Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

Well when various Daizenshuu's differ in the same information then I guess I can choose which one to follow.

Kaboom's numbers for everyone not Gohan, Cell or Goku in the CG are perfect for me.

I think Piccolo is too far away from the Cell Juniors. He was not so messed up in the end of the fight. I'd raise him to 1,500,000,000.

He admitted inferiority to the Cell that beat Super Vegeta. There is a considerable gap.

He had sensed BULKED-UP cell at that point.

Look the difference in his reactions before and after sensing bulked-up cell :

Spoiler:

388 (DB 194), P5.4
Piccolo: “H-he’s incredible…Cell in his perfect form…”


Note that cell changes up to his buff form only momentarily, so that's probably why krillin etc didn't notice, but piccolo was paying hard attention.
When he sensed buff-form trunks being stronger than cell's perfect form, he didn't "see" it as he didn't comment about trunks' speed.

However, then Cell transforms into his buff form momentarily and in the same instant, trunks powers down, so piccolo comments on how incredible the perfect form of cell is. (NOTE: It is very likely that trunks later told him about the fact that he lost due to Grade 3, but stil doesn't change the fact that piccolo sensed cell's bulked up perfect form.

[apex_pretador]

Here is my movie power level list! Feedback is appreciated. And if you want to compare to them to my main story power levels, here: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... start=7531

Dead Zone

Spoiler:

Goku(Weighted)- 334
Unweighted- 416
Piccolo(Weighted)- 322
Unweighted- 408
Krillin- 206

Nicky- 220
Powered up- 286
Sansho- 215
Powered up- 280
Ginger- 210
Powered up- 273

Kami- 270
Garlic Jr- 325
Super Garlic- 455

Gohan- 1
Enraged- 1307

The World's Strongest

Spoiler:

Roshi- 139
Bio-Saibamen- 50

Goku- 8,200
KKx2- 16,400
KKx3- 24,600
KKx4- 32,800

Misokatsun- 4,300
Kishime- 7,000
Ebifurya- 7,500

Gohan- 1100
Krillin- 1770
Piccolo- 5,400
Mind Controlled- 8,100

Dr.Wheelo- 25,000
Power Rising- 37,500

The Tree of Might

Spoiler:

Goku- 32,000
KKx2- 64,000
KKx10- 320,000
1st Spirit Bomb- 400,000
2nd Spirit Bomb- 1,500,000

Piccolo(Weighted)- 18,000
Unweighted- 22,500
Gohan- 10,000
Tien- 6,000
Krillin- 5,200
Yamcha- 4,000
Chiaotzu- 2,500

Razin/Lakasei- 7,600 each
Cacao- 8,400
Amond- 9,100
Daiz- 13,000

Turles- 28,000
Post 1 Fruit- 560,000
Post 2 Fruits- 840,000

Lord Slug

Spoiler:

Goku- 90,000
False SSJ- 2,250,000
KKx100 (Piccolo's power)- 9,000,000

Piccolo(Weighted)- 48,000
Unweighted- 60,000
Krillin- 13,000
Gohan- 14,000

Doradabo- 35,000
Medamatcha- 40,000
Angila- 42,000

Old Slug- 70,000
Young Slug- 350,000
Giant Slug- 3,500,000

Cooler's Revenge

Spoiler:

Goku- 4,200,000
KKx20- 84,000,000
SSJ- 210,000,000

Piccolo(Weighted)- 1,600,000
Unweighted- 2,000,000
Gohan- 350,000
Krillin- 120,000

Neiz- 720,000
Dore- 780,000
Salza- 1,250,000

Cooler(4%)- 5,000,000
Full Power- 125,000,000
5th Form- 175,000,000

Return of Cooler

Spoiler:

Goku- 4,500,000
KKx20- 90,000,000
SSJ- 225,000,000
Vegeta- 4,800,000
SSJ- 240,000,000

Piccolo- 175,000,000
Gohan- 1,250,000
Krillin- 300,000

Meta Cooler- 200,000,000
Post Repair- 300,000,000

Super Android 13

Spoiler:

Goku- 4,500,000
SSJ- 225,000,000
Spirit Bomb Absorbed- 900,000,000
Vegeta- 4,800,000
SSJ- 240,000,000
Trunks- 3,900,000
SSJ- 195,000,000
Piccolo(Weighted)- 280,000,000
Unweighted- 350,000,000

Gohan- 1,250,000
Krillin- 300,000

Android 15- 210,000,000
Android 14- 160,000,000
Android 13- 250,000,000
Super Android 13- 450,000,000

Broly the Legendary Super Saiyan

Spoiler:

Goku- 30,000,000
SSJ- 1,500,000,000
Combined Power- 3,750,000,000
Vegeta- 21,000,000
SSJ- 1,050,000,000
ASSJ- 1,260,000,000
Trunks- 19,000,000
SSJ- 950,000,000
ASSJ- 1,140,000,000
Gohan- 14,000,000
SSJ- 700,000,000
Piccolo- 850,000,000

Paragus- 5,000

Broly- 35,000,000
Restrained SSJ- 1,050,000,000
SSJ- 1,750,000,000
LSSJ- 2,800,000,000

Bojack Unbound

Spoiler:

Gohan- 65,000,000
SSJ- 3,250,000,000
SSJ2- 6,500,000,000
Vegeta- 41,000,000
SSJ- 2,050,000,000
Trunks- 39,000,000
SSJ- 1,950,000,000
Piccolo- 1,600,000,000
Tien- 140,000
Krillin- 300,000
Yamcha- 85,000

Gokua- 750,000,000
Full Power- 1,125,000,000
Zangya- 1,200,000,000
Bido- 1,500,000,000
Bujin- 1,300,000,000

Bojack- 3,600,000,000
Full Power Bojack- 4,500,000,000

Broly Second Coming

Spoiler:

Gohan- 52,000,000
SSJ- 2,600,000,000
SSJ2- 4,875,000,000
Goten- 18,000,000
SSJ- 900,000,000
Trunks- 19,500,000
SSJ- 975,000,000

Broly- 74,000,000
SSJ- 3,700,000,000
LSSJ- 5,920,000,000

Krillin- 280,000
Videl- 19

Goku- 73,000,000
SSJ- 3,350,000,000

Bio-Broly

Spoiler:

Goten- 22,000,000
SSJ- 1,100,000,000
Trunks- 23,000,000
SSJ- 1,150,000,000
Android 18- 300,000,000
Krillin- 280,000

Mr.Satan- 14
Bio-Warriors- 500

Bio-Broly-17,500,000
SSJ- 875,000,000
LSSJ- 1,400,000,000

Fusion Reborn

Spoiler:

Goku- 75,000,000
SSJ- 3,750,000,000
SSJ2- 7,500,000,000
SSJ3- 30,000,000,000
Vegeta- 60,000,000
SSJ- 3,000,000,000
SSJ2- 6,000,000,000

Weighted Pikkon- 2,750,000,000

Mini-Janemba's- 1,000,000
Janemba- 18,750,000,000
Super Janemba- 37,500,000,000

SSJ Gogeta- 52,500,000,000

Gohan- 56,000,000
Videl- 18
Goten- 22,000,000
SSJ- 1,100,000,000
Trunks- 23,000,000
SSJ- 1,150,000,000
Gotenks- 385,000,000
SSJ- 19,250,000,000

Frieza(Suppressed)- 6,000,000

Wrath of the Dragon

Spoiler:

