The difference between first form freeza & vegeta must be larger.
Piccolo said there were 3 large ki's & one incredibly absturdly huge ki of freeza. Freeza said he is a dinosaur compared to 3 ants. Vegeta said "they have a slight chance" if they all work together.
I remembered something about this.Vegeta began to power up when they clash with Freeza,with his Power Level increasing causing Freeza's scouter to explode.When Piccolo sensed Freeza and comment about his huge ki,it was when Gohan and Kuririn are still making the wish and Vegeta is still sleeping.And when Freeza said they were just ants to him,it was also when he just arrived where Vegeta still hasn't powered up.So i'll put Vegeta back at 500,000.And also,Vegeta didn't say they only have a slight chance.Not to mention,Vegeta was so confident that he even let Freeza transform.
Picolo arrived on namek AFTER vegeta & co started to fight freeza / after namek DB's turned to stone.
Letting FORCING freeza transform is idiotic, more so than letting cell transform.
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P9.1-5
Vegeta: “We can win! If the 3 of us fight together, we’ll be able to win somehow or another! [ ] It seems that even Freeza hasn’t noticed…These two’s battle power is steadily rising…The squirt in particular hides so much inner strength that he doesn’t even know it himself…”
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
I remembered something about this.Vegeta began to power up when they clash with Freeza,with his Power Level increasing causing Freeza's scouter to explode.When Piccolo sensed Freeza and comment about his huge ki,it was when Gohan and Kuririn are still making the wish and Vegeta is still sleeping.And when Freeza said they were just ants to him,it was also when he just arrived where Vegeta still hasn't powered up.So i'll put Vegeta back at 500,000.And also,Vegeta didn't say they only have a slight chance.Not to mention,Vegeta was so confident that he even let Freeza transform.
Picolo arrived on namek AFTER vegeta & co started to fight freeza / after namek DB's turned to stone.
No,Piccolo arrived on Namek even before Freeza arrives.The part where Vegeta started to powerup against Freeza was right after the part where Piccolo merged with Nail.
Freeza was also suppressed at that point.
Spoiler:
Also, look at the difference in expressions of vegeta an freeza.
On transformation, vegeta was a fool into forcing a stronger opponent into transforming. However, you were correct about the part of vegeta being powered down.
ahill1 wrote:What do you think of these power levels?
Namek
Kuririn 285,000
Son Gohan 315,000
~ Enranged (vs 2nd form Freeza) 1,000,000
~ Zenkai 900,000
~ Enranged (vs 3rd form Freeza) 1,600,000
~ Masenko 1,800,000
Krilllin is way too high man. Even gohan is too high. They were implied to be MUCH weaker than suppressed first form freeza.
Piccolo (weighted) 270,000
~ W/o weights 324,000
~ Post fusion with Nail (weighted) 1,250,000
~ W/o weights 1,500,000
Piccolo was shitting himself at suppressed first form freeza. Nail flat-out told him that he'll die, and piccolo knew it.
Vegeta 480,000
~ Zenkai 2,400,000
Seems OK
Freeza (1st form) 530,000
~ 2nd form (initial) 1,060,000
~ 2nd form (vs Gohan) 1,200,000
~ 2nd form (full power) 1,400,000
~ 3rd form 1,850,000
~ Final form (initial) 2,400,000
~ Final form (speedup) 3,250,000
~ 50% 70,000,000
~ 70% 98,000,000
~ 100% 140,000,000
Initial final form is too low IMO.
Son Goku 3,000,000
~ Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 60,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 150,000,000
OK
Trunks saga
King Cold 120,000,000
Too high, way too high.
Future Trunks 4,800,000
~ Super Saiyan 240,000,000
Wayyyyyy too high. He was directly compared equated to Namek goku.[.quote]
Son Goku 5,600,000
~ Super Saiyan 280,000,000[/quote] Way too high. Goku didn't even have the time to learn techniques. At best, he might've trained a little. Also, no power-up was noted by gohan.
Zombie wrote:Can I get feedback for these numbers?
Spoiler:
Cell [Imperfect form]: 270,000,000
-- After energy absorptions: 480,000,000
-- Semi-Perfect form: 675,000,000
-- Full power: 800,000,000
-- Perfect form: 925,000,000
-- Power up [vs Vegeta|Trunks]: 1,400,000,000
-- Power weighted form: 2,100,000,000
Future Trunks: 13,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 650,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Grade 2: 950,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Grade 3: 1,600,000,000
Vegeta: 14,000,000
-- Super Saiyan: 700,000,000
-- Super Saiyan Grade 2: 1,000,000,000
Artificial Human No. 16: 480,000,000
Thanks for any feedback.
Seems legit.
Interestingly, my numbers put piccolo in cell games at EXACT same value, 480 million , which you used for #16.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:
Why does it matter ? That just means that Vegeta [Suppressed] < 1st Form Freeza [Suppressed].And Vegeta [Full Power] < 1st Form Freeza [Full Power]
never mind.
Anyways , on next topic:
Anyways.I noticed that most of you have Piccolo merging with Kami a 2x boost.But most of you have Piccolo when he arrived on Namek lower than 300,000.Why is that ? Nail states that if Piccolo and Kami become one again.They can win against 1st Form Freeza.
Chapter: 295 (DBZ 101), P1.4, P2.1-5, P3.1
Nail: “I-I’m astonished…I don’t know what kind of training you’ve done, but you’ve acquired unbelievable power…Still, it’s unfortunate…If you had only returned to the original, single Namekian you were, you might have been able to defeat even Freeza…”
Piccolo: “Are you saying that if I merged with God once again, my power would even surpass Freeza!?”
