movies, GT, OVA, Specials) as a reliable source for feats & power statements. They have made Mutaito stronger than Mutaito, Oozaru Vegeta stronger than SS4 Goku, and SS3 Goku stronger than Gohan Boo. And no, these are not typos. They are inconsistencies in the anime, which I won't follow.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Oct 14, 2013 4:54 am

TheMightyOzaru wrote: You could try the "RSSJ"(Need to find a better name) theory. Nothing contradicts it, and it would explain why base Goku fares so well against certain opponents in the movies and anime in his base form. Just use a 1.1-9.9x increase for that and you're golden(Well not really :lol: ). I have base GT Goku at 3,600,000,000 at the start of GT.

Nah, I don't like it. Doesn't make much sense to me. I'll just not put lots of thought to it.
TheMightyOzaru wrote:As to why Vegeta is so strong, Vegeta does have a ton of hidden potential, as displayed in Battle of Gods. Just say he figured out how to use it in that 5 year gap, and that's why he's close-ish to Goku.
But it is implied in the movie that Vegeta's power was amplified, not that he drew any hidden power...
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Oct 14, 2013 9:34 am

According to Goku, Vegeta forced himself to get stronger so much, that he used all of his power at once, which drained all of his ki at once. Which means that his power was amplified, like it happens with techniques like Kamehameha, Final Flash, Makankosappo, and Kaio-ken. So it's something like a technique. Besides, Gohan's ki was never drained when he had rage boosts, so it's obvious that they are different things.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:02 pm

Victorious wrote:base EOZ Goku is on like Kid Buu level based on fighting evenly with Uub.

That's likely where GT got that idea from about base kid Goku being so damn strong.
Goku isn't necessarily that strong in the manga (I personally think that Oob's power was slowly rising, and then went full power (aka Pure Boo/SS3 level) when he used the Kiai, since Daizenshuu states that his power increased after the Kiai), but yes, especially considering his fight with Oob in the anime. But I'm not sure if they were following any real logic. I think they just said "hey, it's been so long, Goku should be able to beat guys like Freeza, Cell, and Majin Boo in normal form now! Why not?". Yet we literally saw crazy shit like SS4 Vegeta >>> SS Vegeta >>> Oozaru Vegeta > SS4 Goku >= SS4 Vegeta >>> SS Goku > SS(2?) Vegeta > Super Oob >>> SS3 Goku >>> SS Goku > SS Gohan > base Goku >= base Rild >= base Gohan >>> base Goku... Toei seems to think that there is a small difference in power between base, SS, SS2, SS3, and SS4 as well... After all these shit, I just gave up on logic in GT and made up my logic. Don't make me dive in filler/movie logic in power feats, statements, or even battle powers. :crazy:
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:28 pm

Rocketman wrote:GT basically runs on the Budokai videogames' logic.

Super Saiyan is +10% strength,SS2 is +15%, SS3 is +25% and SS4 +40%.
Judging from the Goku, Trunks, and Vegeta vs #13, #14, and #15 (movie), as well as the Goku vs Paikuhan (filler), this rule seems to apply in the anime in general.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 16, 2013 6:47 pm

KentalSSJ6 wrote:My theory with GT Goku us that he at least doubled in power from his End of Z appearance. He has been training nonstop with the human incarnation of Majin Buu for 5 years straight and we clearly see Uub can push Goku's limits big time judging by their appearance after their sparring session on the lookout. I believe the stronger the sparring partner = the bigger the gains you receive. Considering Kid Buu would have killed Goku if not for the wish to restore his power, I can easily believe that 5 years of sparring with him would allow GT base Goku to surpass SSJ3 Z Goku.
Thing is, Goku wasn't sparring for 5 years. He was teaching Oob how to fight, and how to control & develop his huge power, so that they can have their incredible fight in the beginning of GT. They weren't sparring like that all these years, they were getting prepared for this one fight.
KentalSSJ6 wrote:Thats as far as I go into GT territory with power levels outside of a SSJ4 multiplier. I can see how X4000 can make sense, but to see it go from 400 to 4000 seems abit far fetched to me. Id have personally put SSJ4 at X1500 at the most.
I personally have a huge multiplier for Super Saiyan 4 because I want Goku to be reasonably stronger from Z to GT & keep the Super Vegetto >= SS4 Goku.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Oct 17, 2013 3:29 am

KentalSSJ6 wrote:Id think GT Goku x4000 would equal Vegito.

