Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

How powerful does everyone think that alien champion who challenged Mr. Satan was? He was willing to take on someone who, as far as he knew, had defeated Beerus.

Between nappa & vegeta

[apex_pretador]

I think Giran should be higher than Yamcha during the 21st Budokai. Goku w/o tail actually put effort into taking him down while Yamcha was made a fool of by Jackie Chun and Krillin (who was tailless Goku's equal) wasn't that far off from Chun.

Yamchaa was confident to win before knowing that goku is participating.
Also, in the RRA arc & baba's tournament, he was implied to be not much weaker than krillin.

Goku wasn't serious vs Giran, who only troubled him due to his gum attack. Giran gave up after seeing actual strength of goku. We know that goku holds back a lot in general against regular opponents. Giran also thought that breaking the wall was a big deal. However, i'll move giran up a bit, to above bacterian.

[apex_pretador]

Goku wasn't serious vs Giran, who only troubled him due to his gum attack. Giran gave up after seeing actual strength of goku. We know that goku holds back a lot in general against regular opponents. Giran also thought that breaking the wall was a big deal. However, i'll move giran up a bit, to above bacterian.

Goku was serious... he had the upperhand but Giran was able to trade blows with him and was able to deal damage on him. Giran only admitted defeat after Goku's tail grew back.

Also, what in the RRA and Uranai Baba sagas suggests Yamcha and Krillin were even remotely close?

It was shown in the next tournament how goku has different levels of going all out.
- He fought krillin, & agreed not to hold back.
- He then told krillin that he's going to go "even more all out"
- He fought tien at a higher power than when he fought krillin
- He then told tien that he's going to go "full power" now.

These are 4 levels of going all out. He also told krillin to not go all out on weak opponents, as it may risk killing them. Giran's strongest attack hurt goku only a little. Also, till this point in the series, weak people could hurt strong ones , like bulma hitting roshi.

On Yamcha vs krillin being close debate, they have never been leagues apart in the series, not till namek arc.
Yamcha was confident in being able to beat all 4 fighters of baba at once, seeing krillin lose, & knowing that they will get stronger only. In the next tournament, he didn't do very bad against tien, who was equal to goku's FULL POWER.

Also, if i'm not mistaken, at some point krillin himself says that yamcha is "nearly as good as him". Goku also called yamcha "super strong".
Yamcha was confident to win the tournament, before seeing goku there. This means he must've surpassed an average champion. He also seems to have a lot of knowledge. He must've become stronger than what he expeected to be competition at tournament.

[apex_pretador]

So how many times stronger you guys have Gohan over SSJ3 Goku in the Buu arc?

Two times. Large enough for gohan to be massively stronger than goku & small enough to be covered up till by BoG.

Thanks for the quick replies. Another thing I wanted to ask is what gap do you guys have for Pure Buu and Goku.

Less than 10%

Goku - 32
kid buu - 34

Screw it I'll make then even then. Thanks.

Speaking of the kids. How big of a boost do you guys think the RoSaT gave them? 10%? 20%?

kids individually didn't get a huge boost, maybe 20% at best, but they achieved enough dormant power to go SS3.

What are ya'll's thoughts on all of the Kaioshin (North, South, East, West, Dai)? As well as Kibito and also Kibitoshin? How strong were they compared to Buu (Pure)?

strong enough to be useless

Anyways, I have only South kaioshin & kibitoshin above majin vegeta , but weaker than SS3 goku.
I'd put fat kaioshin close to a SS2 in power than a SS.

N / W - 9-10
East - 7 (kid) , 9 (adult)
South - 20
Kibitoshin - 18
Dai - 14

Majin vegeta - 16 (SS2)

Even if they all attacked buu together, they'd still have no chance.

What are your guys thoughts on Buff Boo? (aka Pure Boo + South Kaioshin)

I think he's not just South kaioshin + kid buu, but rather South kaioshin + dai kaioshin + kid buu


He's formed just after absorbing dai kaioshin, but only for a moment, after which he turns into fat buu (exact opposite sequence of buu arc.) This happens because of dai kaioshin's gentle nature & incompatibility with buu.

In power, I think he's up there with ult gohan.

Does anyone have a fusion equation for potara or fusion dance? Just curious as to if anyone actually does (especially potara, concerning Vegetto and Kibitoshin). And if anyone does what are your levels for:

Gotenks
*Gogeta (Buu Arc)
*Gokhan (Buu Arc/Potara)
Vegetto
Kibitoshin

(*=Hypothetical)

I dont think we have enough evidence to create a formula, but the evels I have them at are:

• Gotenks :
  base - FP PC
  SS - 80% SS3 goku / fat buu
  SS (post) SS3 goku, equal to kid buu
  SS3 - 90% of gohan , above super buu, equal to piccolo buu
  
  Gogeta :
  Base - Majin vegeta
  SS & higher - Weaker than Vegetto , but MUCH , MUCH stronger than every pre BoG being.
  
