Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

Bringing up another point here - Freeza 100% > Super Saiyan goku.

Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga). However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.
So, 100% damaged freeza =< SS Goku (new) << 100% Healthy freeza

I generally go with the idea that the previous beatings Freeza got ended up diminishing his stamina rather than affecting his actual power output.

Why so? Where do the 20 million points (power loss) come from?

Goku outright says he's the strongest in the universe now, which was the entire point.

Goku says freeza is the strongest in the universe.

Freeza 100% and super saiyan goku fought evenly before freeza got tired (after using his force-field / after porunga)

.
At no point in the fight were they even. Goku was kicking the shit out of him.

If anything, Freeza had the advantage beofre porunga appeared. You need to check the fight again.

However , whatever power he lost due to
- Genki dama, which nearly killed him
- Beatdown from newly transformed super saiyan goku, when he was still at 50%
was not recovered.

He lost no power. Since he explicitly states that he was using 100% of his power, not some arbitrary number below 100% because he couldn't reach 100%.

[/quote]
Where do the ~24 million PL points come from? Or you are saying that freeza took 0 damage from genki dama? Despite him saying he did nearly die? Or he wasn't referring to his "current" 100%?

He lost power, he admits it himself. We have to take the 100% in context, we can't just ignore everything that happened beforehand.

There's no context to ignore. 100% is 100%. When Freeza said 100% power, he meant 100% power, likely because his transformation rejuvenated him the same way his previous ones did.

He never transformed after his FINAL FORM. Final form is final form. 100% varies with condition, but final form is always final form, unless freeza had an ultimate evolution.

Also, I don't remember Freeza eating a senzu thet goku threw at him so that he could recover his energy. Am I missing something?

I wouldn't say it was one-sided, but Goku did have the advantage throughout the fight. In fact, the only time I saw Freeza really get the drop on Goku was during that Kamehameha/Barrier struggle that the two had, and that was because Freeza ducked around it and smacked into Goku while he was off-guard.

Goku NEVER had the advantage before freeza's stamina started to drop (after porunga).

As far as I'm concerned, Goku surpassed Freeza in that fight, period. Regardless of whether or not Goku and Freeza were at their best or if they were weakened from the previous fight, it wouldn't fit the theme that Goku only won because of Freeza's previous injuries.

I'm not saying goku only won due to injuries of freeza. Even if they both were fresh, Goku would've won like he did in RoF, which was made to be an alternate take on freeza arc IMO.

Sometimes you have to look past the in-universe conditions and remember that this is a work of fiction, and that the author has a reason for writing events the way he does.

The author had a reason to only get freeza down after stamina drop, not without that.
The author had a reason to have the fight even before that point
The author had a reason to show freeza heavily, HEAVILY damaged
The author had a reason to ask gohan say freeza is not even close to namek levels when he was fodderized by trunks

The point of the fight was to show that Goku well and truly surpassed Freeza, that he triumphed over the one who brought his people to near extinction and the one who killed his best friend.

Goku has shown again and again that he doesn't need power advantage to truly surpass someone.

It's the same argument I make when people question the base Goku can't beat Freeza thing from Battle of Gods. If the statement were untrue, it would've been contested or proven wrong at some point. What reason wold the author have to put it in there and never have anyone question it if it weren't true?

Not sure how base goku << Freeza situation relates here

After reading the Strength Checker again. I pretty much agree with RandomGuy here. Freeza has to be in his 100% Power at that time, or else this line wouldn't sense.

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”

Not to mention in the Mecha Arc, Freeza didn't said anything about how he was beaten by Goku because was injured or something.

That can refer to the current best / current 100%.
I fail to see how the incredibly huge power loss from genki dama is recovered.

I agree. Freeza had to be at 100%, otherwise it wouldn't make sense IMO. 100% means 100%. Freeza could have lost a bit of power after his Nova Strike though.