Besides, if Goku at least doubled in GT wouldent he already be near Vegito level by himself? Vegito is Goku X Vegeta with some rival boost.

That being said, and seeing as Goku is stronger than Vegeta, GT Goku would just be Goku X Goku without the rival boost. If he isnt Vegito level already then hes pretty damn close. Times that by 4k and well...yeah.
... You really suck at match. :P
Let's say that Goku & Vegeta's are equals, and their BP is 3.000.000. Vegetto's BP would be 3.000.000 x 3.000.000 = 9.000.000.000.000. Now, Goku & Vegeta are far above 3.000.000 in Boo arc, so imagine how ridiculously overpowered Vegetto would be.

But personally, I don't believe that the "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" is supposed to be a formula to calculate Vegetto's BP. Not only it makes zero sense (the BP numbers is an artificial way to measure power, they can't be related with the magical Potara), but we also have another guidebook saying that Gotenks is dozens of times stronger than Goten or Trunks, and we have "Goten + Trunks = Gotenks", exactly like with "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto". The Gotenks "formula" obviously isn't supposed to be a formula to calculate his BP, and the "X" in "Goku X Vegeta = Vegetto" isn't only the multiplication symbol, but it also means "cross" (like in Street Fighter X Tekken). So, the way I see it, it actually says "Goku cross Vegeta make Vegetto".
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 19, 2013 10:47 am

About Pui Pui, Yakon, Kaioshin:

There isn't any implication that Kaioshin is weaker than Pui Pui & Yakon. Kaioshin was afraid of them because he was underestimating the Saiyans (because they are mortals), and overestimating Babidi's minions (because he only collects strong fighters). He also wasn't afraid that the Saiyans would lose, what he was afraid was that they would take damage & transfer it to Boo. Kaioshin however, is stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans, but below the Super Saiyans, and his physic powers were strong enough to stop SS2 Gohan from moving. So, he is stronger than the base Saiyans, but weaker than the Super Saiyans. Which means that there isn't any implication in the manga that the base Saiyans are above Freeza.

As for Gotenks pre & post RoSaT, here is what I posted very recently:
Gotenks is a moron that believes he is the strongest, so he thinks that he got so strong that he can beat Boo in base. Piccolo sees that Gotenks powered-up through training, and he sees Gotenks' confidence that he can win. He got quickly excited, only to realize that he was a fool for thinking that Gotenks was that strong. Long story short, Piccolo made a quick & mistaken judgment for Gotenks' strength. So, depending on how you interpret the line, it doesn't necessarily mean that base Gotenks > SS Gotenks.

Is SEG written by somone close to Toriyama or something?
No, but Toriyama supervised & approved SEG.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 19, 2013 11:26 am

Gogeta8001 wrote:Read above. Even if you think Kaioshin > Piccolo, that's more the reason why Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo.
Everyone was suppressed when they were spying Babidi & Dabra, yet they could tell who was valuable & who was trash, but without knowing how strong they were. So, since they are both magical beings, they could tell which of them had valuable energy (SS2 Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan) & which of them didn't (Piccolo & Kuririn).
Gogeta8001 wrote:How Gotenks performed against Buu isn't important. Piccolo's confidence in Gotenks is what matters.

Piccolo on SSJ Pre RoSaT Gotenks: This guy has no chance of winning! Buu is going going to kill this guy without any problems!

Piccolo on Base Post RoSaT Gotenks: This guy might have a chance of beating Buu!
It was more like this:

Piccolo on SSJ Pre RoSaT Gotenks: This guy has no chance of winning! Buu is going going to kill this guy without any problems!