  Vegetto :
  Base - Fat buu
  SS - 10x buuhan
  SS2 - 20x buuhan
  SS3 - stronger than 0.5% beerus
  
  Goku-han:
  
  Base- 2x buuhan
  SS - 20x buuhan
  SS2 - 30x buuhan
  SS3 - Jut below SS3 Vegetto
  
  Kibitoshin :
  Base - M10 broly LSS / slightly above majin vegeta

[apex_pretador]

My buu arc tier list:

• 1 Super vegetto
  2 (hypothetical SS gogeta)
  3 ------------
  4 Buuhan, buutenks
  5 Ultimate gohan
  (5.5 Buff buu , SS3 gotenks , Piccolo-buu)
  6 Super buu base
  7 Kid buu , SS3 goku , SS gotenks (post)
  8 SS gotenks (Pre) , skinny buu
  9 Fat buu, Mr buu, Good buu
  10 Majin vegeta , SS2 goku , SS2 gohan (training) , kibitoshin
  11 SS2 gohan , Dabura , FP PC , Base gotenks
  12 SS goku, SS vegeta , Kaioshin
  13 SS gohan , piccolo
  14 Cell Jr , SS kids (post)
  15 SS goten, trunks (pre)
  16 Android #18
  17 Yakon , freeza
  18 Base goku, gohan , vegeta
  19 Base kids
  20 Pui pui , krillin , tien

[apex_pretador]

Where do you all have the different Buu incarnations?

• Fat Buu (Against Goku)
  Good Buu
  Grey Buu
  Evil Buu
  Buff Buu
  Pure Buu
  Uub (Enraged)

My buu arc tier list is just one post above yours.

• 4 Buuhan, buutenks
  5 Ultimate gohan
  (5.5 Buff buu , SS3 gotenks , Piccolo-buu)
  6 Super buu base
  7 Kid buu , SS3 goku , SS gotenks (post)
  8 SS gotenks (Pre) , skinny buu
  9 Fat buu, Mr buu, Good buu

BTW, does anyone have a DB Multiverse PL List? Wanted to make one for fun, and am kinda wondering if anyone else did the same (or if anyone follows it).

I have one. I posted it quite some time ago, & if you're interested, i can post it again. I'll also post improved list after tournament progresses further.

Do you all think the Super Saiyan Multipliers from the SEG still apply for Fusions? If so, what do you all think they are? Did Goku not know it would be a different boost when he hypothesized Gotenks' superiority over Buu (if it was)?

Not for gotenks at least. Seeing how base gotenks was confident on beating someone who was above SS vegeta & gohan , he must be superior to SS kids atleast (piccolo didn't try stopping him in tracks too).

SS gotenks is nowhere near 40-50x SS kids. He was weaker than SS3 goku. SS3 goku is NOT 40x stronger than SS trunks / cell jr.

Also, SS3 is not that much of difference for gotenks. He moves up by like 2x max, seeing how SS gotenks wasn't doing bad against super buu & SS3 gotenks didn't have really huge advantage on buu.

Do you all think the Super Saiyan Multipliers from the SEG still apply for Fusions? If so, what do you all think they are? Did Goku not know it would be a different boost when he hypothesized Gotenks' superiority over Buu (if it was)?

I prefer to keep the SEG Super Saiyan boosts and have the Fusion formula be undefined. Since the only thing we know about Fusion is that result is "greater than the sum of both parts" it can be interpreted any way we want. As for the whole "Goku says SS Gotenks would be better than Boo" thing, I don't think he was calculating any formula in his head, like "the Metamorans I know in the afterlife were at a 1, and when they fuse, they become a 10. Goten and Trunks are already at 10, so when the fuse, they should be at a 100." I think his thought process was more like "Goten and Trunks are already pretty strong, so when they fuse, they'll get REALLY strong. Hopefully strong enough to beat Boo."

I agree.

[apex_pretador]

my not so serious power level list:

Freeza arc:

Spoiler:

2nd form freeza : 1,000,001 (Over 1 M) , powerup - 1,000,003 , FP - 1,000,008
Gohan (angry) - 999,999 , 1,000,014
Vegeta - 529,999 , 1,000,020
Piccolo (pre fusion) - 300,000
Piccolo - 1,000,005 , w/o weights - 1,000,010
3rd form freeza - 1,000,015
Freeza - 1,000,030 , 50% - 20,001,000 , post KHH - 19,000,000, post SB - 10,000,000 , 100% - 30,000,000
Goku - 1,000,030 , KK x20 - 20,000,600 , KHH - 20,002,000 , Tired - 1,000,000 , SS - 30,000,001

Trunks arc:

Spoiler:

Piccolo & Vegeta - 1,000,050
Mecha freeza - 1,100,000
King cold - 1,099,999
Future trunks - 5 , SS - 30,000,000
SS goku - 30,000,001

Android arc:

Spoiler:

SS trunks : 30,000,002
SS vegeta : 30,000,005 , post : 20,000,005
SS goku : 30,000,005
#19 : 3,000,000 , post : 13,000,000
Gero : 20,000,006
Piccolo : 20,000,007
#18 : 30,000,010
#17 : 30,000,011
Kamiccolo : 30,000,012
Cell : 30,000,006 , post : 30,000,020
#16 : 30,000,020

Cell arc:

Spoiler:

Semi cell: 31,000,000
Super vegeta : 31,100,000
PC : 32,000,000 , bulk - 33,000,000
Bulk trunks : 32,500,000
Goku (around half) : 32,000,000

Cell games:

Spoiler:

Goku : 35,000,000
Gohan : 35,000,001
Trunks : 33,000,000
Vegeta : 33,000,001
Cell Jr : 33,000,001
Piccolo : 32,999,999
Cell : 35,000,000 (vs goku) , 35,000,005 (vs gohan) , 36,000,000 (Full power) , 36,890,008 (SPC)
SS2 gohan : 37,000,001