I just respectfully disagree that SSJ Goku was owning Freeza from the beginning, mainly after reading this thread:

http://dbzf.co.uk/topic/8397852/3/

and power loss is power loss unless healed by senzu or dende. How was the power loss healed?

[apex_pretador]

Why so? Where do the 20 million points (power loss) come from?

It comes out of his reserves. And the reason I go with this is because it doesn't make sense for Freeza to be at less than his full power with quotes like this

Power loss is power loss, it can't be filled with reserves.
For example,
Perfect cell (before eating senzu) full power <<< Full power perfect cell, otherwise he wouldn't bother eating the senzu if the power loss in goku battle couldve been recovered by ONLY his reserves.

And the power loss was so severe that gohan doesn't note freeza's power-up before he surpasses his 70%, so 70% freeza (injured) ~ 50% Freeza (healthy).
So, that's nearly 20% power loss.


Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P6.2
Context: Freeza still powering up
Gohan: “To top it off, it looks like Freeza’s ki is getting bigger again…! What’s happening!?”


The damage from genki dama is so severe that freeza notes it:

Chapter: 317 (DBZ 123), P10.3, P12.1
Context: after getting hit with the Genki-Dama
Freeza: “Ev-even I thought I would die…I, the great Freeza, was pushed to the brink of death…[ ] Even having taken this damage, I can still easily defeat all of you!”



Now, some take on other quotes:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P2.4
Context: as Freeza powers up
Goku: “His ki is swelling up and becoming full…So he’s finally bringing out this ‘100% power’ thing of his, huh?...”


That means his ki is becoming full in the sense that he is no longer suppressed.
Ki sensing can tell in many cases if the opponent is suppressed or not.

Another quote, which supports my point that freeza and SS Goku were even despite freeza being damaged:

Chapter 326 (DBZ 132), P4.1-5
Context: after Goku dodges his homing blast
Freeza: “An afterimage, huh?...You’re pretty good, aint’cha?...”
Goku: “Like I thought, I don’t have any desire to fight you as you are now…With you pinning your hopes on a worthless technique like that…If you really want to settle the score with me, recover your stamina and polish your skills.”
Freeza: “Yo-you’re calling my technique worthless?...Well then, how about two of them?!”


Goku believes that just by improving the stamina and Skills-techniques, freeza can settle the score with goku, which means goku never had the power advantage to begin with.


now, the most used up quote in this thread:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P5.2
Context: Freeza’s still powering up
Freeza: “85%...90…”
Goku: “Freeza…The reason I’m waiting for you to reach full power…is because I want to beat you down when you’re at your best…That way, you’ll have no regrets as a warrior…You want to try testing out your full power too, right? If you didn’t, you would have just fired at the planet again and ended it…”
Note: Goku might be talking about himself, or both he and Freeza, not having any regrets as warriors.

See ^^^



Another hint that freeza > Goku:

Chapter: 321 (DBZ 127), P3.5
Context: as he lets Freeza power all the way up
Goku: “I really might not get this chance again…The chance to see the strongest bastard in the universe at full power…”


Goku calling freeza still the strongest in universe.

[apex_pretador]

How strong do y'all think SS Gohan was during the Cell Games? I'm liking the idea that he wasn't too far behind Perfect Cell's full strength, and that if he wasn't such a bitch so hesitant, he would've put up an excellent fight. Heck, if Goku didn't grab the idiot ball and give Cell a Senzu, Gohan might've won without another character dying to serve as the emotional trigger for one of his temper tantrums.

i think he wasn't too far from goku at cell games.

He was nearly killed by cell's bearhug when he was at the same strength he was against goku.

[apex_pretador]

Someone has an estimation about Piccolo's current powers? He held his own against a tired Frost and I doubt Frost was that much weaker than his full power, since as far as I remember it wasn't stated he was weakened. Is Piccolo above base Goku and Vegeta?

Piccolo is definitely below base saiyans.
Frost was tired, as well as holding back.

Also, piccolo is just that good of a fighter.