Piccolo on Base Post RoSaT Gotenks: This guy might have a chance of beating Buu!... (2 seconds later)... Wait it's hopeless after all.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Oct 20, 2013 11:22 am

dbzfan7 wrote:I can see everyone get it now, because why not have several SSJ Gods.
Everyone can get Super Saiyan God for 7 minutes, but not everyone can absorb its power to make it permanent like Goku did. I can see Vegeta succeeding doing so, but what about Gohan, Goten, Pan, Trunks, and Bra?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:37 pm

RandomGuy96 wrote:If you're counting non-manga stuff anyway, then Syn Shenron is most likely the strongest unfused character, given how he tanked that x10 Kamehameha and all. Either him or Omega; if you're counting SSG as "not a fusion", I don't see why you can't count him.
All we know is that Beers is stronger than Super Vegetto, who is equal or stronger than SS4 Goku, who is close in power with Oozaru Baby, Super #17, SS4 Vegeta, and Si Xing Long, but weaker than Yi Xing Long, Super Yi Xing Long, and SS4 Gogeta. There isn't any way to tell if God Goku is stronger or weaker than Yi Xing Long or even SS4 Gogeta.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Oct 20, 2013 12:57 pm

Goten & Trunks are very talented, but Gohan hasn't shown any talent. His dormant power was the only special thing for him.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Mon Oct 21, 2013 4:23 am

Gogeta8001 wrote:Given the context of the scene, it's very plausible that Goku could have been supressed when Billis made that statement. We've seen Goku supressed on manyvoccasions before (being @ 5,000 when confronting Vegeta/Nappa and when confronting the Ginyu Force).
The thing is, Beers said that Goku looks like he can beat Freeza only as a Super Saiyan, and Kaio agrees.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Oct 22, 2013 3:18 am

Because this whole thread is a mess right now... Can you repeat why base Saiyans > Freeza, Gogeta8001? Because I'm lost in this debate.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Oct 23, 2013 6:47 am

dbzfan7 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Because this whole thread is a mess right now... Can you repeat why base Saiyans > Freeza, Gogeta8001? Because I'm lost in this debate.
Here is what he posted as his argument. He also says Base Kids=18

http://dbzf.co.uk/single/?p=8515914&t=8371634
I see. So...
  • About the Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta:
    We know that Gohan didn't get any stronger, unlike Goku & Vegeta. While Goku & Vegeta are stronger, they are not very far in power from Gohan, since Goku says that he could use Fusion with Vegeta or Gohan. Which means that Goku & Vegeta > Gohan only when they are in the same form.
  • About the Goten & Trunks:
    It is obvious that they are weaker than the adult Saiyans. However, SS Goten & SS Trunks seem to be good sparring partners for SS Gohan & SS Vegeta, which means that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta > Goten & Trunks only when they are in the same form.
  • About Piccolo:
    Back in Cell arc, Piccolo is implied to have surpassed Suppressed Perfect Cell (the one Super Trunks fought), and maybe even 50% SS Goku, because after training inside RoSaT, since he asks Goku if he believes that Piccolo has any chance against Cell, to which Goku answers no. Piccolo is much weaker than SS Goku, but much stronger than base Goku. Now, fast forward to Boo arc. Both Goku & Piccolo were training during those years, and since we know that Goku didn't grow many times stronger (since he is still not far from Gohan's level, who didn't train at all, but only stronger instead of weaker than him), so Piccolo should still be stronger than the base Saiyans. As for Dabra calling him trash, while saying that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta hide valuable energy, everyone was suppressed to zero, so Dabra & Babidi could somehow tell that the Saiyans were hiding valuable energy (since they can transform up to Super Saiyan 2, and Goku up to Super Saiyan 3), but they obviously couldn't measure their power, since they believed that Pui Pui should be enough to beat all 3 of them. So, it doesn't support the base Saiyans > Piccolo.
  • About #18:
    We know she is weaker than the base Saiyans & Piccolo, but there is no evidence to support that she is anywhere close to the base Saiyans. Even though Vegeta says that he is still the strongest in the tournament in base (which would mean that base Vegeta > Piccolo & #18), it's more than likely that it's Vegeta acting high & mighty like he does all the time, especially based on facts that make him weaker than Piccolo. And as for her fight with base "Mighty Mask", she wasn't going all out, since she thought she was fighting a random weakling. The Super Saiyan kids though seem to be stronger than her, since a suppressed ki blast from SS Trunks was considered dangerous for her.
  • About Kaioshin:
    Kaioshin is talking about Goku in general there. He knows that Goku can get stronger by turning Super Saiyan, so he could be talking about Super Saiyan Goku being above him. Let's also not forget that Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. So, Kaioshin is stronger than the base Saiyans.
  • About Pui Pui:
    Kaioshin said that Pui Pui is strong not because he sensed his power, he concluded that he was strong because Babidi only collects strong warriors. He doesn't say that the Saiyans or him are weaker, just that they should all be careful because if they are not careful, they could get damage & if they get damage, Boo will get more energy. He is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. However, it turns out that Pui Pui is a weakling. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Pui Pui.
  • About Yakon:
    Again, Kaioshin says again that the Saiyans should be careful against Yakon, and suggests to team up against him. It turns out that Yakon is dangerous mostly because he sucks light energy, making everything dark, and giving advantage to Yakon, which increases the possibilities for Goku to get damage, and give Boo energy. Like before, he is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. It turns out that SS Goku is much stronger than Yakon, and 2 base Saiyans would be enough to beat him. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Yakon.
  • About Freeza:
    We know that Super Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo >>> Freeza in Boo arc. However, there is no solid evidence that the base Saiyans are stronger than Full Power Freeza in the manga. And the BoG comes and states that the base Saiyans are weaker than Full Power Freeza. Beers says that base Goku doesn't look like he is strong enough to have beaten Freeza, and that he seems like he can power-up by turning Super Saiyan. Goku doesn't argue, and Kaio agrees with Beers. So, Freeza is stronger than the base Saiyans.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Oct 24, 2013 3:31 am