Buu arc:

Spoiler:

Goku : SS - 35,000,002 , SS2 - 37,000,002 , SS3 - 39,000,002
Vegeta : SS - 35,000,002 , SS2 - 37,000,000 , post majin - 37,000,002
Gohan : SS - 34,000,001 , SS2 - 36,000,001 , Z sword - SS2 37,000,010
Kids : SS - 32,999,999
Piccolo : 35,000,000
Gotenks : base - 35,000,010 , SS - 37,000,010
Gotenks (post) : base - 37,000,011 , SS - 39,000,011 , SS3 - 41,000,011
Fat buu : 37,000,011
Super buu : 41,000,100 , buutenks - 43,000,000 , buuccolo - 41,000,101 , buuhan - 43,000,001
Gohan : 42,000,000
Super vegetto : 50,000,000
Kid buu : 39,000,003 , FP - 40,000,000

Battle of gods:

Spoiler:

Goku : SS3 - 43,000,000 , SSG : 9,000,000,000 , base - 8,000,000,000 , SS 8,999,999,999
Vegeta SS2 : 41,000,000 , raging - 410,000,000
Super vegetto : 100,000,000
Beerus ~ 1% : 150,000,000
Beerus : 10,500,000,000 (70%)
Whis : 225,000,000,000

GT

Spoiler:

Base kid goku : 40,000,000 , SS3 - 42,000,000
SS vegeta / baby vegeta - 42,000,001 , SBV - 42,000,002 , SBV2 - 42,000,003 , ozaru - 43,000,000
Goku (tail) - SS3 - 42,000,000 , SS4 / ozaru - 43,000,000
Majuub - 42,000,001

Super 17 - 2x #17 = 60,000,022
SS goku - 60,000,022

Shadow dragons
SS4 goku - 60,000,023 , limits surrpassed - 60,000,025
SS4 vegeta - 60,000,025
Syn shenron - 60,000,024
Omega shenron - 61,000,000
SS4 gogeta - 64,000,000

Base goku - 60,800,000

Base goku (w/ dragonballs) - 120,000,000
Base krillin - 150,000,000

100 years later goku : 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

[apex_pretador]

Well, seems I've made a power level list after all these years. It is the first time I try to do something like this, so there might be some mistakes. What do you think?

DRAGON BALL

Spoiler:

Dragon Ball Sagas
First Hunt for the Dragon Balls
Goku - 25 ; Oozaru - 250 ; After Training - 100
Yamcha - 20
Kame-Sennin - 139 ; Full Power - 1,390
Krillin - 10 ; After Training - 50
Bacterian - 12
Ranfan - 7
Nam - 65
Giran - 75
Gyumao - 40
Chi Chi - 10
Red Ribbon Army
Goku - 100 ; Karin Training - 180
Krillin - 80
Tao Pai Pai - 140
General Blue - 95
Colonel Silver - 25
General White - 18
Major Metallitron - 98
Ninja Murasaki - 60
Android 8 - 120
Battle Jacket - 175
Dracula Man - 65
The Invisible Man - 55
Akkuman - 125
Grandpa Gohan - 170
Pilaf's Machine - 77
Piccolo Daimao Appears
Goku - 180 ; Super God Water - 260
Piccolo Daimao - 250 ; Old - 200
Tenshinhan - 180
Kame-Sennin - 139
Tambourine - 170
Drum - 200
Cymbal - 130
Yajirobe - 150
Yamcha - 100
Krillin - 120
Chiaotzu - 98
Man-Wolf - 15
Panputt - 13
Kami - 312
Mr Popo - 1,008
The 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai
Goku - 334 ; Full Power - 416
Piccolo - 322 ; Full Power - 408
Krillin - 206
Yamcha - 177
Tenshinhan - 250
Cyborg Tao - 190
Shen - 300
Chi Chi - 20

List seems fine, just a few issues :
I think you have goku (post) & roshi 21st , a bit too high. Also,how is roshi's power even remotely comparable to raditz?

No increase in goku's strength from 21st TB to RRA fight? Krillin said he became stronger.

No increase for goku from karin to 22nd TB?

Yajirobe was said to be stronger than tien.

Tenshinhan was faster and stronger than 3 year ago goku , who beat daimao.

No increase till BoZ ?

[apex_pretador]

Nope. Goku only said he never met anybody as tough as Yajirobe before.

So, it indicates yajirobe > tien. Goku has fought tien before.

13. Videl should still be stronger than Spopovich. She had the upper hand against him initially and did great damage to him only started losing because her stamina capped out on her dealing with his superhuman vitality side-effect. Also, Videl shouldn't be at 10... I don't her casually outrunning and throwing a blade with enough force to decapitate a T-rex.

i don't see how videl is weaker than 10. A normal human is 5. She has surpassed her father by a good deal, who himself is well above the most top "regular" fighters in the world.

Well the movie just takes place some time after an alternate ending to the Buu Arc and Goku is supposed to have trained since then, so Goku could be stronger, than he was against Kid Buu, explaining Janemba's sub-par performance, even if he's as strong as Kid Buu.

But goku completely utterly humiliated-overkilled fatty janemba. I think super janemba being above kid buu is likely, but not the fat-giant one.

The movie villains represent canon villains:

fat buu ~ fat janemba
Kid buu ~ super janemba
Super buu ~ hirdugarn
Buuhan ~ super hirdugarn

with movie villains being a bit stronger IMO.