[apex_pretador]

Where do you feel SP Cell falls under? I keep thinking in the neighborhood of 10 Billion (With Buu Arc SSJ3 Goku at 40 Billion for perspective).

slightly below 2 billion.

This forum just got less nice.

To whom may care for a debate. There's no x10 vs x50 debate. I'll try to explain my interpretation to the best of my ability. The quote for reference: Only, at the time, it was considered that his strength would increase 50-fold when he became a Super Saiyan, but that was a bit of an exaggeration. My feeling as the creator is that, while drawing it, I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point.

The first part is clear, he feels like 50-fold like some have determined(I assume Shueisha is the only source for that), was an exaggeration. The second part he breaks it down. "While drawing it", I assume he's thinking back and telling us his thoughts while he was drawing Super Saiyan.
"I felt that it was about a 10-fold change from what it was up to that point". If he just wanted to say it was 10 fold, the last words are redundant. But I think they mean something, which connects with the "while drawing it" part.
While doing the SSJ, he remembered about the Kaioken. He had to, unless his forgetfulness was so severe he forgot chapters he wrote months/weeks back. So while current Mr.Toriyama doesn't remember about the Kaioken x20, he remembers about his thought process at the time, while drawing it; a 10-fold change. Which I interpret as being x30.

Even if people disagree, is my interpretation at least logical?

I like your interpretation.

[apex_pretador]

Which power level SSJ Goku would have after his first attempt in the Super Saiyan God ritual?

You mean when he absorbed everyone's ki before "god"?

Well, Points to consider:

- SS3 goku was the top dog on the planet at BoG. Vegeta implied that no one could beat someone who 2-shotted Goku, (which includes gohan + Gotenks) and no one could two shot him (which includes buuhan). So, at the very minimum , goku is in the league of buu arc Gohan/gotenks if not above them.

- AT said everyone was at their best in BoG, that includes gohan. Vegeta called goku the strongest, so he was stronger than gohan.

- Rageta, who was DEFINITELY stronger than gohan, was said to surpass "even goku" not "even gohan" further solidifying my point that goku was the strongest there.

- All this is in line with ggoku's "i'll train to surpass buu" from buu arc.


- Rageta was quite significantly stronger than goku, who was stronger than gohan. I guess he is atleast around buuhan, if not quite a lot above him

- Rageta was fodderized by beerus, who notes that he didnt need even 10% to deal with them.

- Everyone thought that goku had a chance at beerus now, except piccolo (who thought that goku just got stronger & not god, plus he might have heard beerus saying that he never used 10% power), including goku, who himself said BoG vegetto is nothing to beerus.

- The above point and scaling from rageta, puts him quite a lot above vegetto. I see him around SS3 vegetto at buu arc.

[apex_pretador]

- SS3 goku was the top dog on the planet at BoG. Vegeta implied that no one could beat someone who 2-shotted Goku, (which includes gohan + Gotenks) and no one could two shot him (which includes buuhan). So, at the very minimum , goku is in the league of buu arc Gohan/gotenks if not above them.

- AT said everyone was at their best in BoG, that includes gohan. Vegeta called goku the strongest, so he was stronger than gohan.

- Rageta, who was DEFINITELY stronger than gohan, was said to surpass "even goku" not "even gohan" further solidifying my point that goku was the strongest there.

- All this is in line with ggoku's "i'll train to surpass buu" from buu arc.

How the hell does all that tie in with base Goku being weaker than Freeza?
At the very MAX:

Goku= 120,000,000
Goku (SSJ)= 6,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ2)= 12,000,000,000
Goku (SSJ3)= 48,000,000,000

Also, are you implying that Base Gotenks < Base Goku?
When Gotenks surpassed Vegeta in the Buu Saga who was equal to Goku.

No, I'm not saying base gotenks < base goku.
I'm saying SS3 gotenks > SS3 goku. SS3 is stated to be a peak of a saiyan's power level, and goku simply raised his peak. When SS2 vegeta raged, he powered up a lot, but that doesnt mean that base vegeta somehow became SS2 tier, no.