Victorious wrote:Babidi seems to be familiar with the realms of Kaioshin's power and thinks Pui Pui will solo the Z Senshi including Kaioshin. Pui Pui got wrecked by base Vegeta

Also Kaioshin suggested to team up against Yakkon as was brought up before. Why would he do that if he's stronger than Yakkon?
Babidi wanted to kill Kaioshin by himself to avenge his father, he didn't send Pui Pui & Yakon to kill him. And like I've already said before countless times, Kaioshin wasn't afraid that Pui Pui & Yakon would kill him or the Saiyans, he was overestimating them because Babidi only chooses strong warriors, and was afraid that the Saiyans would get careless & get damage from them, which would bring Boo one step closer to his revival, which is what Kaioshin is truly afraid of. Kaioshin wanted them to avoid getting any damage at all. However, it turned out that Pui Pui & Yakon were weaklings.
Victorious wrote:Bills statement about Goku "not being able to beat Freeza as he is" looked like it had to do with him checking out Goku's physical appearance [non SSJ] rather than his ki. Bills would not need to look at Goku's hair and check out his muscles in order to sense his power. He could do that from far far away. Bills also saw the footage of Goku's fight with Freeza and commented on Goku's gold hair. IMO Bills was not sensing Goku but physically examining him and realizing he's simply not in SSJ. Of course that POV alone doesnt mean Freeza couldnt beat base Goku but I just think the Bill's comment is about Goku's design and not him sensing Goku's battle power.
Beers said that Goku doesn't look strong enough to beat Freeza, but he looks like he can power-up by becoming Super Saiyan. Goku didn't argue, and Kaio said that Beers was correct. Which means that base Goku really is weaker than Freeza.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Oct 25, 2013 4:04 am

Gogeta8001 wrote:Back in Cell arc, Piccolo is implied to have surpassed Suppressed Perfect Cell (the one Super Trunks fought), and maybe even 50% SS Goku, because after training inside RoSaT, since he asks Goku if he believes that Piccolo has any chance against Cell, to which Goku answers no.

What does that show? Piccolo wouldn't be asking Goku about Cell if he thought he surpassed 50% MSS Goku.
It shows that Piccolo has powered-up significantly (according to Goku), so he is not below the base Saiyans.
Piccolo is much weaker than SS Goku, but much stronger than base Goku.