Anyways, anything is possible in movieverse. Movieverse goku can be as strong as he wants to, or toie wants to.

[apex_pretador]

So, it indicates yajirobe > Tenshinhan. Goku has fought Tenshinhan before.

"Strength" and "toughness" go hand-in-hand plus Goku's killing of Tamborine and Yajirobe's reaction to it shows he was holding back a great deal against him or possibly used Match-level.

But goku said he NEVER met anyone as tough as him, and he has met tenshinhan before, hell he even fought him with both of them going all out.
So, it is pretty much clear that yajirobe > tien.

On his reaction, it is obvious he freaked out due to it being ki blast. He can't sense energy (no one can, by now).
Obviously, you're gonna freak out if someone who's fighting you, completely vaporizes someone nearby with a huge flash of light & explosion.

i don't see how videl is weaker than 10. A normal human is 5. She has surpassed her father by a good deal, who himself is well above the most top "regular" fighters in the world.

I don't see how she's close to it, and nothing suggests the gap between them is significant especially considering Gohan couldn't tell at first if she was any stronger. Not to mention neither of them did anything a normal human couldn't outside Videl's bukujutsu and minor ki control.

[/quote]
1. She was effortlessly stomping experienced criminals with guns.
2. She was initially having upper hand vs spopovich, who was benefitted due to stamina.
3. Gohan doesn't know EXACTLY how strong is satan. For him to make a statement, the gap must be clear enough.
4. I'm not putting BoDB goku at 10, but rather 15. Maybe that's why you think 10 is too big.
5. Satan himself is a strong person, afterall he did win a tournament by himself.
6. Videl trained hard for one month. Training with gohan himself for a few days. Even the minor ki control can make her a good deal stronger. Ki training >>> physical training. She was already extremely strong for a human before that.

[apex_pretador]

1. Thugs aren't that great of fighters and from what we saw they were willing to fight her empty-handed plus her fights played out more like a bar fight of a drunk vs. a skilled fight. The moment one pulled out a gun on her Gohan had to save her.
2. Spopovich is a nobody.
3. Gohan saw Mr. Satan barely managed to destroy 14 out of 15 tiles and saw him fight seriously against Cell with the latter humoring him for a little while.
4. No, Videl's number has her the same as Chi-Chi as a kid (and maybe a few others) on the guy's list even though she showed literally nothing on par with Chi-Chi effortlessly killing a T-rex.
5. Yeah, a nothing tournament that's level of competition was far below the ones before the revival.
6. Don't care and if she were really that much stronger than her father then she'd realize it herself. After all, she's no fool.

1. Gohan saved her, but she didn't ask for help. She was confident on taking them out. Doesn't matter if thugs aren't great fighters, they are >> a fat dude with a power level of 5, and videl dominated them. Hell, even satan dominated some random dudes who were "using" guns.

2. Spopovich is a majin. A majin who is holding far more strength than he should be. Even without that, he is a huge and powerful guy, like a powerlifter, but still a fighter, who can also fly & do ki blasts.

3. Everyone in the series overestimates satan, and gohan did it too. Anyways, gohan saw this 5 years ago, and him fighting "seriously" against cell wouldn't have been any different than raditz or nappa fighting "seriously" against cell. Most importantly, gauging a difference of like 2-3 units will not be easy for a guy who has his base like 20+ million units without even transforming.

4. I'm not saying that videl >= chichi (1st appearance) , but ChiChi's helmet blade (which actually killed T-rex), also damaged roshi & roshi called it "too fast to dodge". ChiChi (initial appearance) was weaker than yamcha , and that's a fact. She needs to be nothing special, until the 23rd tournament, where she far surpasses regular humans, & high level superhumans like chappa (or maybe even regular Tao)

5. A tournament, which doesn't have the competition at moon and country destroying level is "nothing"? So, it'd put king chappa at 7 at most I guess? The tournament isn't as unbelievable as it used was at 21, 22 & 23rd , but it is still the top competition, featuring the strongest people all around the world.

6. Everyone overestimates satan, & she doesn't even realize that gohan is stronger than satan until after the tournament.

[apex_pretador]

Nope. Goku only said he never met anybody as tough as Yajirobe before.

So, it indicates yajirobe > Tenshinhan. Goku has fought Tenshinhan before.

13. Videl should still be stronger than Spopovich. She had the upper hand against him initially and did great damage to him only started losing because her stamina capped out on her dealing with his superhuman vitality side-effect. Also, Videl shouldn't be at 10... I don't her casually outrunning and throwing a blade with enough force to decapitate a T-rex.

i don't see how videl is weaker than 10. A normal human is 5. She has surpassed her father by a good deal, who himself is well above the most top "regular" fighters in the world.

Well the movie just takes place some time after an alternate ending to the Buu Arc and Goku is supposed to have trained since then, so Goku could be stronger, than he was against Kid Buu, explaining Janemba's sub-par performance, even if he's as strong as Kid Buu.

But goku completely utterly humiliated-overkilled fatty janemba. I think super janemba being above kid buu is likely, but not the fat-giant one.

The movie villains represent canon villains:

fat buu ~ fat janemba
Kid buu ~ super janemba
Super buu ~ hirdugarn
Buuhan ~ super hirdugarn

with movie villains being a bit stronger IMO.

Anyways, anything is possible in movieverse. Movieverse goku can be as strong as he wants to, or toie wants to.