Goku- 78,000,000
SSJ- 3,900,000,000
SSJ2- 7,800,000,000
SSJ3- 31,200,000,000
Vegeta- 64,000,000
SSJ- 3,200,000,000
SSJ2- 6,400,000,000
Ultimate Gohan- 300,000,000,000
Goten- 40,000,000
SSJ- 2,000,000,000
Trunks- 42,000,000
SSJ- 2,100,000,000
Gotenks- 600,000,000
SSJ- 30,000,000,000
SSJ3- 240,000,000,000

Tapion- 65,000,000

Hirudegarn (1/2)- 90,000,000,000
Complete- 180,000,000,000
Super- 450,000,000,000

Dragon Fist- 1,190,000,000,000

Battle of Gods

Spoiler:

Goku-90,000,000
SSJ- 4,500,000,000
SSJ2- 9,000,000,000
SSJ3- 36,000,000,000
SSJ God (80%)- 144,000,000,000,000
Full Power- 180,000,000,000,000
God Ki absorbed- 2,900,000,000,000
SSJ w/God Ki- 145,000,000,000,000

Vegeta- 75,000,000
SSJ- 3,750,000,000
SSJ2- 7,500,000,000
Enraged- 7,500,000,000,000
Galick Gun- 15,000,000,000,000

Gohan- 100,000,000
SSJ- 5,000,000,000
Goten- 38,000,000
Trunks- 39,000,000
Gotenks- 570,000,000
SSJ- 28,500,000,000

Piccolo- 1,900,000,000
Krillin- 280,000
Tien- 225,000
Android 18- 300,000,000
Yamcha- 75,000
Good Buu- 15,000,000,000

Lord Beerus(1%/ Against Everyone)- 3,000,000,000,000
10%/Against Vegeta- 30,000,000,000,000
50%/Initially Against SSJ God Goku- 150,000,000,000,000
70%/Most Used Against God Goku- 210,000,000,000,000
Full Power- 300,000,000,000,000

Whis- 450,000,000,000,000

Resurrection F

Spoiler:

Goku- 3,900,000,000,000
SSGSS- 195,000,000,000,000
Vegeta- 3,750,000,000,000
SSGSS- 187,500,000,000,000

Gohan- 90,000,000
SSJ- 4,500,000,000
Tien- 235,000
Krillin- 275,000
Master Roshi- 750
Buff- 1,500
Piccolo(Weighted)- 2,000,000,000
Full Power- 2,500,000,000
Jaco- 800

First Form Frieza(Just revived)- 420,000
Post Training- 10,000,000,000
Final Form- 2,250,000,000,000
Golden- 225,000,000,000,000
Tired- 150,000,000,000,000
Even More Tired- 120,000,000,000,000
Tired 4th Form- 1,200,000,000,000

Tagoma- 25,000
Shisami- 24,000
Post Training- 2,400,000,000
Sorbet- 1,000

Lord Beerus- 300,000,000,000,000
Whis- 450,000,000,000,000
(Still the same as before.)

Interesting list . Some observations:

• I liked Kami being 270. He was above BoZ Tien and below weighted piccolo.
• Movie 1 is perfect except Power-up Garlic jr is too low. He was barely defeated even after goku & Piccolo teamed up. He should be stronger than that.
• Arent these saibaman clones too low? I mean they were giving roshi a lot of trouble & KO'd gohan.
• The Bio-Warriors are TOO high. They can't be that much higher than roshi, who's a joke to daimao, who is a joke to popo, who's nothing to kami, who's nothing to BoZ goku, who's nothing to raditz, who's nothing to saiyan arc piccolo, who's nothing to nappa.
  Actually, my placement for M-2 is a bit different than popular opinions, so i'll skip it.
• Interesting, but post first fruit turles above FREEZA? He was just able to overpower goku, that's it.
• You used the numbers from ginyu battle .
• Cooler 4th form FP is too high. He shouldn't be above freeza already in his 4th form IMO. Also, SS goku vs cooler was a big gap. If you really go with 120-150 mil no.s, then the relative gap must be much larger here.
  Even his 5th form was only said to surpass 100% injured freeza.
• Interesting placement for krillin. But why gohan so low? Did he slack off?
• Not watched meta-cooler, so
• Veeta is too high. He was barely able to beat a weaker android while goku was fighting on par with a stronger android.
• It seems like piccolo is kamiccolo.
• Super 13 should be a little higher. He wasn't even bulged by kamiccolo's hits.
• Piccolo is wayyyyyyyy too low. Piccolo must be higher than 1st RoSaT Vegeta / trunks. He should be like 1,300,000,000 by your numbers.
• Blue bojack is too high man, he was barely able to beat piccolo and needed to transform to beat vegeta. His best feat is beating piccolo after a fight and not losing to vegeta before he transformed.
• Green bojack is even too higher. He wasn't able to beat SUPER SAIYAN 1 gohan without his teammates' help. He was hurt by base goku's punch. His best feat is having a little upper hand on SS gohan and beating vegeta.
• Videl is too high IMO. Where do you out BoDB goku? Except that, M 10 is perfect.
• I feel like base gotenks is too low. Same for Super gogeta, he feels too low. Other than that, it is pretty good.
• What's that? SS goku / vegeta below mystic gohan? Why? Why SS3 goku is barely above SS gotenks when what he did was VASTLY, VASTLY superior to SS3 gotenks. Hell, why is gohan above Gotenks? Gohan can do nothing but get one-shotted. Gotenks was able to "kill" hirdugarn.

Summary: pretty good list except M13, which seems messed up a lot, and a few issues pointed out above.

[apex_pretador]

@apex_pretador

Piccolo already knew the reason Trunks lost (due to him being Kamiccolo). Kamiccolo is not only able to sense their chi, but also exactly what's happening, like when he knew Kuririn broke the remote control.

but then why did he say this quote only AFTER cell bulked up & trunks powered down at the same instant? Also if I'm not wrong, he said that kami will lose the ability to see into the lower world?


388 (DBZ 194), P5.4
Piccolo: “H-he’s incredible…Cell in his perfect form…”

Not said until the bulking up of cell & trunks' powering down happened in the same instant. Also , if he was able to see them, then wh didn't he comment even once about the speed issue during the entire fight? Oh this is really inconsistent

[apex_pretador]

How strong do you think MSSJ Goku (50%) is?

Around as strong as cell who fought vegeta.

Stronger than SSJG3 Trunks?

Noo

Or equal to warm up Perfect Cell?

Yes. Neither was stated to be superior by vegeta, and both were one-step ahead of him.

I think he saying Perfect Cell was incredible is not only referencing his pure strength, but also his smartness and cunning (Cell even said he would be complete in "everything", what includes more than strength IMO).

It is too obvious weakness to realize. Goku realized without even trying. Piccolo is a genius himself as well.

[apex_pretador]

Here's the problem with Goku MSSJ (50%) being equal to warm up Perfect Cell:

lets see:

When Goku left the Rosat, Vegeta asked him if he could beat Cell. After Goku witnessed Cell in his Perfect Cell, he said "I probably cannot win". So, we have:

Perfect Cell >= MSSJ Goku

which is obvious. However, Goku saying that doesn't mean that he himself believed that he can't beat cell. He still tried his best till he really lost. He also didn't want to get everyone's hopes up.

Trunks was surprised with Goku saying he could not beat Cell and said:

Trunks: It's...that powerful?...I was afraid of that...

When was that? I don't remember.