Nail: “Th-that’s right…
I'm planning to change my list because of this.I used to have Piccolo at 250,000.
Piccolo [Arrival on Namek] : 350,000 --- Merged with Kami [Hypothetical] : 700,000
Freeza [First Form] : 530,000
And also.
Chapter: 265 (DBZ 71), P3.4-5
Context: the Great Elder reads Kuririn’s mind and learns of God and Piccolo.
Great Elder: “Hmf! He split in two, long ago…after evil entered into him! How foolish… He diminished by half the genius power with which he was gifted at birth! If he had come back together as one, he might not have had to die…”
So my new list for Saiyan Arc Piccolo and Nappa would be.
Piccolo : 2,500 --- Merged with Kami [Hypothetical] : 5,000
I don't think we can use the same boost for piccolo & Nailccolo. Nail-piccolo in android arc was one million times stronger than Kami. I think the closer the powers, the bigger the boost.
Goku-gohan potara merging was implied to be about 2x boost. He was said to "MAY not need super saiyan where gohan was about 2-3 thousand times stronger than base goku, and kibitoshin seems like 2-3x boost.
Also, if you use 2x, then you must use it on BoZ piccolo, who was below 1000, which will result in below 2000 power level for son of kataz. Even better, use the 2x for DAIMAO and Kami. Daimao was like what? 200 in young age, and kami was close to 300 when he trained goku. I think at best, kami can be about 500 or so in his young age.
At best that would put him at 1400 in that case, around raditz level. I don't think that counts as being able to handle saiyans. Same for namek arc kamiccolo. I think 4x boost works better for saiyan & namek arcs.
(2600 + 300) x 4 = 11,600
(150,000 + 300) x 4 = 601,200
However, android arc is different case, due to nail's presence and power gap:
(100 M) x 2 = 200 M or wherever your numbers put him at.
Oh wait, did I mention that piccolo was shitting himself at the power of suppressed dinosaur Freeza.
Nappa : 4,000 --- ''Calmed Down'' : 7,000
I'd say Nappa was 4,000 against the Z Fighters.There's implication that put Nappa below 5,000 but there is also many implications that put him close to Goku.So to clear this mess.I'd follow what Toriyma said in an interview.Nappa probably got stronger while fighting Goku.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables.
Thoughts ?
But nappa was never pushed to limits against Z fighters:
Tien - He cleanly rips his arm. He TANKS KIKOHO.
Chiaotzu - He tanks blowing up, with a ki shield.
Gohan - He got kicked around ONCE when he was off-guard. He just punched away the strongest blast from gohan at 2800 by a mere punch, and his hand only slightly stung.
Piccolo - The strategist of U7 found him open to attacks when he's off-guard, and punched him when he was focused on someone else. Later, he uses almost all his ki in a last-ditch effort in a blast on nappa, and it barely burnt his back slightly. Got OH-KO'd by nappa.
Krillin - He nearly killed him with a keinzan. He dodged him once, hit him once when focused on someone else and off-guard. He used his full powered scattering attack and nappa flat-out tanked. Got nearly killed with a ki blast not even hitting him, but landing nearby.
Not to mention that nappa was never serious the entire time, and just toying around with them, and he was ealing with multiple enemies at once.
GOKU : At first, goku makes him look like fool, but later, nappa manages to get calm and serious, and get a close fight out of goku. He also worried him with his full-powered attack.
Nappa could one-shot any of Z fightrs but goku couldn't one-shot nappa.
ahill1 wrote:What gap do you guys have between Vegeta SSJ (Androids saga) and Trunks SSJ (Androids saga)?
vegeta is 120 % of trunks i.e. 20% higher.
IF vegeta is 6, trunks is 5. Vegeta can one-shot him with a galick gun or BBA.
This Gap decreases to about 5%-10% after 1st rosat, and ~0% after second rosat.
I think a 20% gap is way too much...
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.3-4
Tenshinhan: “Th-this is the man who took down Freeza…And he was helpless before these androids…I’ll be frank…! No matter how strong Goku may be, he shouldn’t be that different from Trunks or Vegeta…”
Accroding to Tenshinhan, the three SSJ are on the same range of power.
I won't take tien's comment to face value. Given how manga implies that vegeta is significantly more powerful than trunks pre rosat, post rosat he's still more powerful but not significantly, and post 2nd rosat, he's equal to trunks.
The same guy was shitting himself at sick SS goku, and given how it is implied that Freeza is weaker than only super saiyans, not piccolo, and he sensed yadrat goku & SS future trunks 3 yrs back. Piccolo flat-out stated that FP goku >>> Sick goku.
Trunks was incredibly impressed by vegeta's performance against #18, and implied that he can't put anything even close to that against even future androids. Vegeta lol'd at the thought of trunks & piccolo facing these androids.
I also have trunks 25% higher than piccolo pre merging. Post merging, piccolo is freaking 60% higher than trunks and about 33% higher than vegeta/goku.
Zombie wrote:Can I have numbers for these guys?
SSJ Trunks
-- Start of the Buu arc: 580
-- 25th TB: 620
-- Post RoSaT: 640
SSJ Goten
-- Start of the Buu arc: 550 = cell jr
-- 25th TB: 600
-- Post RoSaT: 630
Piccolo
-- Start of the Buu arc: between 600 and 750
-- 25th TB: ~= SS gohan (25th TB) = 750
^^^^
in millions
and for reference , goku SS ~= 1050 million at 25th TB , and 800 million at cell games
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:.Where do you guys put these characters at ?