It indicates Yajirobe is tougher, more resilient than Tenshinhan if at all, not stronger.

[apex_pretador]

1. There's no need for the thugs to have a huge power difference compared to the farmer and Videl may not have asked for "help" but the gunman still snuck up behind without her noticing with the gun and likely could have killed her had Gohan no intervened given she only reacted then. Also, Mr. Satan snuck up behind them and he dominated Van Dent BEFORE he could even try to use the gun (he had to pick it up first) because he was simply faster and more skilled then him.

Also, she only dominated one in the manga.

2. Spopovich did get a huge power increase but he barely had any control over his powers as Goku himself noted so he's basically the same weakling that even Mr. Satan could mop the floor with physically.

3. Not really. Raditz and Nappa were still HUGE powerhouses in their own rights plus Gohan never thought highly of Mr. Satan. He was always a weakling in his eyes.

4. There's nothing special about the blade itself... it was clear she had the physical power to make the helmet an extremely lethal weapon and she decapitated the T-rex because she was simply stronger than it... Yamcha and Puar were even shocked by how much she can do despite being scared (not even strong men in real-life can do that). Also, Muten Roshi was caught off-guard with his back turned and it was mostly gag (still impressive nonetheless).

5. No, King Chappa actually has superhuman feats and statements to back up his legitimacy plus I'm not just talking about those tournaments. I'm talking the Tenkaichi Budokai as a whole and back then it used to have the legit strongest of the strongest (especially the 23rd year) participating whereas the one during Mr. Satan's era was obviously more of a commercialized event.

6. Videl couldn't believe any of the overly superhuman stuff Gohan or the others did to begin with since they all seemingly came outta nowhere. If she did anything close to them herself then she'd see the light as well.

1. But she still dominated, not just did she "somehow" beat him. Videl >> thug > random dude with PL 5 is shown.

2. It doesn't matter if he has perfect control over it or not, he still has a high degree of control, like BoDB goku has, with kamehameha. He still has huge power , i.e. , strength, speed & durability. And, he is already a strong martial artist with a lot of muscle strength. Anyways, goku never said he can't control his powers.
Even pre-majin, he'll be a really, really strong guy in real world.

3. The "HUGE" powerhouses, if ever fought cell , would have resulted in exact same performance as satan, that was my point. Satan was still a regular human, the strongest regular human.

4. She's strong, no denying, but her helmet blade was like a sword, cutting through the T-rex easily. She was weaker than yamcha anyways.

5. How can you tell that the tournament in which chappa won, was better than 24th TB competition ? What are chappa's superhuman feats anyways? Statements ? Satan has them as well. Remember that satan's punching machine feat? 139 was the highest record satan set 7 years ago. No one was better than that last time, nor did anyone publicly beat that record in 7 years. Even the 76 competetors who tried in 25th TB could manage 112 AT BEST.
It was just bad that he was up against guys who could all destroy planets (except maybe krillin).

He had quite a great reputation. Only tournaments we see , which were better than 24th TB , were 21st , 22nd & 23rd which had - moon destruction , ring destruction , the island destruction - in the final. How can we even compare them to 24th TB, which had no ki user?

6. Videl didn't realize she was "much" stronger than her dad according to gohan (even before training for TB)
Videl couldn't believe that someone could set score higher than satan on punching machine. Everything points at satan being really, really strong for a regular human.

[apex_pretador]

1. There's no need for the thugs to have a huge power difference compared to the farmer and Videl may not have asked for "help" but the gunman still snuck up behind without her noticing with the gun and likely could have killed her had Gohan no intervened given she only reacted then. Also, Mr. Satan snuck up behind them and he dominated Van Dent BEFORE he could even try to use the gun (he had to pick it up first) because he was simply faster and more skilled then him.

Also, she only dominated one in the manga.

2. Spopovich did get a huge power increase but he barely had any control over his powers as Goku himself noted so he's basically the same weakling that even Mr. Satan could mop the floor with physically.

3. Not really. Raditz and Nappa were still HUGE powerhouses in their own rights plus Gohan never thought highly of Mr. Satan. He was always a weakling in his eyes.

4. There's nothing special about the blade itself... it was clear she had the physical power to make the helmet an extremely lethal weapon and she decapitated the T-rex because she was simply stronger than it... Yamcha and Puar were even shocked by how much she can do despite being scared (not even strong men in real-life can do that). Also, Muten Roshi was caught off-guard with his back turned and it was mostly gag (still impressive nonetheless).

5. No, King Chappa actually has superhuman feats and statements to back up his legitimacy plus I'm not just talking about those tournaments. I'm talking the Tenkaichi Budokai as a whole and back then it used to have the legit strongest of the strongest (especially the 23rd year) participating whereas the one during Mr. Satan's era was obviously more of a commercialized event.

6. Videl couldn't believe any of the overly superhuman stuff Gohan or the others did to begin with since they all seemingly came outta nowhere. If she did anything close to them herself then she'd see the light as well.

1. But she still dominated, not just did she "somehow" beat him. Videl >> thug > random dude with PL 5 is shown.

2. It doesn't matter if he has perfect control over it or not, he still has a high degree of control, like BoDB goku has, with kamehameha. He still has huge power , i.e. , strength, speed & durability. And, he is already a strong martial artist with a lot of muscle strength. Anyways, goku never said he can't control his powers.
Even pre-majin, he'll be a really, really strong guy in real world.