So, Trunks was expecting Cell's true power to be a good deal stronger than that power Cell displayed against him and Vegeta:

Perfect Cell (estimated true power) >= MSSJ Goku (estimated true power) >>> Perfect Cell (vs Vegeta and Trunks)


Even so, the power Goku showed in Karin's tower (his 50%) did really surprised Trunks. At no time, Trunks thought that was not Goku's full power, until he heard Piccolo (post Rosat) being labeled by trash by Son Goku. So, we finally have:


Perfect Cell (estimated true power) >= MSSJ Goku (estimated true power) = MSSJ Goku (50%) >>> Perfect Cell (vs Vegeta and Trunks)


This is at the very least. Goku MSSJ (50%) could be even more powerful than Trunks' estimations of Goku's full power.

OK, I'll take a look from another angle:

• Chapter: 391 (DBZ 197), P13.1-2
  Context: After sensing half of Full Power Super Saiyan Goku’s max power from a distance.
  Vegeta (to self): “Damn you, Kakarot… It’s always like this… He’s always a step ahead of me…! It drives me crazy…Just when I think I’ve caught up, he widens the lead again…”
• He's one step ahead of vegeta, and cell was like one step ahead of him too. "one step ahead" never used to depict incredible gaps.
  And this is not even including the fact that vegeta might have known that it wasn't goku's full power. (Note: Ki sensors generally can tell if someone is at FP or not , in most cases, and vegeta is too good at ki sensing to not know that, compared to trunks.
• Vegeta wasn't surprised that goku can't beat cell, neither was krillin (who sensed the power of PC in one hit from him). Also, I'd like to know when trunks said that.
• Karin flat-out said he had 0 chance against cell, who hasn't even showed the slightest of his power.
• During the entire time, trunks was like "does goku have a plan or what?" "Why is he so calm?"

On the points you showed, it may be interpreted in a different way as well (If trunks did say that)

Super trunks 44 < Super vegeta 48 << Cell (initial)55 ~= Goku (Karin)55 < Goku (Trunks' estimation) 60 < Cell (Vegeta's estimation 65 < Cell (Trunks' estimation) 78 < Grade 3 trunks 85 << Cell games goku 100

If we say CG Goku is 100, then it can follow the bolded numbers. You can put CG Vegeta / trunks at about 68-69.

Because it is heavily implied that CG Goku is the strongest ki from heroes part, and superior to grade 3 trunks.

[apex_pretador]

@DBZGTKOSDH

Golden freeza seems like barely a boost, why? He was implied to be a huge , HUGE HUGE HUGE boost.

#19 is too high and dr gero is too low.
The same vegeta, who one-shotted post absroptions #19 , was implied to lose against gero. Piccolo said the same thing as well. Not to mention that he doesn't lack confidence in fighting the androids, and if he is really THAT weak, wouldn't he instantly understands that they cant be the androids?

Also, did you really put CG SUPER SAIYAN gohan above full power perfect cell?

[apex_pretador]

Also, did you really put CG SUPER SAIYAN gohan above full power perfect cell? No disrespect man (seriously, don't mind) but this is laughable.

1) With or without the meaningless "no offense" modifier, can we please NOT do the "laughable" thing for something as subjective and ultimately meaningless as power level numbers? This isn't the type of community where they're unduly treated as serious business and opinions of them are worthy of derision.

2) Based on where DBZGTKOSDH placed Goku, that may not even be "full-power" Cell, just the power Cell used to fight Goku and Gohan before the latter went Super Saiyan 2.

ok. I edited my post

[apex_pretador]

Golden freeza seems like barely a boost, why? He was implied to be a huge , HUGE HUGE HUGE boost.

No one ever said anything about the boost that Freeza's Golden form gave him. All they were talking about was Golden Freeza's amazing power.

Everyone specifically talking about golden freeza's amazing power implies that he is significantly stronger than his base form.

#19 is too high and dr gero is too low.

Why?

The same vegeta, who one-shotted post absroptions #19 , was implied to lose against gero. Piccolo said the same thing as well.

What are you talking about? Dr. Gero was never implied to be stronger than Vegeta.

Not to mention that he doesn't lack confidence in fighting the androids, and if he is really THAT weak, wouldn't he instantly understands that they cant be the androids?

Piccolo never showed confidence that he could beat the Artificial Humans in a one-on-one fight, he was just confident that they would manage to defeat them eventually.

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”


Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
(THE SAME VEGETA ONE-SHOTTED #19 post)


Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.6
Context: after Tenshinhan, Gohan, and Kuririn want to chase after No.20
Piccolo: “I understand…But don’t try and fight him. He’s not an opponent you guys could handle…”


Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”
(GOKU ISN'T IN ANOTHER DIMENSION THAN PICCOLO)


Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”


Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P8.2
Context: Piccolo wants to fight No.20 without Vegeta's interference
No.20: “Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”
(HE UNDERESTIMATED PICCOLO AND STILL THOUGHT THAT HIS POWER WILL BE ENOUGH TO BEAT VEGETA WHILE HE'S SEEN VEGETA'S POWER)

[apex_pretador]

1) Exactly. It doesn't indicate that dabura can one-shot piccolo with his power alone without using spit.

2) Yes, he has a small idea probably, but nothing more.
Vegeta's line about kaioshin when buu just gets released also supports my point.

3) You could argue about that, but still, he did better against buu than gohan, and SS1 level characters aren't even supposed to do any good against buu. So, kaioshin is atleast on the same tier as SS gohan.
At budokai, he is seemingly unimpressed of gohan. He holds him off easily as a SS2.
Shin's strength is one of the most complicated topic, but that doesn't change the fact that god ki can't be sensed by mere mortals.

4) I think I must clarify that he wasn't trying his hardest.
He later says that he knows gohan is total trash because he fought him a little ago.

Moving it from Dragon Ball Super: Power Level Discussion Thread. For context, search for page 183. I took the liberty to put numbers on our lines to make things more simple.

I don't understand what you meant by "exactly". My conclusions were completely the opposite of what you claimed.

I think Dabra can "one shot" Piccolo without spit and I explained why. You think Piccolo is SS-tier and Dabra can't do what I claimed based on what?
a) Piccolo was defeated by a cheap trick, therefore he and Kuririn must be much harder to defeat them they were;
b) Piccolo can't sense Kaioshin's ki to tell how strong he is, so Piccolo didn't know what the hell he said;
c) Kaioshin fought better than SS Gohan and can hold SS2 Gohan off easily, then Kaioshin was wrong when he said it was quite hard to stop Gohan from moving in the tournament.. and he was wrong about SS Gohan surpassing his powers..;
d) Dabra wasn't all-out against Gohan, so he must have forgotten he was supposed to inflict damage enough to revive Boo and not enjoy a battle he had a slight advantage.

1. No, Krillin is obviously not going to be able to fight SS+ level opponent. You said that dabra "easily took care" of piccolo, but was having problems with gohan. I'm saying that dabra spit taking care of piccolo doesn't mean that he can completely stomp or one shot piccolo.

2. Piccolo doesn't know the strength of kaioshin because he can't sense his ki. All his words are based on speculation and some other-worldly knowledge. He didn't even know he was kaioshin. By piccolo's words, Dai Kaio >>Piccolo is indicated and even that is not by sensing power but speculation and some other worldly knowledge of Kami. So, the "only" comparison between piccolo and shin is turned useless.

3. He did hold gohan without much trouble , and that was SUPER SAIYAN 2 gohan. He wasn't much impressed by it , only said it is hard to believe this power in mortals, so he must not be that away from gohan resting SS2 level. His performance against buu also indicates that he might be superior to SS1 gohan,

4. Dabra's statement says that he fought gohan a little and that he's trash. Given how the battle was shown, they were near equals, with dabra not sweating and looking tired but gohan was (like cell vs goku or weighted goku vs tien etc), it is possible that dabra didn't try his hardest.