SSJ Gohan :750
Dabra :1300
Perfect Cell :1200 The first being in the manga to break 1 billion barier, and exactly 10 times of fully powered freeza
Semi-SS2 gohan - 1200 million
In millions, and I have perfect cell exactly 10 times stronger than FP freeza, and kid buu around 9-10x cell.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:Kaioshin was about 80x stronger than Kibito at best.So by using your logic.Namek Arc Piccolo and Kami who's the gap is more than 1,000 times and being a 2x boost will work as well.Guru states that Katatz's child shouldn't be defeated by a Saiyan and assume a Super Saiyan killed him.So Katatz's child should be way stronger than any regular Saiyan.Which range from around 1,000 to 30,000. Vegeta who's power level was around 30,000 didn't think he was a Super Saiyan until he received another zenkai.The strongest guy we got who is assumed to be a Super Saiyan is the 60,000 Goku that fought Recoome/Burta/Jheese.So Katatz's child should be around 50,000.
I'm not equating potara to remerging. Goku was million times strogner than satan, & it was implied that potara will not give him any noticeable boost.
Piccolo was million times stronger than kami, and he got over 2x boost.
Re-merging is better than potara IMO. Gohan was thousand times stronger than goku (base) and 2x boost was implied. A thousand times gap should give him 4x boost by similar logic, good enough to take out first form freeza, especially with his skill of a warrior namek.
On son of katatz, if we give him the same boost as vegetto got, then he comes out to be stronger than any saiyan not called a super saiyan. (only on daimao and kami, not ma jr & Kami)
1. The ki blast that Piccolo fired to Nappa actually hurt him and make him mad.It should be noted that Nappa's can't raise nor lower his ki unlike the earthlings.2nd Form Freeza who was more than 2x stronger than Vegeta was unfazed by Vegeta's blast when he wasn't looking at him.If Nappa's 7,000 right off the bat.He should be able to do the same,but he didn't.So Piccolo being 2,500 and Nappa being 4,000 works fine.
I don't think nappa was ever 4000. He thought that others could help 5000+ goku to beat him, so he must be closer to 6000 than 7000.
The ki blast did no damage at all. It just barely hurt him, more like a bad irritation. Nappa also tanked a full powered kikoho from tien. He punched away full powered (Masenko?) from gohan, with his arm just stung a little.
Freeza has more durable skin than saiyans, so the blast from vegeta didn't burn his back a little. NOTE: I ALSO HAVE HIM 3x VEGETA (400,000 TO 1,200,000
2.Goku absolutely destroys Nappa and says he's nothing special.Why would he say that if Nappa is close to him ? Goku can sense ki,so he should know it.
When nappa wasn't fighting properly with his mind. When nappa got calmed down, he got better performance. Also, goku vs "mad" nappa is something possible with a 6000 vs 8000 easily.
3. Nappa was scared by Goku's 5,000 Battle Power.You might argue that Nappa thinks that Goku's ki is suppressed.But remember that Nappa who saw how Raditz was killed thought that the suppressed Battle Power for Piccolo,Vegeta and Gohan was their full power.
Nappa was "shocked" at 5000 goku just like vegeta was at 8000 goku, unless you believe that vegeta was scared of 8000 as well. Nappa & vegeta thought that three guys below 3000 can help a 5000+ goku to win, which isn't possible against vegeta. So, it is implied that they could help goku against nappa to win maybe. So, nappa is somewhat superior to 5000.
In all.Nappa was 4,000 against the Z Fighters and 1st half of his fight with Goku.But for some reason,he suddenly becomes in the same realm as Goku.Vegeta made a big deal about him being to control his power and brag it to Kewi so Nappa shouldn't be able to raise his ki.To clear this mess.I need to follow Toriyama's interview years ago.About saiyans getting rapidly stronger as they fight strong opponents.
The only "low showing" of nappa was getting his back burnt a bit by the last ditch effort of the strongest member of the team, and getting irritated, while he was not even trying in the entire fight and wasn't serious.
In first half fight against goku, he got stomped, but it doesn't need to be a 2x gap because a 25% gap works fine. Even in second half against goku, he only worried him with his best attack, like cui worried vegeta ("See there - lord freeza"
"My speed increased as well, I dodged it")
apex_pretador wrote:I'm not equating potara to remerging. Goku was million times strogner than satan, & it was implied that potara will not give him any noticeable boost.
Piccolo was million times stronger than kami, and he got over 2x boost.
Re-merging is better than potara IMO. Gohan was thousand times stronger than goku (base) and 2x boost was implied. A thousand times gap should give him 4x boost by similar logic, good enough to take out first form freeza, especially with his skill of a warrior namek.
On son of katatz, if we give him the same boost as vegetto got, then he comes out to be stronger than any saiyan not called a super saiyan. (only on daimao and kami, not ma jr & Kami)
What are you trying to say here ? What's the difference between the two.Does my theory contradict your theory ?
I'm just saying that we must not apply the same 2x boost to pre-nail piccolo & pre-kami piccolo for remerging because pre-nail piccolo can't be that close to first form freeza.
(Also, nappa discussion is boring)
On the other hand.Where do you guys put these people at ?
Vegeta [Arrivial on Namek] : 16,000Cui thought he was a joke to his 18,000 and vegeta implied that pre-saiyan saga vegeta was weaker than cui's 18,000
-- Full Power : 24000 obviously
-- Post Zenkai : 29,600
Kewi : 18,200
Dodoria : 21,000 , he didn't feel surpassed till vegeta rose above 22,000
Zarbon : 22,600 , significantly above dodoria, good enough to put a fight against vegeta but ultimately die
-- Transformed : 29,500 , weaker than post zenkai vegeta, but very close.