I think
Base goku < Freeza < Base gotenks < SS goku < SS gotenks = SS2 goku < SS3 gotenks < SS3 goku

[apex_pretador]

So, I have been reworking my battle powers and wondered where do you guys put the following people:

Future Gohan:
80 million
One armed - 96 million

Future Trunks (Mecha arc):
100 million
Future Vegeta:
No way to tell, but if I had to guess, then it would depend if he achieved super saiyan, which I think not, so I put him at 4 million
Future Piccolo:
7 Million
Goku (Mecha arc):
110 million

Freeza is 120 million at his peak when undamaged, while freeza at his peak ON NAMEK is slightly below 100 million. (reference)

[apex_pretador]

So how does everyone reconcile Goku and Vegeta's base powers in Super? I mean you have Goku going toe to toe with Final Form Freeza in base in one arc, but then in the Universe 6 and Future Trunks arcs they aren't implied to be that powerful. I mean Goku needed SSJ to beat Final Form Frost, who then had a difficult fight with Piccolo. I know Frost was stated to have lost stamina, but at worst he's maybe at 50%, which means base Goku and Piccolo shouldn't be drastically different. And this is even after Goku has trained for 3 more years in the RoSaT since fighting Freeza. I'm just at a loss when it comes scaling and interested to hear theories.

Slightly above buuhan, below vegetto.

[apex_pretador]

Okay, so I've been revising my power levels and I really wanted to include power levels for the entire manga. Problem is, the officially given numbers for the bits before the Saiyan arc don't really match up with certain power statements for that period. An infamous example being this.

Chapter: 143, P12.3
Context: Piccolo continues to outclass Goku
Piccolo: “Hohhohhoh…You have no chance of winning, no matter how you struggle, and you can’t run away either. It seems all that’s left for you is the road to death. I’m still not even putting out half of my power. Too bad for you…so then, what will you do?”

However, the officially given numbers peg pre-Super God Water Goku as being 180 and Young King Piccolo being 260, which is blatantly contradictory. So do I shrug my shoulders and use the official numbers anyway or do I scrap them and pick some that match up with the manga quotes and implications? However, I think I found a solution that works with both the manga and the official numbers and it comes from here.

In the early portions of Dragon Ball, the characters’ training focused mostly on increasing their physical strength and stamina, but from the time of Goku’s training under God and onwards, much more focus began to be placed on cultivating ki. [ ] While at the start of the series ki-based attacks were considered very advanced and rarely seen (Kame-Sen’nin says it took him 50 years to invent the Kamehameha), as the characters’ ki power increased, they became able to perform ki-based attacks with greater and greater ease, to the point where the generic ki blast became a standard attack.

Simply put, during the early portions of the series, characters weren't able to draw forth the full measure of their Ki, or at least, to the extent that they can during the later portions of the series. Ki control is horribly rare an is usually used in special techniques, like the Kamehameha, Dodonpa, Bukujutsu, etc. However, at some point (most likely after the charatcers get trained by God and Mr. Popo), characters learn to use their Ki much more freely, to enhance their strength, speed, and durability in the heat of battle. Ki blasts are thrown around like confetti.

But that hasn't happened yet. My idea is that, at this point in the narrative, Goku and friends can only draw forth their full power whilst using their special techniques. So while, Goku's maximum power may be 180, the power that he's capable of using in normal combat is decidedly lower. Let's say, his resting power his half that at 90. On the other hand, King Piccolo (who likely remembers the training that the Son of Katatz received from the previous God) can utilize his Ki to the fullest. This is somewhat supported by how in the same V-Jump scan that provides the 180 and 260 numbers, also pegs 18-year-old Goku as being 910, which is a lot larger than the 416 number had had during his fight with Raditz, but slightly less than the 924 number that he had whilst using the Kamehameha. Anyway, those are my thoughts, anyone else have something to say on the subject?