I don't know if I had understood your points correctly, but these are the impressions you leave. I disagree with them, because..
a) Vegeta's line about Kaioshin only supports he was weaker than Goku and Vegeta.

The quote:

Chapter: 461 (DBZ 267), P4.6, P5.4-6
Goku: “It’s a ki…! A huge ki has appeared…! Majin Boo has finally come out…”
Vegeta: “Fuffuffuh…Majin Boo, huh?...Here I was wondering what kind of amazing guy he would be, and he’s got this kind of battle power number?...I thought so…Kakarot, you and I have now become too strong…By a wide margin! By his nature, Kaioshin is supposed to be someone tremendous, but have you ever once thought that he was incredible? Quite the opposite, it's Kaioshin who’s been bewildered…Majin Boo is fearsome from Kaioshin’s perspective, but from ours he’s not so much…”
Goku: “N-no…That’s not it…There’s something abnormal about this ki...”

Now, how is kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous"?
The only quotes about shin's strength are piccolo's and freeza's. Given piccolo's statement, freeza's statement is kind of useless.
So, vegeta saying that kaioshin's hype is probably just hype and nothing else, suggests that he thinks this in context to the piccolo's statement, because there is no other hype over kaioshin power.

b) Gohan's speed was at least greater than Kaioshin's. Kaioshin didn't knock Boo in any time, Gohan did once and that scared Babidi for a brief moment. The best Kaioshin could do was making Boo's head go back a little with a kiai twice. I don't see in which part Kaioshin faired better than Gohan did. Both would have died, if not for the intervention of others. Dabra had the worst luck, despite being a better fighter than those two.

The fight seems to disagre with SS gohan >> Kaioshin part at least. They are on the same level atleast, with someone having the slight superiority maybe.
Goku (less than 85,000) was faster than FP Ginyu. Speed mostly relates with power but not always. I see them both at the same level.

c) Dabra's confidence in being able to defeat Gohan correlates with the way their previous fight went, Dabra was winning. It doesn't imply Dabra was hiding strength back then.

open to interpretation.

[apex_pretador]

Where do you guys put these people at ?

SSJ2 Teen Gohan [25th TB] : 68
SSJ2 Vegeta [Pre Majin] : 83
SSJ2 Goku [Buu Arc] : 98

Innocent Buu : vs vegeta - 140 (FP), initial - 80 , vs gohan and co - 110
Innocent Buu [Angry to the point of splitting] : 180

Grey Buu : 180
Good Buu : 120

Super Buu : 600
Kid Buu : 400

South Kaioshin : 260

^^^ In units of Yakons
Buff buu - 660
SS3 goku - 392
SS3 gotenks - 720
Gohan - 750

I replied to your number 1 argument, because you said Dabra using spit to get rid of Piccolo is an evidence that Dabra can't one shot Piccolo, or am I mistaken? I never said Dabra's spit definetely translates into he being able to take care of Piccolo without it. Those events don't correlate.

Exactly. So dabra spitting on piccolo doesn't mean that he can easily beat him strengthwise.

Though he can't sense Kaioshin's ki, somewhere in Piccolo's mind, he realizes how strong Kaioshin is. That's my point. I can't see how his remark is useless. The story doesn't provide any fact to show Piccolo was mistaken or wrong.

I'm not saying that his remark is definitely useless or wrong, but how is he supposed to know? Piccolo doesn't even know who he is, so how is he supposed to know his strength? It is made clear in BoG that he can't sense god ki.

Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous, as Vegeta said, but not when compared with Goku and Vegeta, that's what Vegeta said. He was actually noting the fact Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Kaioshin's power, to the point even the fearsome Boo isn't very impressive. Vegeta was proven wrong later about Boo being a pushover.

And exactly HOW was he supposed to be tremondous? Obviously not by "1-shotting freeza" statement, because #16 can do that & he's not tremondous. So, only think which makes kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous" is piccolo's statement. Vegeta's comment can't refer to anything else.

Personally, I see Boo having more difficulty with Gohan than with Kaioshin. He cross punched Gohan and used a ki ball meant to kill. Gohan fought back, Kaioshin did practically nothing.

Kaioshin got like 3 hits in, all with TK when he isn't even a fighter, and lost all his mind after seeing buu and was scared as hell, while gohan landed only one off-guard kick.
Anyways, we can agree on them being on the same level atleast, can't we?

If yes, then I'll provide some new arguments directly relating to our main debate and skip over this kaioshin thing.

[apex_pretador]

Chapter: 347 (DBZ 153), P3.5
Tenshinhan: “I don’t like that Piccolo and Vegeta have powered up so extraordinarily, but for now at least it’s a relief…”

That just shows that Piccolo is much stronger than the Earthlings.

That shows piccolo "has powered up extraordinarily" not just that he's much stronger than humans, because he already was way,way , wayyyyyyyy stronger than humans probably post nail merging.
He was already strong enough to take on all humans at once even before he merged with nail.

Chapter: 345 (DBZ 151), P6.1-2
Context: after Vegeta scares No.20 away with a bluff
Piccolo: “He really had lost a lot of stamina…when he confirmed that the androids sucked out energy with the palms of their hands…He ought to have lost if he had fought that No.20 guy…But he talked as if he still had something up his sleeve…Vegeta really is a fighting genius…He might have sur-surpassed…Goku…”
(THE SAME VEGETA ONE-SHOTTED #19 post)

Vegeta had lost a lot of power though, and used his most powerful attack to one-shot #19, so this could give advantage to Dr. Gero to absorb even more power from Vegeta. #19 had absorbed a Kamehameha from a weakened SS Goku, and a lot of power from SS Vegeta. Dr. Gero had only absorbed power from Yamcha at that point, and after that he only absorbed a normal ki blast from SS Vegeta & power from suppressed Piccolo, so I don't see how Dr. Gero could have eventually surpassed #19.

The same "lost a lot of strenght" vegeta one-shotted #19, implying that vegeta (post) >> #19 post.
Gero was implied to be above vegeta. Hell, even if he's not above vegeta, he's very close to him.

Chapter 341 (DBZ 147), P6.2-4
Context: as Goku fights No.19
Tenshinhan: ”In-incredible…What strength…S-so that’s a Super Saiyan…He’s in a completely different dimension than we are…Too different…”
Piccolo: “…I wonder…”
(GOKU ISN'T IN ANOTHER DIMENSION THAN PICCOLO)

Piccolo is concerned because Goku should have been even more powerful than that, it has nothing to do with his power IMO.

I think that this conversation implies that goku (at whatever strength he's fighting) is far above tien, so much that he's like another dimension to him, and when tien says that to piccolo saying that he so far above "us" . then piccolo doesn't seem to think that way.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P12.4
Kuririn: “He’s st-strong…! What kind of training did Piccolo do…And he’s not even a Su-Super Saiyan…”

IMO, Kuririn is saying that because he is watching Piccolo beating the Artificial Humans that killed Super Saiyans in the future... except it later turned out that these are different ones, and much weaker than the ones that actually killed Super Saiyans in the future. Otherwise, he would have said this after sensing Piccolo's ki, like everyone reacted after sensing the power of the Super Saiyans for the first time.

Piccolo only released his FP in bursts as he explained to dr gero. Also, the only one who reacted amazingly to super saiyans was tien. This remark is made when piccolo released his FP in bursts against gero. Before that, he was suppressed.