Goku - 15, post Yamcha - 16 , Tailless - 14.5 , hungry - 12
Bulma - 4
Yamcha - 13
Oolong - 2
Bear bandit - 9
Average human - 4-5
ChiChi - 11
Rabbit gang thugs - 6.6
Pilaf & co - 3
Roshi buff Kamehameha (suppressed) - 80
Ozaru goku - 160
21st TB arc
Spoiler:
Goku - 15
Krillin - 12.5
______tournament______
Yamcha - 24 (he thought he could win)
Oorin temple fighter / krillin's bully - 19 (incredibly above pre roshi krillin)
Gilan - 22 (troubled goku, but couldn't hurt him)
Krillin - 30 (powered up incredibly)
Goku - 32 (tailless, stronger than krillin) , 38 (tail regrown) , 20 (hurt) , 200 (Ozaru)
Nam - 30 (Gave goku difficulty, but couldn't put him down with strongest attack he had)
Jacky chun - 36 (holding back),buff kamehameha - 100
Red ribbon army arc
Spoiler:
Krillin - 30
General blue - 32
Metallitron - 32
Goku - 40
Murasaki - 20
#8 - 44
Bora - 42
Tao pai pai (Slacked off) - 55
Karin (suppressed) - 60
Goku - 66
Baba arc:
Spoiler:
Goku (not FP) - 60
Dracula man - 20
Krillin - 30
Yamcha - 25
Invisible man - 20
Mummy man - 40
Roshi (FP, slacked off) - 46
Akkuman - 49
Gohan - 53
22nd TB arc
Spoiler:
King chappa - 35 (won a tournament untouched)
Yamcha - 60 (thought he can win)
Krillin - 66 (stronger than Yamcha)
Pamput - 35 (21st TB top level)
Man wolf - 10 (nothing special to BoDB heroes) , 25 (trained)
Chiaotzu - 53 (weaker than slacked off tao pai pai)
Crane hermit - 70 (strong enough to kill chiaotzu easily)
Master roshi - match power - 75 , FP - 93
Tien - 80, FP - 98
Goku - match level 88, FP - 100
Piccolo Daimao arc:
Spoiler:
Tambourine - 80
Goku (Zenkai) - 105
Yajirobe - 99
Old Piccolo - 90 (weighted) , 120 (unweighted) , 151 (full power)
Tien (Mafuba training) - 114 (was ready to fight daimao)
Karin - 90
Drum - 130 (weaker than old daimao)
Young piccolo (Full power) - 205
Goku (post god water) - 210
23rd TB arc:
Spoiler:
Goku - 215 (zenkai)
Popo - 240 (better fighter than goku, and thin air)
Kami - 320
______tournament________
Chappa - 50 (powered up)
ChiChi - 75 (heavily implied to be a lot weaker than roshi)
Roshi - 124 (Random powerup out of nowhere) (I know he's not mentioned training)
Chiaotzu - 100 (climbed karin tower)
Yamcha - 180
Krillin - 190
Tien - 200 (vs Tao) , 230
Shen (kami) - 290 (too weak body, but still on entirely different level than tien)
Tao pai pai - 140 (much, much, much stronger than 22nd TB tien)
Yajirobe - 130
DanielSSJ wrote:I don't see how a Kaioken x10 granting a 3x boost is logical. Or a Kaioken x20 granting a 6x boost, for that matter.
Kaioken provides uneven boosts. In the battle against vegeta, it was made pretty clear that KK x2 > KK, and goku (namek) , who was 85,000 tops, was able to reach 180,000 with only Kaioken (not even KK x2). In the battle against vegeta, Kaioken was providing boost directly proportional to his own battle power. (also, this is no multiplier list)
Hugo Boss wrote:Both the situations were a kaioken x2. Ginyu almost guessed Goku's power right, because he was at 90,000 at that moment. When he fought Nappa and Vegeta his kaioken was at 16,000.
Ginyu said he maxed out at 85,000 (before using kaioken), and goku used kaioken, not kaioken x2.
In fight vs saiyans :
Goku uses kaioken against nappa, and kaioken x2, x3 against vegeta, and also said that he couldn't do anything even with kaioken x2.
Kaio heavily implied that KK x2 was the limit for goku. It implies that it is above the basic kaioken.
Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.1
Context: after Goku tells Ginyu to watch his scouter
Ginyu: "Kukkukku... I don't have to look at my scouter. You should most likely be able to raise it up to 85,000."
Chapter: 284 (DBZ 90), P14.6-7
Context: as Goku starts using the Kaio-Ken
Ginyu: "Ni... 90,000...?! 100,000... 110,000... I'm... impossible... it can't be... It's st... still rising...!"
I know it is really confusing, that's why I made a no-multiplier list.
Freeza (100%) : 140,000,000
Goku SSJ (Namek) : 150,000,000
Future Gohan SSJ [1 arm] : 180,000,000 (50% of future #17)
Future Trunks SSJ [Mecha saga] : 200,000,000
Son Goku [Mecha saga] : 220,000,000
Piccolo [Androids saga] : 250,000,000
Future Trunks SSJ [Androids saga] : 300,000,000
Son Goku SSJ [Androids saga] : 330,000,000
Vegeta SSJ [Androids saga] : 340,000,000
#18 : 450,000,000 (future: 330,000,000)
#17 : 500,000,000 (future: 360,000,000)
Sounds good?