And you know this because? I'm not saying it's entirely impossible that he was stronger than the Base Saiyans but you haven't even said anything that proved your point. I can say (the H-word) > Buuhan just because it suits me well.
I know that because of this:
Spoiler:
And this:
Spoiler:
Piccolo can stand up against Cell Jr., while tired Goku cannot. Which shows that Piccolo > Tired SS Goku > base Goku, and that Cell Jr. is not too far stronger than Piccolo.
Now, fast forward to Boo arc. Both Goku & Piccolo were training during those years, and since we know that Goku didn't grow many times stronger (since he is still not far from Gohan's level, who didn't train at all, but only stronger instead of weaker than him), so Piccolo should still be stronger than the base Saiyans.

That's were your wrong again. CG Gohan had a pretty big lead over CG Goku. Buu Saga Goku surpassing CG Gohan is quite a feat considering the gap between them in the Cell Games. And once again, how does Piccolo come to play here? Another statement thrown out of the blue.
Goku's plan was to have Gohan to get angry to defeat Cell, implying that non-enraged SS Gohan < Cell. And since Goku wasn't far weaker than Cell, Gohan isn't far stronger than Goku. Boo arc Goku is stated to be stronger than Enraged Gohan from the Cell Games, but not by much.
Spoiler:
Piccolo says that SS2 Vegeta (who is equal with SS2 Goku) is perhaps stronger than Enraged SS2 Gohan, and since Vegeta confirms that Goku is stronger than Gohan, it means that Goku isn't much stronger than Enraged Gohan. And since Goku's power was similar enough with non-enraged Gohan for them to be able to use Fusion, who is as strong as CG non-enraged Gohan (according to the Daizenshuu, so IMO, he got "weaker" because of his rusty skills & because he couldn't get a rage boost easily. Vegeta implied that Gohan was strong enough to beat Dabra, but with his shitty skills, it was taking too long. In the same chapter, Goku calls Dabra as stronger that they thought because of his magical abilities, so it's not illogical to assume that Vegeta calls Gohan weaker because of his rusty skills.), it means that the rage-boost Gohan got in the Cell Games wasn't enormous, and that Goku didn't get strong enough to surpass Piccolo in base.
Spoiler:
As for Dabra calling him trash, while saying that Goku, Gohan, and Vegeta hide valuable energy, everyone was suppressed to zero, so Dabra & Babidi could somehow tell that the Saiyans were hiding valuable energy (since they can transform up to Super Saiyan 2, and Goku up to Super Saiyan 3), but they obviously couldn't measure their power, since they believed that Pui Pui should be enough to beat all 3 of them. So, it doesn't support the base Saiyans > Piccolo.

I want to know what exactly people are trying to prove with this. Dabura spitting Krillin and Piccolo has nothing with to do with anyone's power.
It does.
Spoiler:
We know she is weaker than the base Saiyans & Piccolo, but there is no evidence to support that she is anywhere close to the base Saiyans.

Despite Base Kids holding their own against her in the Tournament.
And as for her fight with base "Mighty Mask", she wasn't going all out, since she thought she was fighting a random weakling. The Super Saiyan kids though seem to be stronger than her, since a suppressed ki blast from SS Trunks was considered dangerous for her.

I suppose a random weaking can fly and fight on par with someone that makes Freeza's power look like nothing. Interesting.

Because #18 wasn't fighting seriously, and she can't sense ki from what we know. She was careful not to go all out against Mighty Mask, because she didn't know if he was weak or strong compared to her.
Even though Vegeta says that he is still the strongest in the tournament in base (which would mean that base Vegeta > Piccolo & #18), it's more than likely that it's Vegeta acting high & mighty like he does all the time, especially based on facts that make him weaker than Piccolo.

You have a point with Vegeta acting cocky and stuff but yet again, where does Piccolo come in to play here?
Because Piccolo is in the tournament, and Vegeta says that he is the strongest in base, which is wrong IMO.

Kaioshin is talking about Goku in general there. He knows that Goku can get stronger by turning Super Saiyan, so he could be talking about Super Saiyan Goku being above him.