Chapter: 346 (DBZ 152), P8.2
Context: Piccolo wants to fight No.20 without Vegeta's interference
No.20: “Don’t interfere, he says…Kukkukkuh…Alright, if I drain [Piccolo]'s energy again, then [I’ll win] against Vegeta…”
(HE UNDERESTIMATED PICCOLO AND STILL THOUGHT THAT HIS POWER WILL BE ENOUGH TO BEAT VEGETA WHILE HE'S SEEN VEGETA'S POWER)

That doesn't necessarily mean that he will become stronger than Vegeta. Power isn't everything, and Dr. Gero has a very special ability than not only can make him stronger than he is during his fight, but it also limits his opponents' moves since they can't use ki blasts against him.

[/quote]
power sin't everything but when , by your numbers, vegeta is 20x stronger than piccolo , who's stronger than dr gero, then nothing else matters.
#19 only absorbed power because vegeta allowed him to. Vegeta could've one-shotted post goku #19. Gero , after seeing what vegeta dod to post goku #19, still thought that piccolo absorption can make him strong enough to take on vegeta, or atleast close gap enough so that he can atleast put up a fight with his absorption ability.

[apex_pretador]

Though he can't sense Kaioshin's ki, somewhere in Piccolo's mind, he realizes how strong Kaioshin is. That's my point. I can't see how his remark is useless. The story doesn't provide any fact to show Piccolo was mistaken or wrong.

I'm not saying that his remark is definitely useless or wrong, but how is he supposed to know? Piccolo doesn't even know who he is, so how is he supposed to know his strength? It is made clear in BoG that he can't sense god ki.

God's memories. Dende can feel the ki of gods, so God could have felt Kaioshin's ki when he was alive a long ago. It's not very clear, but when Piccolo merged with God they seem to have shared thoughts and memories as well.
Dai Kaio's ki.
Piccolo mentions being surpassed by dai kaio.

Even if he sensed him as Kami, it was tooo long ago, and it is very likely that the comparison made hundreds of yrs ago will be faded in kami's memory when he himself has become billions of times stronger, literally.

Even if he sensed kaioshin hundreds of yrs ago, it is like letting BoZ goku letting sense full powered kid buu.

Also, babidi thinks that he is superior to kaioshin (with magic power) and he's helpless against piccolo. He even considered himself helpless before piccolo even sliced him.

Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous, as Vegeta said, but not when compared with Goku and Vegeta, that's what Vegeta said. He was actually noting the fact Goku and Vegeta have far surpassed Kaioshin's power, to the point even the fearsome Boo isn't very impressive. Vegeta was proven wrong later about Boo being a pushover.

And exactly HOW was he supposed to be tremondous? Obviously not by "1-shotting freeza" statement, because #16 can do that & he's not tremondous. So, only think which makes kaioshin "supposed to be tremondous" is piccolo's statement. Vegeta's comment can't refer to anything else.

No, Vegeta said Kaioshin was supposed to be tremendous due to his nature, he is a god above gods, that's all. In a nutshell, that line implies Vegeta and Goku surpassed this guy. Piccolo's statement has nothing to do with it.

Howe was being "god of gods" make his supposed to be tremendous? King kai was "god of worlds" and a god above Kamis of various planets, and was like what ? 4000? Weaker than nappa.
The only thing which make him "supposed to be incredible" is super namek piccolo's statement.

And it is not like vegeta even cares about level of gods. He cares about the power only.

[apex_pretador]

Vegeta doesn't have any way to grasp his power

except piccolo's statement.

Now, moving on from kaioshin topic, why I believe that piccolo ~= SS gohan (buu arc)

• Piccolo is excited to fight in budokai against SS vegeta , SS goku and SS gohan. (I believe atleast gohan will not go SS2 vs him and he doesn't know vegeta can go SS2 as well)
• If piccolo << Shin << SS1 is true, then why even bother to be in the tournament when vegeta is going to be there? Pic is not the type of guy who underestimates the opponents, and he won't fight in pointless fight. So, say if he hasn't even achieved a level close to CG goku, then why bother fighting?
• Piccolo >> SS trunks according to both goku & vegeta in DBS, and the only time after CG when they could've sensed piccolo's FP was buu arc or gap between buu arc & BoG.
  We know how much trouble could goten give to gohan and trunks was even stronger than goten. Then they go to RoSaT and power up even further.
• The only time piccolo is implied to be fodder is against SS2+ to SS3+ tier opponents.

[apex_pretador]

Vegeta doesn't have any way to grasp his power

except piccolo's statement.

Piccolo's statement is vague. Vegeta has no way to know if Kaioshin is stronger than his Super Saiyan, for example. Kaioshin admitted inferiority to Dabra and Vegeta didn't think Dabra was impressive. Once he felt Boo's initial ki, Vegeta more or less confirmed his suspects.

He has no way of saying that kaioshin is "implied to be tremondous" except piccolo's statement.
How else is kaioshin "implied" to be anything?

In response to your list, Piccolo is fodder to Dabra, I don't think he showed any confidence in taking the Saiyans in the tournament. His role was pointless, but even Kuririn was there. Why not having a bit of fun?

I just thought that we already discussed that piccolo being spit upon doesn't mean he's fodder to dabra, didn't we?
Also, kuririn's character is completely different from piccolo's character. Piccolo doesn't fight someone way stronger than himself, unless there is a really desperate situation, or he has a trick up his sleeve.
He's not the type of guy to be there "just for fun" either.

The only point I see in favor of Piccolo is the strength of the Saiyan children being not too far from Gohan's, but it is hardly an implication as direct as to when Piccolo faced Kaioshin.

The evidence of piccolo facing kaioshin can't be taken as mentioned exactly when he can't even sense him.

More importantly, if kaioshin is so superior that why even bother fighting, and is nothing to Super saiyans, then why bother fighting super saiyans? So, either Shin >> SS or piccolo's statement can't be taken literally, which is further evident by vegeta's comment as well as not being able to sense ki AND piccolo not realizing who the person was.

[apex_pretador]

Spoiler:

Saiyan arc



Arrival of Raditz


Farmer
~ full power - 5

Piccolo
~ weighted - 322
~ full power - 408
--- 1st Makankōsappō - 1,330
--- 2nd Makankōsappō - 1,280

Son Goku
~ weighted - 334
~ full power - 416
--- Kamehameha - 924

Son Gohan
~ afraid - 1
~ distressed - 710
~ enraged - 1,307

Raditz
~ full power - 1,250



Pre Preparation


Piccolo
~ weighted - 329

Muten-Roshi
~ full power - 139

Chaozu
~ full power - 151

Yamcha
~ full power - 177

Kuririn
~ full power - 206

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 250

Enma Daio
~ full power - 1,800

Kaio-sama
~ full power - 3,500



Battle with Nappa and Vegeta


Yajirobe
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 600

Piccolo
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ suppressed - 1,220
~ full power - 2,000

Son Gohan
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ suppressed - 981
~ full power - 1,307
~ enraged - 2,800
--- Masenkō - 2,800
~ weakened - 600
~ Great Ape - 6,000

Kuririn
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ suppressed - 1,083
~ full power - 1,440

Chaozu
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 800

Tenshinhan
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 1,600
~ beaten down - 500
--- Kikoho - 2,500

Yamcha
post 1 year Saiyan preparation training
~ full power - 1,350

Saibaman
~ full power - 1,200

Nappa
~ suppressed (vs. Zet Senshi) - 3,600
~ powered-up (vs. Goku) - 4,500
~ full power - 7,500