Seeing how you are basing these numbers upon the power of namek SS goku (you obviously need a base), here are the issues:
- Future trunks (trunks arc) = Namek goku. Gohan flat-out said they ARE SAME, and Yadrat goku wasn't stated to have powered up this much from Namek. All Yadrat goku did was learning IT, and controlling SS transformation. He didn't train as much to increase power. His gains, IF ANY, must not be comparable to his 3 yr exceptionally hard training with piccolo & gohan.
- Future gohan should be lower due to above argument, and future trunks was said to be about equal to F gohan pre death. I think they both must be very close to Namek goku.
- Future #17 can't be 2x one-armed gohan. 1-arm gohan was confident in beating 50% #17 and #18 at the same time without his other arm.
- Future trunks (android arc) can't be that close to future androids.
- Kami said that even super saiyans, who can destroy freeza and still couldn't fight android 17. So it is implied that piccolo must be below Freeza.
Zombie wrote:Freeza was nowhere near that close to SSJ Goku.
120 million fits perfectly.
freeza was able to straight up fly through KHH from SS goku with his forcefield. He seemingly had the upperhand in their fight before porunga appeared. Only after he got tired, did goku completely stomp him & call him worthless opponent.
Desassina wrote:Hey guys, I know this is a heated topic, but I was trying to develop some Majin Buu numbers based on his transformations, which are complicated, so without further ado:
Merely multiplication based, how do you explain Super Buu being stronger than Fat Buu with Evil Buu having split from the latter? I made Good Buu the hypothetical Kid Buu with just Dai Kaioshin absorbed.
My numbers based on kid buu (Kid buu is a 15)
Kid buu = 15
SS3 goku = 14
Fat buu (pre) = 8 enraged = 10 (he can tap onto more power from kid buu's reserve when he's angered and the hold of dai kaioshin on him gets loosened)
Zombie wrote:Freeza was nowhere near that close to SSJ Goku.
120 million fits perfectly.
freeza was able to straight up fly through KHH from SS goku with his forcefield. He seemingly had the upperhand in their fight before porunga appeared. Only after he got tired, did goku completely stomp him & call him worthless opponent.
Freeza didn't fly through it. He flew around it and hit Goku while he was distracted. And Goku was never at a disadvantage in the manga's version of the fight. The best you could say is that Freeza was even with Goku, and even that is suspect.
Before porunga's appearance, goku got one hit on freeza , while freeza got like 6-7 hits, and he did flew against KameHameHa even if it was only for a while, and not completely.
I guess you could argue that goku was holding back, but he was enraged, to avenge krillin, and he is shown screamingly with wide-open mouth several times in the battle. Also, the hit freeza landed after flying through/around KHH was supposed to get the job done.
And this is not even including the power loss from SS goku's beatdown freeza got when he was at 50% of his power,
DanielSSJ wrote:If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger
man you are putting too much stock into multipliers. Super buu can't be 8x SS gotenks, going by the performance. Gotenks SS did better against super buu than buu did against SS3 gotenks or gohan. He did MUCH better against buu than SS2 vegeta against kid buu. He did better than what cell did against SS2 gohan, better than recoome/ butta/ jeece did against goku, better than #16 did against semi-cell, and I'm sure you'd agree that none of these were even 5x gaps, let alone 8x.
- Future trunks (trunks arc) = Namek goku. Gohan flat-out said they ARE SAME, and Yadrat goku wasn't stated to have powered up this much from Namek. All Yadrat goku did was learning IT, and controlling SS transformation. He didn't train as much to increase power. His gains, IF ANY, must not be comparable to his 3 yr exceptionally hard training with piccolo & gohan.
No... Here is the quote:
Chapter: 331 (DBZ 137), P13.3
Gohan: “It’s fa-father!!! It’s the same ki as father back then!!”
Note: Gohan says it’s the ‘same ki’ (onaji ki), rather than the ‘same amount of ki’ (onaji gurai no ki).
As Herms pointed out, it doesn't have to necessarily mean that Trunks (Mecha saga) was as strong as Goku. It can means that their Ki feels the same, even more when the SSJ was just introduced in the series. Besides this, Trunks encouraged Mecha Freeza and his father to go at him at full power, something he would not do if he was not 100% sure that he could beat Mecha Freeza. Hell, he even said (at least in Viz version) he could take down Mecha Freeza in seconds. Gohan's quote doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku.
Herms' line is validating my point. The ki is "same" which means it is not just "similar". Herms pointing that out only indicates that amount isn't the only thing that is same (like say freeza vs goku), but the feeling , the lack of evilness are also same.
Gohan didn't say that goku became stronger since Namek, or am I missing something? No way can he ignore THAT MUCH change in goku's power. You are giving post Yadrat goku an increase in power comparable to the 3 years training where he trained exceptionally hard with piccolo and gohan. Yadrat goku lacked time to even learn techniques.
Trunks (mecha saga) = Namek goku (In power, feeling of ki, arrangement of ki, lack of evilness)
- Future gohan should be lower due to above argument, and future trunks was said to be about equal to F gohan pre death. I think they both must be very close to Namek goku.
See the point above. Gohan's comment doesn't have to mean Trunks = Goku, even more when it's implied a big gap between Trunks and Mecha Freeza.
Chapter: 330 (DBZ 136), P9.7
Yamcha: “So this guy called ‘Fr…Freeza’ has such terrible…ab…absurdly large ki…?”
Gohan: “This isn’t it…he gets much, much stronger…!”