One more thing that might support your point is that kamehameha is stated to release all the energy at once by concentrating it, plus this way you can also solve the issue of yamcha, krillin and tien being stronger than king piccolo.

[apex_pretador]

For the anime:

If Vegeta [Champa arc] is a 100. Where do this characters fit in?

Final Form Freeza:
Gotenks [Super Saiyan 3]:
First Form Freeza:
Mister Buu:
Gohan [Super Saiyan, RoF arc]:

(Base?)

Freeza Final form (suppressed) - 80
SS3 gotenks - 48
Freeza first form - 20
Buu = 15
Gohan = 17, ki drained = 13, enraged = 40
(I don't follow strict multipliers, especially not for gotenks)

[apex_pretador]

He did the same against Semi-Perfect Cell, he had to go Super Vegeta when Super Saiyan would get the job done. He just wanted to pummel Cell.

With Vegeta I apply a similar logic as I do with why I think Vegetto's base form isn't anywhere close to Boohan: if they were that tough, they'd just use base to win their fights. After all, Vegeta thoroughly humiliated Pui Pui without using SS but as you said, he needlessly powered up to trounce Cell when he didn't need to so it can go both ways. Although, with Cell I'd argue that he wanted to test his new form out in live combat, hence why he opted to use it with Cell.

Considering the fact that Cell did not take SS vegeta as a serious threat till he powered up to Super vegeta form, I'm inclined to beileve that it isn't the case.
Also, if you want to bring out trunks's statement "He is already using that" , then remember that trunks is inexperienced and might have not comprehended the fact that cell was indeed suppressed, and it still doesn't necessarily put vegeta superior to cell, possibly around the same level as suppressed cell.

[apex_pretador]

The assumption that characters are inexperienced, lying, etc..., is one of the worst arguments possible. Because this type of lines exist solely for the author to provide information to the reader, or else everything would be a mess!
Imagine if you started doubting of everyone. Goku lied once about his power, does that give me an excuse to doubt every single line uttered by him?

So Trunks line, since it wasn't disproved later should be taken as a fact. It's possible Semi-Perfect after powering up is stronger than SSJ Vegeta, he wasn't before. It doesn't matter for my point, which is that Vegeta went above what he needed to destroy Cell.

ekrolo2 example with Pocus is different because he's just a random guy. Vegeta doesn't care about humiliating him.
With Frost and Cell, he preludes the whoop-ass and shows his distaste towards his opponent. His beef with Cell was that he claimed superiority and had Vegeta's cells in him, Vegeta didn't enjoy that.
With Frost, he purposely asked the referee to put him back in just to destroy him.

Even if you totally ignore my arguments about trunks saying it, that won't matter here, because it only suggests that cell is not too much for SS vegeta, not that vegeta can easily defeat him. I brought it out only because it compares Vegeta (current state) to cell (current state). However, vegeta's experience can tell him that cell is dangerous, that's why he is "transforming so soon". He can't risk dueling it out with him in his current state.


Anyways, what are you two arguing about regarding frost?


EDIT:

Take a current example, Beerus 10% line. Now that line sole objective was to inform the audience about power, the same way Trunks line did, both characters even though/talked to themselves, so there's not even any possibility to discuss the intention of their words.
What did some people suggested to make sense of the anime: "oh, Beerus likely lied". How does that make sense? See what I mean?

Beerus said he has NOT used 10% power in a long time, which means he has not used it, simple. I dont know why people take it as "beerus used 10% against vegeta".

[apex_pretador]

I was actually asking for their numbers before they all trained with God.

Oh, I never done those. Let me look at the 23rd TB numbers for them and adjust.

Yajirobe
- 95
Chiaotzu
- 128

Something like this. Note that these numbers are to work together with the infamous Piccolo Daimao line.

Why do you think chiaotzu is stronger than Yajirobe?

On to other business, does anyone have any numbers for Chiaotzu and Yajirobe for the start of the Saiyan arc?