Son Goku
post 5 month Kaio-sama training
~ suppressed - 5,000
~ full power - 8,000+
~ Kaioken x2 - 16,000+
~ Kaioken x3 - 24,000+
---+ Kamehameha - 27,000+
~ Kaioken x4 - 32,000+
---+ Kamehameha - 36,000+

Vegeta
~ full power - 18,000
--- Gyarikku Hō - 27,000+
~ weakened (post Moon Ball) - 10,000
~ Great Ape - 100,000
~ weakened (post Great Ape) - 1,500

Spoiler:

Freeza arc



Arrival on Namek


Son Gohan
post Vegeta battle zenkai
~ full power - 1,500

Kuririn
~ weighted - 1,500

Banan
~ full power - 500

Sui
~ full power - 500

Vegeta
post Earth battle zenkai
~ full power - 24,000
--- Kitanai Hanabi - 30,000
post Zarbon battle zenkai
~ full power - 30,000

Kiwi
~ full power - 18,000

Orlen
~ full power - 1,500

Appule
~ Appule - 2,000
~ Lord Appule - 720,000

Namekian Warriors
~ suppressed - 1,000
~ full power - 3,000

Dodoria
~ full power - 20,000

Zarbon
~ Beautiful - 21,600
~ Monster - 28,800



The Ginyu Force


Kuririn
post Guru potential unlock
~ full power - 12,000
post Reacoom fight / vs. Ginyu
~ initial - 25,000

Son Gohan
post Guru potential unlock
~ full power - 12,800
post Reacoom fight zenkai
~ initial - 27,000

Vegeta
~ full power - 30,000
post Reacoom fight zenkai
~ full power (vs. Jeice) - 250,000

Gurd
~ full power - 10,000

Reacoom
~ full power - 36,000
--- Eraser Gun - 40,000

Jeice
~ full power - 36,000
--- Crusher Ball - 50,000

Butta
~ full power - 36,000

Son Goku
post 100x gravity training
~ suppressed - 5,000
~ bursts (vs. Ginyus) - 67,500
~ full power - 90,000
~ Kaioken x2 - 180,000
~ Kaioken x10 - 900,000

Captain Ginyu
~ full power - 120,000
in Son Goku's body
~ full power - 23,000

Nail
~ full power - 42,000



Battle with Freeza


Son Gohan
post Ginyu zenkai / potential unlocked
~ full power - 400,000
~ enraged - 1,000,000
post 2nd form Freeza fight zenkai
~ full power - 1,000,000
~ enraged - 2,250,000

Kuririn
power gradually increasing / potential unlocked
~ full power - 360,000

Vegeta
post Ginyu zenkai / fully rested
~ full power - 500,000
post Dende zenkai
~ full power - 3,600,000

Piccolo
post Kaio-sama's training
~ weighted - 216,000
~ full power - 270,000
post Nail assimilation
~ weighted - 1,440,000
~ full power - 1,800,000

Freeza
~ 1st form - 530,000
~ 2nd form (initial) - 1,060,000
~ 2nd form (powered-up): 1,350,000
~ 2nd form (full power) - 1,600,000
~ 3rd form - 2,400,000
~ True form (initial) - 5,400,000
~ True form (50%) - 120,000,000
~ True form (70%) - 168,000,000
~ True form - 240,000,000
--- Nova Strike - 562,500,000

Son Goku
post Ginyu zenkai
~ base - 5,000,000
~ Kaioken x20 - 100,000,000
---+ Kamehameha - 112,500,000
~ Super Saiyan - 250,000,000
--- Kamehameha - 540,000,000

Spoiler:

Cell arc



Freeza's Revenge


Freeza
post cybernetic enhancement power up
~ suppressed - 180,000,000
--- Supernova - 250,000,000
~ 100% power - 270,000,000

King Cold
~ full power - 200,000,000

Future Trunks
~ base - 9,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 450,000,000

Son Goku
post 1 year & 260 days Yardrat training
~ base - 10,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 500,000,000

Vegeta
post 130 days of rest, and 1 year & 130 days training on Earth and in space after Namek battle
~ full power - 8,000,000

Piccolo
post 260 days of rest and 1 year training on Earth after Namek battle
~ full power - 7,500,000

Son Gohan
post 260 days of rest/studying and 1 year studying after Namek battle
~ full power - 1,350,000

Kuririn
post 130 days dead, 130 days of rest, and 1 year of training after Namek battle
~ full power - 1,200,000

Tenshinhan
post 266 days training with Kaio-sama, and 1 year training on Earth after Namek battle
~ full power - 300,000

Yamcha
post 136 days training with Kaio-sama and 1 year & 130 days of rest after Namek battle
~ full power - 200,000

Chaozu
post 266 days training with Kaio-sama, and 1 year training on Earth after Namek battle
~ full power - 100,000



The Future


Future Piccolo
time of death
~ full power - 14,400,000

Future Vegeta
time of death
~ full power - 15,000,000

Future Son Gohan
~ base - 6,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 300,000,000
post left arm amputation
~ base - 8,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 400,000,000

Future Trunks
age 14
~ base - 120,000
~ Super Saiyan - 6,000,000
age 17
~ base - 9,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 450,000,000

Future #17
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)
~ 36% power - 360,000,000 (infinitely)

Future #18
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)



Arrival of the Androids


Son Goku
post 3 years Android training
~ base - 19,200,000
~ Super Saiyan - 960,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (sick) - 600,000,000

Piccolo
post 3 years Android training
~ suppressed - 14,400,000
~ full power - 720,000,000
post re-merge with Kami-sama
Kamiccolo
~ weighted - 1,440,000,000
~ full power - 1,600,000,000

Son Gohan
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 12,500,000

Kuririn
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 10,000,000

Yamcha
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 4,000,000

Tenshinhan
post 3 years Android training
~ full power - 6,000,000

Android #19
~ max power - 400,000,000
post Ki absorption
~ max power - 540,000,000

Vegeta
post 3 years Android training
~ base - 20,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 1,000,000,000
--- Big Bang Attack - 1,250,000,000

Android #20 (Dr. Gero)
~ max power - 500,000,000
post Ki absorption
~ max power - 600,000,000

Future Trunks
post training in the Future
~ base - 18,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 900,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 1,600,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #18
~ max power - 1,400,000,000 (infinitely)



Android #21, Cell


Piccolo
~ weighted - 1,440,000,000

Cell
post 4 years evolution / hatching
~ 1st form - 1,200,000,000
--- Kamehameha - 2,665,000,000



The Quest for Perfection


Piccolo
~ full power - 1,600,000,000
~ worn down - 1,440,000,000
--- Gekiretsu Kodan - 4,500,000,000

Android #17
~ max power - 1,600,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #18
~ max power - 1,400,000,000 (infinitely)

Android #16
~ max power - 7,200,000,000 (infinitely)

Cell
post mass humans absorbed
~ 1st form - 7,500,000,000
post Android #17 absorption
~ 2nd form (initial suppression) - 12,000,000,000



Hour of decision


Vegeta
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 12,500,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 20,000,000,000
--- Final Flash - 50,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 62,500,000,000

Future Trunks
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 240,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 12,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 2 - 19,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan Grade 3 - 60,000,000,000

Cell
~ 2nd form (initial suppression) - 12,000,000,000
~ 2nd form (full power) - 15,000,000,000
post Android #18 absorption
~ Perfect form (initial suppression) - 18,750,000,000
~ Perfect form (warming up suppression) - 40,000,000,000
~ Perfect form (power weighted) - 80,000,000,000