So, SS future trunks >>> Mecha freeza (on earth) <<< namek 100% freeza
How Namek freeza and trunks compare to each other, we have no idea.
[/quote]
- Future #17 can't be 2x one-armed gohan. 1-arm gohan was confident in beating 50% #17 and #18 at the same time without his other arm.
No, like Future #17 said, he used less than half of his power in his last fight against Gohan, not half of his power. I have #17 using 40%, so Gohan is decently above him according to my numbers. Besides this, Gohan cannot be that much above ~40% #17, even more when he was not that confident and had the feel he was going to die.
[/quote]OK.
- Future trunks (android arc) can't be that close to future androids.
Yes, he can:
Chapter: 355 (DBZ 161), P8.5
Trunks: “They’re also somewhat different from the androids I know…They weren’t as outrageously strong as this…Even I could fight them fairly well…”
And before he even knew about present androids being > Future androids, he was scared to even let vegeta fight them, who was stronger than him. He was "SHOCKED'' visibly that vegeta was doing that good against the "weaker" one of the androids even before knowing that they are stronger than future androids. Chapter: 351 (DBZ 157), P7.1
Trunks: “We absolutely can’t win unless we have Goku’s help and everyone fights together!”
So, in other words, a super saiyan significantly stronger than trunks was implied to be weak to fight androids before trunks even knew they were stronger in this timeline.
- Kami said that even super saiyans, who can destroy freeza and still couldn't fight android 17. So it is implied that piccolo must be below Freeza.
That doesn't mean Piccolo is below Freeza, though. By this logic, Captain Ginyu should be stronger than post Nail fusion Piccolo and post-Zenkai Vegeta, because Freeza was surprised that Goku base is even above Captain Ginyu.
what to say freeza said "only" goku is stronger than ginyu? He thought that ginyu was one of the strongest beings in the universe, besides himself & Cold, and he just saw four people stronger than him, so that's why he was surprised, and goku is the only one of his opponents who prefers to talk, as gohan , vegeta & piccolo prefer to get straight to point.
Chapter: 366 (DBZ 172), P4.5-6 Kuririn:“Goku, tell us—This thing’s even more terrible than Freeza. Are you scared by that? Or excited?” Goku:“…Both…”
As you can see, Kuririn is still bring up Freeza in front of Goku and freaking Kamiccolo.
Yeah, which means that freeza isn't absolute joke which your numbers seem to indicate.
See how krillin brings up vegeta for comparing suppressed first form freeza, and goku gives same reaction as above. However, he doesn't bring up nappa, why? Because he's one-shot material, a joke for goku. So, freeza still has respectable power among all powerhouse Z fighters of android arc.
DanielSSJ wrote:
apex_pretador wrote:
Before porunga's appearance, goku got one hit on freeza , while freeza got like 6-7 hits, and he did flew against KameHameHa even if it was only for a while, and not completely.
I guess you could argue that goku was holding back, but he was enraged, to avenge krillin, and he is shown screamingly with wide-open mouth several times in the battle. Also, the hit freeza landed after flying through/around KHH was supposed to get the job done.
And this is not even including the power loss from SS goku's beatdown freeza got when he was at 50% of his power.
Goku get's more than one hit against Freeza before that point, and even after talking a beating from Freeza, Goku still says things like "I hope that's not all you have." Anyway, I assume that Goku was holding back a bit in order to extend the fight. Sure, Goku is pissed off about Kuririn's death, but, as we see later, Goku also wants to rub it in Freeza's face that he's stronger than him now.
but to prove himself stronger , he wouldn't hold back. He was raging mad, had to escape the planet in 5 minutes after defeating a power comparable to his own, and prove that he is stronger.
DanielSSJ wrote:If we're to assume that post-RoSaT SS Gotenks is stronger than Fat Boo, then Evil Boo should be about 8x stronger
man you are putting too much stock into multipliers. Super buu can't be 8x SS gotenks, going by the performance. Gotenks SS did better against super buu than buu did against SS3 gotenks or gohan. He did MUCH better against buu than SS2 vegeta against kid buu. He did better than what cell did against SS2 gohan, better than recoome/ butta/ jeece did against goku, better than #16 did against semi-cell, and I'm sure you'd agree that none of these were even 5x gaps, let alone 8x.
I don't take that portion of the Boo vs. Gotenks fight all that seriously, seeing how it's a comedic gag fight.
[/quote]Gotenks' entire character is a gag. I don't see this fight as a full-on gag fight anyways, it feels like gotenks can give a not serious super buu a lot of trouble. SS3 gotenks vs buu is more of a gag fight than SS gotenks vs buu.
Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?
dont care about gaps? never mind then, all points are worthless.
oh wait, if you don't care about gaps, then why care about multipliers anyways?
Besides, I'd assume Boo is just toying with Gotenks before he tries to kill him. Anyway, since when have I cared about power gaps?
dont care about gaps? never mind then, all points are worthless.
oh wait, if you don't care about gaps, then why care about multipliers anyways?
The difference is that the power multipliers are provided by officially sanctioned supplementary material of the series. Power Gaps, aka the idea that Character A has to be _% stronger than Character B to have a certain type of victory, is a fan-created idea that is never supported anywhere. Power levels were introduced into the story, not to give any real context to the battles, but to sound impressive when bad guy# 66 spout off an impressive sounding number, and to make said bad guy look like an idiot when he ends up getting his but kicked.