Kaioshin's comment aabout being surpassed by the Saiyans comes after he sees Yakon die. Sure, he saw SSJ Goku kill Yakon but he's the same guy who thought he, Gohan, and Vegeta would have to help to beat Yakon when Base Goku was above Yakon.
We know that base Goku & Gohan would be enough to beat Yakon, but we don't know if base Goku is above Yakon. And again, Kaioshin wasn't afraid that Goku would lose, he was afraid that he would get damaged. If everyone had teamed up against Yakon, no one would get any damage. It turned out that Goku was more than enough. Kaioshin was wrong.
Let's also not forget that Kaioshin is stated to be stronger than Piccolo, who is stronger than the base Saiyans. So, Kaioshin is stronger than the base Saiyans.

If anything, all of this shows Base Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo
But we've seen that Piccolo > base Saiyans.

Kaioshin said that Pui Pui is strong not because he sensed his power, he concluded that he was strong because Babidi only collects strong warriors. He doesn't say that the Saiyans or him are weaker, just that they should all be careful because if they are not careful, they could get damage & if they get damage, Boo will get more energy. He is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. However, it turns out that Pui Pui is a weakling. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Pui Pui.

And yet he was still scared of Pui-Pui. He wouldn't be scared about them getting damaged if he knew that Base Vegeta could easily one-shot him.
He was paranoid. He overestimated Pui Pui, and he was warning the Saiyans all the time not to underestimate him because if Babidi took him under him, he must be strong. Turns out he was wrong. Pui Pui was weak.
Again, Kaioshin says again that the Saiyans should be careful against Yakon, and suggests to team up against him. It turns out that Yakon is dangerous mostly because he sucks light energy, making everything dark, and giving advantage to Yakon, which increases the possibilities for Goku to get damage, and give Boo energy. Like before, he is afraid that they will get damage, not that they will lose. It turns out that SS Goku is much stronger than Yakon, and 2 base Saiyans would be enough to beat him. So, based on previous facts, Kaioshin is stronger than Yakon.

Kaioshin's statement comes before Yakon uses any of these abillities. He's s*itting his pants because he thinks that theres no one that can beat Yakon. Here's what the situations would be granted either Kaioshin > Yakon or vice versa.
Because Kaioshin had already heard about Yakon (check chapter 450 or episode 223), and most likely also heard about his abilities.
Yakon > Kaioshin: We have to gang up on him if were going to win! We can't win on our own!

If Kaioshin > Yakon: If you don't want to help then screw you all! If your not going to help me, i'm going to one shot this monster my self! I'm already well capable of doing so you know!
Again, was afraid that Goku would get damage. He only said to team up against Yakon when Yakon almost sliced Goku, not because he didn't believe that Goku couldn't win, but because if everyone had teamed-up Yakon, they would definitely overpower him & none of them would get any damage. Kaioshin wanted to eliminate any risk of getting damage, and he couldn't judge everyone's strength properly because he was too scared. He was like "Ah! Pui Pui & Yakon are Babidi's minions! Meaning that they are strong! Be careful, if you get damage, Majin Boo will be revived and it will be the end of the world! If we team up against Babidi's minions, then definitely none of us will get any damage!", but it turned out that base Vegeta was stronger than Pui Pui, and base Goku & Gohan together would be enough to beat Yakon.
Just so you know, i'm not going to reply after this post. If you want to believe your little Freeza > Base Saiyans horse s*it after this, that's fine with me. I don't want to be bothered with this debate seeing how the majority of the evidence points to Base Saiyans > Freeza.
And I have yet to see your evidence...
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:12 pm

U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks were stronger than Evil Boo, while SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined were stated to be no match for Evil Boo, except if they use Fusion/Potara. Then, SS3 Goku can definitely manage something against Pure Boo.

Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh... Pure Boo just can't be stronger than Evil Boo.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: The Official Unofficial Power Levels Thread

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Sat Oct 26, 2013 4:39 pm

khalildh wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:U. Gohan & SS3 Gotenks were stronger than Evil Boo, while SS3 Goku & SS2 Vegeta combined were stated to be no match for Evil Boo, except if they use Fusion/Potara. Then, SS3 Goku can definitely manage something against Pure Boo.

Yeeeeaaaaahhhhh... Pure Boo just can't be stronger than Evil Boo.

Unless of course Goku was lying.
And why would Goku be lying?
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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