3. The "HUGE" powerhouses, if ever fought cell , would have resulted in exact same performance as satan, that was my point. Satan was still a regular human, the strongest regular human.

4. She's strong, no denying, but her helmet blade was like a sword, cutting through the T-rex easily. She was weaker than yamcha anyways.

5. How can you tell that the tournament in which chappa won, was better than 24th TB competition ? What are chappa's superhuman feats anyways? Statements ? Satan has them as well. Remember that satan's punching machine feat? 139 was the highest record satan set 7 years ago. No one was better than that last time, nor did anyone publicly beat that record in 7 years. Even the 76 competetors who tried in 25th TB could manage 112 AT BEST.
It was just bad that he was up against guys who could all destroy planets (except maybe krillin).

He had quite a great reputation. Only tournaments we see , which were better than 24th TB , were 21st , 22nd & 23rd which had - moon destruction , ring destruction , the island destruction - in the final. How can we even compare them to 24th TB, which had no ki user?

6. Videl didn't realize she was "much" stronger than her dad according to gohan (even before training for TB)
Videl couldn't believe that someone could set score higher than satan on punching machine. Everything points at satan being really, really strong for a regular human.

1. This doesn't disprove she was still in danger of getting shot till Gohan stepped in.

2. Yes, he did:

Chapter: 441 (DBZ 247), P12.2-5
Kuririn: “Th-that bastard, he [fired] a ki wave…though it didn’t have that much ki power…!”
Vegeta: “No…He’d lose if he killed her. He purposefully fired a weak one…”
Goku: “…It seems like he has power far surpassing his own abilities…I don’t get it…What’s going on?...”

3. No they wouldn't... they would at least present an impressive light show instead of just intermediate fighting skills.

4. Doesn't matter if the blade is like a sword... the point is beheading a T-rex is a feat unreachable in real-life and beyond anything Videl has shown.

5. King Chappa went an entire tournament untouched (something of which Mr. Satan couldn't even do), could move so fast that he looked as though he has 8 arms (a move Goku later replicated), and was thought to be a tough opponent for Goku by Yamcha and Jackie Chun during the 22nd Budokai despite seeing Goku fought seriously during Uranai Baba's Palace and knowing he'd get even stronger (they were wrong but only because they underestimated Goku). Though that's pretty easy to look past because Chappa only existed to make Goku look good.

Muten Roshi believed Goku and Krillin wouldn't have made it past the preliminary rounds of the Tenkaichi Budokai without training so likely that also applies to the tournaments proceeding the 21st one and no, none of the stuff you mentioned about Mr. Satan makes him superhuman. That just proves he's a little better than the average fighter.

6. Maybe the gap between Videl and her father isn't really significant... I mean, pretty much the most Gohan ever really says about her is she has talent not that she's massively above the average fighter.

1. But that puts her well above a thug , who himself is well above a random dud with PL 5 , and this is before she even begin training with gohan.

2. Actually, this quotes even solidifies my point. He was "holding" more power than he was capable of, a.k.a. higher power level , but nothing is mentioned about power control. Actually, vegeta saying that he purposefully fired weaker blast means spopovich has good control.

3. They would still get bitchslapped if cell notices them, just like satan.

4. We don't know if videl is capable of it, or not.

5. My argument : Satan's competition was lolworthy to 21st, 22nd & 23rd TB , but not anyone before that , like chappa's TB.
Your argument : Chappa >> Satan, as he went entire tournament untouched.
My argument : Satan >> avg fighter (excluding 21st, 22nd & 23rd TB finalists)
Your argument : Satan = avg fighter
I'm not comparing satan to king chappa directly, or calling him superior to him , but saying that satan is lolworthy for non z fighter humans is unfair. We didn't even know what competition king chapa or earlier champions faced, but only know that 21st, 22nd & 23rd TB were "MORE EXCITING" than this one.

Fact is, satan had the world record for strongest punch EVER for 7 years, and even in the world tournament, no one except Z fighters was ANYWHERE NEAR to him (atleast 76 fighters were nowhere near him).

6. Why so? Why having hard time believing videl's strength?

[apex_pretador]

Shouldn't base gotenks be MUCH stronger than piccolo ?

[apex_pretador]

My improved power level list , in parts

Part 1 : Dragon ball

DB hunt

Spoiler:

kid goku - 15
Bear bandit - 10
Oolong - 4
Yamcha - 14
Hungry goku - 13
Goku (after yamcha battle) - 16
ChiChi - 11
Gyumao - ???
Ozaru goku - 160

21st TB

Spoiler:

Goku - 16
Krillin - 12
Lunch (base) - 2 , SS - 10
____post training____
Krillin's bully - 22
Bacterian - 24
Yamcha - 35
Giran - 27
Nam - 44
Krillin - 44
Goku (no tail) - 48
Goku - 53, weakened - 30, ozaru - 300
Jacky chun - 54

RRA encounter:

Spoiler:

Goku - 56
Ninja - 30
Buyon - 50
Large Robot soldier - 53
#8 - 60
Goku (post rest) - 62
Krillin - 44
General blue - 55
Master roshi - 65 , FP 75
Tao - 75, FP 80
Bora - 58
Goku post karin - 85

Fight with unknowns:

Spoiler:

Krillin - 45
Yamcha - 38
Dracula - 35
Invisible man - 30
Bandage man - 50
Goku - 85
Akkuman - 66
Gohan - 75 (he was able to dominate goku because he knew him every bit, not power advantage, plus dead body advantage)