I might have misspoke when I said I don't care about gaps. I do have a vaguely defined idea of how much stronger a character has to be to have a certain type of victory, but that gets muddled when you consider skill, techniques, and unique abilities and other variables like that. For example, I have SS3 Goku above Pure Boo despite Boo coming out on top, due to SS3's steep energy requirements What I don't do is run formulas like, Gohan has to be 50% stronger than Boo or Cell or whoever to crush them so easily. The only time I do take them into consideration is when lines like "I'm at about half power" or "You forced me to use 10% of my full power" get thrown around.
ok, never mind then.
but still, 8x is too much for the performance he put up against buu. If you consider his perfoemance only his ghost attack, then he himself also took it, and wasn't damaged heavily.
Anyways, never mind. Take a look at my theory on buu:
Desassina wrote:
DanielSSJ wrote:It isn't logical to multiply two character's power together. Math just doesn't work like that. For example, if Pure Boo was a 40 instead of a 4, and Dai Kaioshin was a 4 instead of a 0.4, then Good Boo would be a 160. You can't multiply abstract things like a person's strength by anouther person's strength. You can add the two together or you can multiply it by an mathmatical integer, but you can't multiply the two together. Its the same reason why "Vegetto = Goku x Vegeta" doesn't work.
With addition, you have to make even more conditions for when Dai Kaioshin subtracts instead, even if it should be the same for Piccolo and the kids... It's confusing to say the least.
To solve your confusion,
I think that dai kaioshin's absorption works more like fusion, than rather than addition type. He goes to buff buu, then he fuses and forms an entirely new different being, with mind, heart, sense and both good and evil present. This is fat buu. He is extremely powerful due to incredible power of dai kaioshin, but dai kaioshin restricted a huge portion of his evilness, and his incredible power reserve of kid buu.
However, when he gets mad, dai kaioshin's hold on fat buu loosens , and fat buu becomes able to tap into the power of kid buu a bit.
So, fat buu (when he came out) was weaker than Majin vegeta and SS2 goku as they lol'd at his power. Then he gets a little serious, and taps the accessible kid buu's reserve he has, and powers up to a point that it worries goku & vegeta, and scares gohan. This is fat buu's max power without getting angry without kaoishin's hold on him loosening. Majin vegeta is able to thrash him around. They seem around the same level of power.
When fat buu powers up again even further, he is tapping into more of kid buu's power, due to his anger making the restriction of kaioshin weaker, which happens when steams come out of his head.
When fat buu gets fully mad, kaioshin's hold on his evilness breaks, but his restriction on the power of kid buu is still present. The freed evilness takes a form of skinny buu, and it is not able to access the power of kid buu due to the fact that restriction is still present.
To remove the restriction, evil buu absorbs fat buu and then becomes super buu, an incredible power, who is able to tap into 100% of kid buu's power AND the power of fat buu (the fusion of buu-material and dai-kaioshin) at the same time, and that's why he's so strong.
On buff buu, he is unrestrained kid buu with power of south kaioshin added.
Desassina wrote:Ok, but that's too long. I think that we can run with the idea that both Kaioshins suppressed his power, but added their traits to Majin Buu. South Kaioshin's strength and bulkiness were inherited at the expense of power, while Dai Kaioshin made him gentle with twice the amount of suppression. Super Buu is more of a fusion with a change in nature, trading his gentleness for strength, which allows his power to grow into Buff Buu's, and then Kid Buu's. Here's an example:
Gorou wrote:Where it is said that energy of Kaioshin make Buu more stronger ? Dabura asserts the opposite
Dabra asserts no such thing.
Dabura: "We can not use the energy of Kibith and Kaiohschin, but there are three wonderful energies on which to rely"
probably they can't use god ki?
@ahill1 please organize your quotes, it is hard to understand
VegetaSSJBlue wrote:Super Power Levels!!!
Battle of Gods Arc
Spoiler:
Goten- 60,000,000
Trunks- 65,000,000
Tien- 37,000
Android 18- 310,000,000
Piccolo (weights)- 3,600,000,000
Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000
Gotenks- 900,000,000
(Ssj)- 45,000,000,000
Gohan (Mystic)- 500,000,000,000
King Vegeta- 10,000
Prince Vegeta- 11,000
Vegeta- 95,000,000
(Ssj)- 4,750,000,000
(Ssj2)- 19,000,000,000
(Enraged Ssj2)- 950,000,000,000
Goku- 100,000,000
(Ssj)- 5,000,000,000
(Ssj2)- 20,000,000,000
(Ssj3)- 50,000,000,000
(Ssj Energy Absorbed)- 10,000,000,000,000
(SsjG/80%)- 48,000,000,000,000
(SsjG/Max)- 60,000,000,000,000
(Post God)- 12,000,000,000,000
(Post God/Ssj)- 60,000,000,000,000
Beerus- 1,000,000,000,000
(70%)- 70,000,000,000,000
(Max)- 100,000,000,000,000
Whis- 150,000,000,000,000
Resurrection F Arc
Spoiler:
Jaco the Galactic Patrolman- 1,500
Master Roshi (Intense Training)- 1,000
(Ultra)- 5,000
Tien- 42,000
Krillin (Intense Training)- 50,000
Piccolo (W/Weights)- 4,000,000,000
(W/out Weights)- 5,000,000,000
Gohan - 150,000,000
(Ssj)- 7,500,000,000
Frieza soldiers- 1,000
Sorbet- 2,500
Tagoma- 22,000
Shisami- 25,000
(Post Training W/Frieza)- 5,000,000,000
Frieza (1st form/revived)- 480,000
(1st form)- 53,000,000,000
(Final Form)- 10,000,000,000,000
(Golden)- 80,000,000,000,000
(Ki depleting)- 70,000,000,000,000
(Ki nearly gone)- 65,000,000,000,000
Goku (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000
(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000
Vegeta (training with Whis)- 15,000,000,000,000
(SsjGSsj)- 75,000,000,000,000
Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000
Whis- 150,000,000,000,000
Champa Arc
Spoiler:
Beerus- 100,000,000,000,000
Whis- 150,000,000,000,000
Champa- 95,000,000,000,000
Vados- 155,000,000,000,000
Piccolo- 5,600,000,000
Gohan- 500,000,000,000
Mr. Buu- 19,000,000,000
Goku- 200,000,000
(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000
(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000
(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000
Vegeta- 200,000,000
(Ssj)- 10,000,000,000
(Sbg)- 17,000,000,000,000
(SsjGSsj)- 85,000,000,000,000
Monaka- 90,000,000,000,000
Botamo- 40,000,000
Frost- 53,000,000
(Assault form)- 200,000,000
(Final Form)- 6,000,000,000
Magetta- 180,000,000
(Power Up)- 9,000,000,000
Kabe- 220,000,000
(Ssj)- 11,000,000,000
Hit- 200,000,000,000,000
Interesting, you put humans on ginyu force tiers.