10 days peace


Son Goku
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ Super Saiyan (50%) - 50,000,000,000

Piccolo
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ full power - 30,000,000,000



The Cell Games


Mr. Satan
~ full power - 6.66

Kuririn
~ full power - 10,000,000

Yamcha
~ full power - 4,000,000

Tenshinhan
~ full power - 6,000,000

Son Goku
~ base - 2,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 100,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (post Kamehameha) - 80,000,000,000

Vegeta
post 2nd year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 1,250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 62,500,000,000

Future Trunks
post 2nd year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 1,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 60,000,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

Android #16
~ max power - 7,200,000,000 (infinitely)

Son Gohan
post 1 year Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 3,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 160,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 800,000,000,000

Cell
~ Perfect form (powered up suppression) - 112,500,000,000
~ Perfect form (full power) - 500,000,000,000
post Android #18 regurgitation
~ 2nd form - 15,000,000,000
post self-destruct zenkai
~ Perfect form (Super Perfect) - 750,000,000,000

Cell Jr.
~ full power - 64,000,000,000



Free the Future


Future Trunks
~ base - 1,200,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 60,000,000,000

Future #17
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)

Future #18
~ max power - 1,000,000,000 (infinitely)

Future Cell
post mass human absorption[/color]
~ 1st form - 3,6000,000,000

Spoiler:

Majin Boo arc



25th Tenkaichi Budokai


Son Goku
post 7 years training in the afterlife
~ base - 3,600,000,000

Vegeta
post 7 years training on Earth
~ base - 2,880,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 144,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 720,000,000,000

Son Gohan
post 7 years of inactivity
~ base - 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 120,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 600,000,000,000

Son Goten
~ base - 2,160,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 108,000,000,000

Trunks
~ base - 2,250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 112,500,000,000

Android #18
~ max power - 1,400,000,000 (infinitely)

Kuririn
post 4 years of light training & 3 years of inactivity
~ full power - 10,000,000

Piccolo
post 7 years of maintenance training
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

East Kaioshin
~ full power - 80,000,000,000

Kibito
~ full power - 1,000,000,000



Bobbidi's Spaceship


East Kaioshin
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

Pocus
~ full power - 1,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ base - 2,880,000,000

Yakon
~ full power - 3,000,000,000

Son Goku
~ base - 3,600,000,000
~ Super Saiyan (suppressed light demonstration) - 11,250,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 (suppressed burst) - 750,000,000,000

Dabra
~ full power - 112,500,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan - 120,000,000,000



Majin Boo awakens


Son Goten
~ Super Saiyan - 108,000,000,000

Trunks
~ Super Saiyan - 112,500,000,000

Kuririn
~ full power - 10,000,000

Piccolo
~ full power - 30,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ Super Saiyan - 120,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 600,000,000,000

East Kaioshin
~ full power - 50,000,000,000

Vegeta
post Majin power up
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 900,000,000,000
--- Final Explosion - 4,000,000,000,000

Majin Boo
South Kaioshin & Dai Kaioshin absorbed
~ initial suppression - 500,000,000,000
~ powered up - 1,000,000,000,000
~ full power - 3,000,000,000,000

Dabra
~ full power - 112,500,000,000

Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 900,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 3,600,000,000,000

Trunks and Goten metamoran fusion
Gotenks
~ base - 90,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 4,500,000,000,000



Fusion


Son Gohan
~ base - 2,400,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 180,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 600,000,000,000
post Zeta Sword training
~ base - 10,800,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 540,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2,700,000,000,000
post Elder Kaioshin potential unlock
~ Ultimate | full power - 9,000,000,000,000,000

Majin Boo
~ full power - 3,000,000,000,000
evil released
~ Good Boo - 1,200,000,000,000
~ Pure Evil Boo - 1,800,000,000,000

Son Goten
post 2 week Room of Spirit and Time training
~ Super Saiyan - 150,000,000,000

Trunks
post 2 week Room of Spirit and Time training
~ Super Saiyan - 150,000,000,000

Gotenks
post 2 week Room of Spirit and Time training
~ base - 7,500,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 375,000,000,000,000
--- Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack - 750,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 1,875,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 7,500,000,000,000,000

Evil Boo
Pure Evil Boo eats Good Boo
~ initial - 4,000,000,000,000
~ power up 1 (@ Lookout) - 8,000,000,000,000
~ power up 2 (vs. SS Gotenks) - 500,000,000,000,000
~ full power - 6,000,000,000,000,000
--- Mouth Blast - 6,750,000,000,000,000
~ Gotenks absorbed - 13,500,000,000,000,000
~ Gohan absorbed - 15,000,000,000,000,000
--- Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack - 30,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta and Goku metamoran fusion
Gogeta
~ base - 9,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 450,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 2,250,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 9,000,000,000,000,000

Vegeta and Goku potara fusion
Vegetto
~ base - 500,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 25,000,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 125,000,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 500,000,000,000,000,000



The Final Battle


Son Goku
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 3,600,000,000,000

Vegeta
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 900,000,000,000

Pure Boo
~ South Kaioshin absorbed - 12,000,000,000,000,000
removal of all influence[/color][/i]
~ full power - 3,375,000,000,000

Good Boo
~ full power - 1,200,000,000,000



End of Z


Son Goku
post 10 years training
~ base - 1,500,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan - 75,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 2 - 375,000,000,000,000
~ Super Saiyan 3 - 1,500,000,000,000,000

Son Gohan
~ full power - 9,000,000,000,000,000

Good Boo
~ full power - 1,200,000,000,000

Oob
Pure Boo reincarnated
~ enraged - 1,562,500,000,000
~ angry Kiai - 3,375,000,000,000

Your numbers look incredibly huge.
Man, I hate such ridiculous boosts, but anyways, lets forget about it and come to good points:

- Imperfect cell (post) is too high compared to Kamiccolo IMO
- Buu arc piccolo must be above SS trunks, or atleast very close, unless you believe that he did rigorous training in between buu arc & BoG, and buu arc piccolo must be dignificantly above CG Piccolo, not weaker than that.
- Why do you have a power level for every attack?
- I like your placement on freeza & goku
- The jumps from Namek to Arrival of trunks are too large and are not even implied (except piccolo). Gohan doesn't even take a note of goku being stronger than on namek, let alone THAT MUCH stronger.
- Nappa can't "suppress"
- South kaioshin buu can't be thousands of times stronger than kid buu, because kaioshin saw south kaioshin getting absorbed, and said that he "transformed into bulky one" but not said anything about his power being affected. If he literally got thousands of times stronger , then Kaioshin should've commented on it.

He's too high. He admitted inferiority to the Cell that wrecked Super Vegeta.

But he sensed bulked-up cell in the brief moment where cell bulks up and trunks powered down to base, and THEN commented that cell's perfect form "Is in-n-ncredible"

[apex_pretador]

@ analytic

I'll reply to you later.


Also, on Majin vegeta & goku vs SS2 CG gohan, yeah, they must be much stronger than him. Vegeta said he surpassed gohan.
Piccolo's statement was not that CG gohan is equal to them, he also said he perhaps surpassed gohan.
Also, remember that vegeta, unlike piccolo, had that power in his mind, everytime, everyday, while piccolo thought that it was a god-like power. He holds CG gohan in high regard. Remember how shocked he was when vegeta said gohan was killed?