Oh yeah, why not.

I have both of them at 140.

[apex_pretador]

What numbers would you give the following characters:
1.Goku (Buu Saga)
2.Gotenks (Buu Saga, Pre RoSaT)
3.Gotenks (Buu Saga, Post RoSaT)
4.Goku (BoG)
5.Gotenks (BoG)

In billions
1. Goku SS3 = 10
2. SS gotenks = 4
3. SS gotenks = 8 , SS3 gotenks = 20
4. Goku SS3 = 22
5. Gotenks SS3 = 20

[apex_pretador]

So, I thought it would be a fun idea to try and create a power level list that tries to keep power levels as low as possible, while still keeping things like multipliers consistent. In order to do this, I'm ignoring pretty much every stated power level except the levels for the heroes at the beginning of Z. Again, this is just a list I threw together for fun. I'll be changing nearly all multipliers for transformations. I may make another list like this in the future without consistent multipliers, so please try not to judge this list on its multipliers, unless there's a way I can reduce a set multiplier. Feedback is appreciated.

My "Low as Possible" with Consistent Multipliers Power Level List

Multipliers
Oozaru - 5x base
SSJ - 40x base
SSJ Grade 2 - 1.25 x SSJ
SSJ Grade 3 - 1.75 x SSJ
SSJ2 - 2x SSJ
SSJ3 - 1.5x SSJ2
Fusion Dance - 7.5x Fighter with lower ki

Saiyan Arc
[spoiler]Son Goku (Weighted) - 334
Unweighted - 416
Kamehameha - 600

Piccolo (Weighted) - 322
Full Power - 408
Makankosappo (1st Try) - 850
Makankosappo (2nd Try) - 950

Raditz - 800
Injured - 600

Son Gohan - 1
Enraged - 850

Tenshinhan - 250
Kuririn - 206
Yamcha - 177
Chaozu - 145

King Enma - 1000
North Kaio - 1400

1 Year Later
Piccolo - 1350
Tenshinhan - 1000
Yamcha - 840
Chaozu - 500
Yajirobe - 600


Saibamen - 750
Nappa - 1750
Full Power - 2100

Son Goku - 2500
Kaioken x 2 - 5000
Kaioken x 3 - 7500
Kaioken x 4 - 10,000
Genki Dama - 25,000

Vegeta - 5600
Hurt from Kamehameha - 4000
Oozaru - 20,000
Post Oozaru - 3000
Post Genki Dama - 1600

Kuririn - 975
Weak Genki Dama - 5000
Son Gohan - 625
Enraged - 1450
Injured Oozaru - 2500[/spoiler]

Namek Arc
[spoiler]Kuririn - 1100
Potential Unlocked - 4200
Ginyu-Goku Fight - 7500
Son Gohan - 1250
Potential Unlocked - 4800
Ginyu-Goku Fight - 8000

Vegeta - 7500
Post Zarbon Zenkai - 9200
Post Recoome Zenkai - 38,000

Namekian Warriors (Suppressed) - 600 each
Full Power - 1500 each

Freeza Army - 700 each
Cui - 5650
Dodoria - 6250
Zarbon - 6600
Transformed - 9900

Recoome, Jeice, Burter and Nail - 12,000 each
Guldo - 3300

Ginyu - 21,000
In Goku's Body - 7200

Son Goku - 17,500
Kaioken x 2 - 35,000
In Ginyu's Body, Injured - 3500

Freeza (Suppressed) - 27,000[/spoiler]

Freeza Arc
[spoiler]Kuririn - 15,000
Son Gohan - 20,000
Enraged (VS Second Form Freeza) - 54,000
Zenkai - 30,000
Enraged (VS Third Form Freeza) - 84,000

Vegeta - 38,000
Zenkai - 125,000

Piccolo (Weighted) - 20,000
Post Nail Fusion, Weighted - 64,000
Full Power - 80,000