22nd TB

Spoiler:

Yamcha - 88
Krillin - 100
Chiatzu - 75
Jacky chun - 115 (FP)
Man wolf - 40, man - 8
King chappa - 45
Nam - 44
Goku - 115 (match power) , 120 (Full power)
Tenshinhan - 120
Crane hermit - 99

King piccolo arc:

Spoiler:

Goku , tired - 100, post rest - 125
Tamburine - 116
Yajirobe - 125
King piccolo (old) - 165
Tenshinhan - 120
King piccolo (young) - 190
Goku (post karin) - 198
Drum - 140
Goku (post battle, healed) - 208
Popo - 225
Kami - 270

23rd TB

Spoiler:

Shen (kami) - 255
Kami - 270
Cyborg tao - 148
Yamcha - 163
Krillin - 180
Tenshinhan - 225
Chiatzu - 112
Goku (weighted) - 220
Goku - 320 , Super KHH - over 700
Piccolo - 220 (suppressed) , 311 (true power) , 380 (giant)

[apex_pretador]

Part 2 : Encounter with aliens

Attack of saiyans

Raditz

Spoiler:

Krillin - 206
Tien - 250
Kami - 270
Popo - 230
Yamcha - 177
Roshi - 139
Chiatzu - 140
Yajirobe - 140
Goku - 416
Piccolo - 408
Raditz - 1310
Gohan - 1, scared & angry - 700 , enraged - 1307

Nappa and vegeta

Spoiler:

Gohan - 981, enraged - 2800
Piccolo - FP - 2600
Krillin - FP 1600
Tien - 1680
Yamcha - 1310
Chiatzu - 800
Saibaman - 1200
Nappa - 5800
Vegeta - 17,800
Goku - 8080 , KK 12120
______________
Vegeta - 17,800 , 17,600 , galick gun - 18,400 , post beam struggle - 10,000 , power ball - 6000
Goku - 7900 , KK x2 -15800 , KK x3 - 23,000 (strain) , 6600 (tired) , KK x3 KHH - 19,800 (with strain) , KK x4 25,000 , post beam - 4000
Vegeta - ape 60,000 , tail cut - 5,000 , spirit bomb - 2,000
Gohan - 1000 , hurt - 600, ape - 6,000
Yajirobe - 800

Namek trip

Spoiler:

Krillin - 1650 , potential unlock - 12,000
Gohan - 1400 , potential unlock - 15,000
Cui - 18,200
Vegeta - 24,000 , zenkai - 30,000
Dodoria - 21,000
Zarbon - 22,600, monster - 29,800

Guldo - 8000
Recoome / butta / jeece = 40,000
Nail - 42,000
Ginyu - 120,000
Goku - 90,000 , KK x2 - 180,000 , Ginyu goku - 23,000
Krillin - 24,000
Gohan - 24,000

Vegeta (suppressed) - 200,000

Battle with freeza

Spoiler:

Piccolo - 130,000 , fused - 1,300,000 (weighted) , FP - 1,400,000
Vegeta - 300,000 (suppressed) , 460,000 (FP) , 2,200,000 (zenkai)
Freeza - 530,000 , 1,000,090 , 1,200,000 , 1,300,000
Gohan - 150,000 , enraged - 750,000 , zenkai - 500,000 , super enraged - 1,500,000
Krillin - 120,000

{filler}
Yamcha - 45,000
Tien - 60,000
Chiatzu - 8000
{/filler}

Freeza - 3rd form 1,800,000 , 4th form - 3,000,000 (power up even more vs goku)
Goku - 3,100,000 , battle worn - 3,000,000 , KK x20 - 60,000,000 , KHH - 65,000,000

Freeza 50% - 60,000,000 , KHH tanked - 54,000,000 , Spirit bomb - 40,000,000 , bulked up - 100,000,000
Goku (zenkai) - 4,000,000 , SS - 100,000,000

[apex_pretador]

Part 3 : Android threats

Arrival of trunks

Spoiler:

Mecha freeza - 40,000,000
King cold - 40,000,000

Tien - 100,000
Yamcha - 60,000
Krillin - 150,000

Gohan - 600,000
Piccolo - 3,000,000
Vegeta - 3,000,000

Future trunks - SS - 96,000,000
Goku - 4,400,000 , SS - 110,000,000

Arrival of androids

Spoiler:

SS goku (theoretical max power) - 150,000,000
SS trunks - 125,000,000
SS vegeta - 150,000,000 , battle worn - 145,000,000 , absorbed - 85,000,000 , post BBA - 75,000,000

#19 - 10,000,000 , post goku - 20,000,000 , battle worn - 8,000,000 , post absorption - 68,000,000
Gero - 80,000,000 , absorbed vegeta & piccolo - 88,000,000
Piccolo - 100,000,000

Gohan - 4,800,000 , SS (in HTC) - 120,000,000
Krillin - 800,000
Tien - 750,000
Yamcha - 480,000

#18 - 185,000,000
#17 - 195,000,000 , 190,000,000 (slightly damaged)

Cell - 175,000,000 , post absorption - 240,000,000
Kamiccolo - 182,000,000 (weights) , 200,000,000 (unweighted FP) , 196,000,000 (vs #17) , 190,000,000 (battle worn)

#16 - 241,000,000

The HTC training results

Spoiler:

Semi-perfect cell - 300,000,000 , FP - 370,000,000
Vegeta - 12,000,000 , SS - 300,000,000 , ASS - 420,000,000
Trunks - 11,600,000 , SS - 290,000,000 , ASS - 406,000,000 , USS - 580,000,000

Perfect cell - 470,000,000 , bulk-up - 600,000,000
Goku - (around half) - 450,000,000

Let's play cell games

Spoiler:

Mr satan - 12

Vegeta - 13,000,000 , SS (less strain) - 520,000,000
Trunks - 13,000,000 , SS (less strain) - 520,000,000
Cell Jr - 550,000,000
Goku - 16,000,000 , SS (FP) - 800,000,000 , tired - 400,000,000
Piccolo - 480,000,000
Gohan - 17,600,000 , SS - 880,000,000 , SS2 - 1,760,000,000 , one arm - 1,320,000,000, MAD/ Father son kamehameha - 1,900,000,000

Cell - 810,000,000 (vs goku) , 900,000,000 (vs gohan) , 1,150,000,000 (Full power) , 1,600,000,000 (bulk)
SPC - 1,680,000,000

Future of trunks:

Spoiler:

Goku (death) - 4,800,000 , SS - 120,000,000
Gohan - 2,600,000 , SS - 65,000,000 (last time #17 wasn't using half power)
Gohan (one arm) - 3,800,000 , SS - 95,000,000
Kid trunks - 140,000 , SS - 3,500,000
#17 (expected) - 90,000,000 , actual - 160,000,000 , vs trunks - 140,000,000
#18 - 150,000,000
3 years later : (pre time-travel)
Trunks - 3,600,000 , SS - 90,000,000

MULTIPLIERS:

- SS = 25x base
- ASS = 35x base
- MSS / FPSS = 50x base
- USS = 50x base
- SS2 = 100x base
- Namekian fusion = piccolo x 2

[apex_pretador]

Part 4 : Majin buu

Tournament

Spoiler:

Gohan - 13,000,000 , SS - 650,000,000
Goten - 10,000,000 , SS - 500,000,000
Trunks - 10,200,000 , SS - 510,000,000
Vegeta - 16,800,000 , SS - 840,000,000
Piccolo - 680,000,000

_____post training__________

Goten / trunks - 12,000,000 , SS - 600,000,000
Gohan - 15,000,000 , SS - 750,000,000 , SS2 - 1,500,000,000
Vegeta - 17,200,000 , SS - 860,000,000 , SS2 - 1,720,000,000
Goku - 21,000,000 , SS - 1,050,000,000 , SS2 - 2,100,000,000 , SS3 - 8,400,000,000
Piccolo - 760,000,000

Kaioshin - 900,000,000
Dabura - 1,300,000,000
Majin vegeta - 2,100,000,000 (SS2)

Fat buu - 3,200,000,000 , 6,000,000,000 (enraged) , 3,400,000,000 (good buu)
Skinny buu - 6,000,000,000

Satan - 12
Videl - 12 , post training - 14
Majin spopovich - 20

______babidi's ship game__________

kaioshin - 900,000,000
Kaioshin (after seeing dabura , before dabura's death) - 1200
Pui pui - 18,200
Yakon - 30,000,000
Dabura - 1,300,000,000

Babidi - 120,000

Fusion-HAAA

Spoiler:

Gotenks - 800,000,000 , SS - 2,400,000,000
Super buu - 10,000,000,000 (initial) , 20,000,000,000 (Full power)

Post HTC :
Gotenks - 2,500,000,000 , SS - 7,500,000,000 , SS3 - 22,500,000,000

Gohan - 25,000,000,000 (mystic)

Super buu :
base - 20,000,000,000
Gotenks & piccolo - 42,260,000,000
Kids & piccolo - 20,790,000,000
Gohan - 45,790,000,000

Kibitoshin - 2,800,000,000
Vegetto - 400,000,000,000 (SS)

Battle against the oldest kid ever

Spoiler:

Buff buu - 25,600,000,000
Goku - 8,400,000,000 (SS3)
Vegeta (SS2) - 2,100,000,000
Mr buu - 3,400,000,000 (he is much weaker than kid buu seeing how much damage he took)
Kid buu - 8,200,000,000 , FP - 9,400,000,000 (pushing genki dama)

MULTIPLIERS:

- Potara (for kibitoshin & goku-han) = (A + B) x 3
- Buu absorptions = Buu + Absorbed power
- SS3 = 4x SS2 = 400x base (goku only)

[apex_pretador]

- I just always thought since Tenshinhan trained, he could reach Krillin's power. But I guess what Toriyama says goes, and I'll have Krillin stronger. But Tenshinhan's very close, imo

Limits?

Shouldn't base gotenks be MUCH stronger than piccolo ?

Since I have SSJ Gotenks post = SSJ3 Goku, and since I use a 50x SSJ for fusions as well, that would make SSJ3 Goku over 50x Piccolo as well, which would make Goku almost 4x stronger than Piccolo in SSJ, and I don't think the gap is that big.

I just worked out no multiplier for gotenks, and I used these for him :
- Official multipliers for goku
- Base gotenks (pre) > piccolo
- SS gotenks (pre) between majin vegeta & fat buu

and, SS turned out to be 3x for him, & even post RoSaT , 3x worked perfectly for me. (you can check out my numbers in the 4 posts above this).

Atleast post HTC gotenks must be a lot superior to piccolo, as he was like gotenks is the only hope (even before knowing he can go SS)