[apex_pretador]

1) Imperfect cell (post) is too high compared to Kamiccolo IMO
2) Buu arc piccolo must be above SS trunks, or atleast very close, unless you believe that he did rigorous training in between buu arc & BoG, and buu arc piccolo must be dignificantly above CG Piccolo, not weaker than that.
3) Why do you have a power level for every attack?
4) I like your placement on freeza & goku
5) The jumps from Namek to Arrival of trunks are too large and are not even implied (except piccolo). Gohan doesn't even take a note of goku being stronger than on namek, let alone THAT MUCH stronger.
6) Nappa can't "suppress"
7) South kaioshin buu can't be thousands of times stronger than kid buu, because kaioshin saw south kaioshin getting absorbed, and said that he "transformed into bulky one" but not said anything about his power being affected. If he literally got thousands of times stronger , then Kaioshin should've commented on it.

1) What makes you say that?
2) Do you mean Kid Trunks? Also, I don't factor in newer material; manga only.
3) Why not? We've given numbers for the Kamehameha and Makankosappo in the beginning of the manga, so I don't mind coming up with some other ones for other attacks.
4) Thanks.
5) Trunks can take down Freeza in seconds, and Goku was even stronger than Trunks' initial expectations. Goku > Trunks >> Freeza >= Namek Goku.
6) He can't suppress in the sense that he can hide his battle power from a scouter, but he can definitely alter his power output.
7) I don't have South Kaioshin thousands of times stronger than Pure Boo.

1. You have him over 5x stronger than piccolo. I think that's just too high. He didn't do anything which needs that level of gap. Also why is he above #16 in the first place? #16 was ripping him apart, severely damaged him by hell's flash etc.

2. Buu arc piccolo should still be stronger than CG piccolo.
3. Makankosappo is a charged attack, and on KHH, well, 924 must be goku's FP, considering how at 23rd TB, an extremely injured , worn out piccolo was said to be much stronger than all humans + KAMI combined, and just one headbutt from goku changed it to near-death.
Also, if I'm not wrong, in its very first appearance, KHH is said to expel all of the power at once in form of an energy wave.
4. Also, I like base gotenks > Piccolo.
Base gotenks (pre) must be above SS trunks / goten as well. Gotenks thought that he has better chance to beat buu than either of SS kids.
5. Gohan stated that freeza is nowhere near what he showed his FP at namek.
Trunks >>> freeza <<< Namek 100% freeza
Also, no comment on powering up that much, or even powering up.
6. Ok, but I feel like 7500 is too high.
7. Yes you do :

~ South Kaioshin absorbed - 12,000,000,000,000,000
removal of all influence
~ full power - 3,600,000,000,000

[apex_pretador]

My numbers for everyone's favourite arc: BUU ARC (Note - I'll try to follow multipliers but NOT FOR GOTENKS)

For reference - Full power Perfect Cell = 100


Pre budokai

Spoiler:

Goten = 0.6 , SS = 30
Trunks = 0.68 , SS = 34
Gohan = 1.1 , SS = 55
Vegeta = 1.6 , SS = 80 (surpassed CG goku)
Piccolo = 68.5

25th TB

Spoiler:

Goten = 0.74 , SS = 37
Trunks = 0.8, SS = 40
Gohan = 1.4 , SS = 70 , SS2 = 140 (Can't maintain)
Vegeta = 1.64 , SS = 82 , SS2 = 164
Piccolo = 70
#18 = 18 (no pun intended)
Kaioshin = 120 (Implication by piccolo and SS2 gohan, but the truth is different)

(NOTE: Gohan got the most out of the training because he lost power due to slacking off, while others are nearing their limits)

Babidi's Ship

Spoiler:

Pui Pui = Too low to even register
Kibito = 1.2
Dabra (Suppressed blast) = 2 , expected power = 90 , FP = 101
Yakon = 2.2
Goku = 2 , SS = 100 , SS2 = 200
Vegeta (M) = 201
Kaioshin = 55 (Much weaker than dabra)
Gohan = 70 , SS2 = 140 , power vs dabra = 100 (SS with power of SS2 or whatever)

Buu appears

Spoiler:

Fat buu = 160 , powerup = 220 , powerup #2 = 290 = Full power
Goku / vegeta SS2 = 200
Goku SS3 = 400 (suppressed, vs fat buu) , 800 (Full Power)
Base Gotenks = 100 , SS = 300
Enraged fat buu = 350
Skinny buu = 280
Good buu = 200
Super buu = 1200 (Full power)
Gotenks (Post ROSAT) = 250 , SS = 750 , SS3 = 1500

Absorptions, and VEGETTO

Spoiler:

Super buu = 1200
Gotenks = 1500
Gohan = 1650
Buutenks = 2770 , Buuccolo = 1271.54
Buuhan = 2921.54
Goku = Vegeta = 2
Vegetto = 200 , SS vegetto = 10,000

The main battle, against final form of buu

Spoiler:

Buff buu = 1360
Kid buu = 850
South Kaioshin = 510
SS3 goku = 800 (Full power) , 900 (Hypothetical FP KHH with ki gathered)
Fat buu = 220
Vegeta = 200 (SS2) , 2 (base)
Kibitoshin = somewhere between 350 and 600

any feed-back will be appreciated

[apex_pretador]

This is for the multipliers theory defenders. How do you guys process Goku and Vegeta neglecting SSJ2 and SSJ3? Do you guys think SSJ is now x400 or more due to Mr.Toriyama words.

Here they are for so there's no misunderstanding:

Spoiler:

"Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are nothing more than powered-up variations of Super Saiyan. After the fight with Beerus, Goku realized that mastering his normal state and Super Saiyan would raise his level more and sap less strength, so I think he probably won’t become Super Saiyan 2 or 3 any more.
(From Kanzenshuu)

It seems he's keeping his word since the Saiyans haven't used the forms yet. So the tidbit should be taken as a fact, until proven wrong.

IMO, this is the reason how cabba can be even with vegeta in base, and be nothing to vegeta as a SS.

Also, one more thing to add to your argument, say if base goku was 1/50 of SS goku = SSG goku, who was able to fight back against (Lying) 100% beerus, then if goku had gone 100x his base by going SS2, then he could have one-shotted the so called "100%" beerus.

Also, whis specifically emphasised on improving base strength than SS strength. If, say improving base strength already improves SS strength 50 times over , then why was it specifically emphasized only in whis training, and not before?
Even in time-chamber training (Cell) , neither goku nor vegeta think about "improving base" if it yields 50x the result.

[apex_pretador]

Also, whis specifically emphasised on improving base strength than SS strength. If, say improving base strength already improves SS strength 50 times over , then why was it specifically emphasized only in whis training, and not before?
Even in time-chamber training (Cell) , neither goku nor vegeta think about "improving base" if it yields 50x the result.

Maybe they thought mastering Super Saiyan was the best way to move forward. Even if they get stronger in their normal forms, Super Saiyan would still put a huge stress on them.

but grade 2 (which is implied to be more stressful than regular SS) Vegeta fought semi-cell for a long time and still had stamina enough to fight and beat a stronger cell (PC expected). He then fights suppressed PC, and isn't running out of stamina or feels much stress either, and even after getting badly stomped, he still has got stamina enough to do a final flash.

So, grade 2 has excellent showing, atleast a showing that's not bad.
If grade 2 was really stronger than SSFP (Which goku used after mastering the form), then goku would've used it when he got openings for attacking cell. He did seem to try his hardest to kill cell and he'd not have left an option to further amplify his chances if any.