Freeza - 45,000
Second Form (Initial) - 60,000
Second Form, Full Power - 75,000
Third Form - 100,000
True Form (3%) - 165,000
True Form (50%) - 2,750,000
True Form (100%) - 5,500,000

Son Goku - 160,000
Kaioken x 10 - 1,600,000
Kaioken x 20 - 3,200,000
SSJ - 6,400,000[/spoiler]

Trunks Arc
[spoiler]Mecha Freeza - 3,200,000
Unseen Full Power - 6,400,000
King Cold - 4,000,000

Son Gohan - 28,000
Kuririn - 22,500
Tenshinhan - 12,000
Yamcha - 8000
Chaozu - 5,000

Vegeta - 145,000
Piccolo (Weighted) - 140,000

Trunks - 175,000
SSJ - 7,000,000

Son Goku - 195,000
SSJ - 7,800,000[/spoiler]

Android Arc
[spoiler]Son Goku - 230,000
SSJ - 9,200,000
SSJ with Heart Disease - 4,600,000
Vegeta - 235,000
SSJ - 9,400,000
Trunks - 205,000
SSJ - 8,200,000

Piccolo (Weighted) - 5,800,000
Full Power - 7,250,000

Son Gohan - 130,000
Kuririn - 100,000
Tenshinhan - 55,000
Yamcha - 30,000
Chaozu - 20,000

#19 - 4,200,000
Energy Absorbed - 5,500,000
Dr. Gero - 4,800,000
Energy Absorbed - 6,000,000

#18 - 12,500,000
#17 - 13,500,000

Kamicollo (Weighted) - 11,600,000
Full Power - 14,500,000
Post fighting #17 - 12,000,000

Imperfect Cell - 9,600,000
Humans Absorbed - 17,500,000
Semi Perfect Cell - 23,500,000
Full Power - 27,000,000
Perfect Form (Warming Up) - 39,000,000
Bulked Up - 50,000,000

#16 - 16,500,000

Shin Kikoho - 21,000,000

Vegeta - 650,000
SSJ - 26,000,000
SSJ Grade 2 - 32,500,000
Trunks - 600,000
SSJ - 24,000,000
SSJ Grade 2 - 30,000,000
SSJ Grade 3 - 42,000,000[/spoiler]

Cell Games
[spoiler]Son Goku - 2,200,000
50% SSJ - 44,000,000
SSJ - 88,000,000
Kamehameha - 100,000,000

Son Gohan - 2,750,000
SSJ - 110,000,000
SSJ2 - 220,000,000

Perfect Cell (VS Goku/Gohan) - 97,500,000
Full Power - 150,000,000
Bulked Up - 175,000,000
Super Perfect - 210,000,000

Vegeta - 1,700,000
SSJ - 68,000,000
Trunks - 1,600,000
SSJ - 64,000,000
Piccolo - 38,000,000

Cell Juniors - 72,000,000 each

Mr. Satan - 7

Back to the Future
#17 - 10,800,000
#18 - 10,000,000

Imperfect Cell - 15,000,000

Trunks - 1,600,000
SSJ - 64,000,000
Three Years Later - 1,900,000
SSJ - 78,000,000[/spoiler]

Boo Arc Part 1
[spoiler]Son Gohan - 2,100,000
SSJ - 84,000,000
25th Budokai - 2,350,000
SSJ - 94,000,000
SSJ2 - 188,000,000

Son Goten - 800,000
SSJ - 32,000,000
25th Budokai - 1,000,000
SSJ - 40,000,000
Trunks - 900,000
SSJ - 36,000,000
25th Budokai - 1,050,000
SSJ - 42,000,000

Son Goku - 3,250,000
SSJ - 130,000,000
SSJ2 - 260,000,000
SSJ3 - 390,000,000

Vegeta - 2,600,000
SSJ - 104,000,000
SSJ2 - 208,000,000
Majin SSJ - 130,000,000
Majin SSJ2 - 260,000,000