However, roshi is too high. Even on Namek, many freeza soldiers were below 1000, like the ones krillin encountered initially. Freeza also said most of his current army is trash. So, I guess you could lower roshi a bit.
Shisami can be stronger, upto ginyu force level. He wasn't compared to dodoria / zarbon, & sorbet thought that even after tagoma's training, shisami is strongest soldier.
Goku (base) wasn't noted to get weaker since RoF in U6 arc, so I can't understand why did you put him so low & introduced this "SBG" thing. If it is even a thing, why didn't goku use it against frost? Why did no one comment on goku's power being thousands of times weaker than RoF? If this was a thing, I guess krillin would've commented that goku, even as a SS, isn't as strong as he was against freeza , in base.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:What do you guys think on my planned list for Cell Games ? Any feedbacks would be appreciated.
Perfect Cell
--- Against Goku/Gohan : 2,800,000,000
--- Full Power : 4,000,000,000
--- Super Perfect : 8,000,000,000
Gohan
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 3,500,000,000
--- Super Saiyan 2 : 7,000,000,000
--- Enraged Super Saiyan 2 : 8,000,000,000
Goku
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 2,500,000,000
Cell Juniors
--- 2,000,000,000
Vegeta :
--- Mastered Super Saiyan : 1,850,000,000
Cell (Perfect, full power) must be stronger than where you put him, (gohan seems too close to him) and I think that the gap between goku & gohan is too big.
Also, (up for personal interpretation) I don't think that SPC must be stronger than SS2 gohan.
Last edited by apex_pretador on Thu Mar 31, 2016 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
SSJ3 Vegeta wrote:DanielSSJ : I will post it later. apex_predator : Both suppressed Cell and Goku are absolute garbage compared to Gohan in my opinion.
Spoiler:
Cell used his true speed against Gohan.Yet Gohan can still keep up with him which led me to believe that Gohan isn't that much weaker than Full Power Cell.
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P6.4
Context: after fighting Gohan a little
Cell: “You’re a quick little brat…! How about I go all-out, in speed at least?”
After Cell used his true speed and attacks Gohan.Cell's attacks didn't even do a damn thing to him.
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P12.6-7
Context: after Cell beats up on Gohan
Goku: “Don’t panic, Piccolo. Gohan’s ki hasn’t fallen one bit, has it?”
Kuririn: “Ah…It-it’s true…!”
Chapter: 404 (DBZ 210), P14.2
Context: after Gohan isn’t fazed much by Cell’s attack
Cell: “..Well, this is a surprise…You’re exceptionally tough, aren’t you?…”
The time where Gohan decides to fight back.He kicked Cell in the face which knocked him down for a few seconds and leaves him bleeding on the floor.Through all of this.The Cell that fought Gohan was the same as the Cell that fought Goku.Though just way higher speed.
Just because cell's hits don't hurt him enough to make his ki drop doesn't mean he's massively superior. I agree that he's superior, but Nappa was also not fazed much by goku's hits.
Anyways, more importantly, on FP cell, even after seeing gohan's power, cell wanted goku to take a senzu and fight him. It means two things:
He thinks that goku can give him a better fight than gohan, so the gap isn't as outrageous as it is seemed to be
He can't rule out the possibility of all of them attacking him at once after goku takes a senzu. So, gohan can't be that close to full powered cell
Also, cell was ready to face a powered-up enraged gohan and actually tried to make gohan angry so that he can have a better fight.
Nappa is a special case because of his insane durability.
Cell probably just wanted for Goku to fight him again because Gohan just don't want to fight and does nothing.
The gap between Full Power Perfect Cell in my list is too big that Cell can speedblitz Goku and knock him out.So even if all of them will attack Cell.All of them except for Gohan will get instantly K.O'd.
Cell wants to make Gohan angry for a better fight.But could also be so Gohan can finally have a reason to fight him.When Gohan wasn't angry,almost all the time,he does nothing but stand around.
Though i could possibly downgrade Gohan to 3,250,000,000.
Nappa's "insane" durability was gone when piccolo's desperate blast made him mad. Anyways, not to go O/T,
gohan did fight back a little bit.
3.25 B seems better than 3.5 B for gohan IMO.
(On a side note , you really have huge numbers for these guys. I don't even have Majin vegeta above 2.5 billion.)