Piccolo (Weighted) - 40,000,000
Kaioshin - 70,000,000
Kibito - 2,250,000
#18 - 12,500,000
Kuririn - 82,000
Yamcha - 25,000

Mr. Satan - 6.5
Videl - 7.2
Post Training - 8

Spopovitch and Yamu - 10 each

Pui-Pui - 9,000
Yakon - 3,600,000
Dabura - 85,000,000

Majin Boo (Initial) - 200,000,000
Full Power - 325,000,000

Gotenks - 7,500,000
SSJ - 300,000,000[/spoiler]

Boo Arc Part 2
[spoiler] Good Boo - 140,000,000
Pure Evil Boo - 185,000,000

Goten and Trunks (Post Training) - 1,400,000 and 1,450,000 respectively
Gotenks - 10,050,000
SSJ - 420,000,000
SSJ3 - 1,280,000,000

Son Gohan (Z-Sword Training) - 4,075,000
Potential Unlocked - 1,630,000,000

Vegetto - 175,500,000
SSJ - 7,040,000,000

Evil Boo - 1,120,000,000
Gotenks Absorbed - 2,400,000,000
Piccolo and the boys Absorbed - 1,153,000,000
Gohan Absorbed - 2,750,000,000
Piccolo Absorbed - 1,170,000,000
Buff Boo - 1,500,000,000
Pure Boo - 390,000,000

Hypothetical Gogeta - 19,500,000
SSJ - 780,000,000
SSJ2 - 1,560,000,000
SSJ3 - 2,340,000,000

Tenshinhan - 68,000

Kibito Kai - 175,000,000
SSJ3 Goku - 390,000,000
SSJ2 Vegeta - 208,000,000
Good Boo (Full Power) - 325,000,000[/spoiler]

Freeza first form is stated to be 530,000 and second form at over 1 million. You shouldn't change it, otherwise this list is as meaningless as Batman's power level

How about some hypothetical scenarios?

What would the numbers be of:
- Tenshinhan and Kuririn after training together for one year in the RoSaT, in the window before the Cell Games.
- Yajirobe after training for a year with Kaio, after the Saiyan Arc.
- Tao Pai Pai and Chi-Chi, after receiving training from Kami for a year. Post-23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Everyone please post your before numbers and justify it to generate discussion. I think this is an interesting conversation to have.

Tenshinhan - around 2 million
Krillin - Around 2.8 million

They both were below first form freeza before they started training. However, Tien soon cataches up on Krillin and even surpases him in 3 months of training. But, soon he maxes out, and his gain start to no longer matter. He trains harder & Harder, but no result. On the other hand, Krillin takes it easy and is focuesd on impriving his techniques and learning new techniques, slowly and steadily gaining up again. He cataches up and surpasses Tien again, and by the time they come out of the chamber, they are now powerful enough to put up a fight against Base saiyans when they team up.
However, the most powerful weapon is not the power, but the techniques learnt. Tien has learnt to focus Kikoho through multi-form technique, without risking his own life, and Krillin has also learnt Kikoho , and mixed it with his own technique to create a homing kikoho blast.

assuming ONLY Yajirobe trains with kaio.
Yajirobe - 3016, Kaio-Ken - 6032

Nothing notable, lame jokes of king kai, but he deemed yajirobe capable of controlling kaio-ken.

Assuming ChiChi and Tao train with each other without any issue
Cybrog Tao Pai Pai - 250
ChiChi - 367

ChiChi gains far more than cyborg tao because Tao's mechanical enhancements and ego hinder him.
By the time they leave, however, Tao Rivals god, and ChiChi has far surpassed him.

[apex_pretador]

Freeza first form is stated to be 530,000 and second form at over 1 million. You shouldn't change it, otherwise this list is as meaningless as Batman's power level

I believe he said that the only numbers he'd be sticking too are the first ones that the heroes are pegged at at the beginning of the series.

Oh, my bad I didn't notice it.
But the point still stands.

[apex_pretador]

Tien said that Goku had improved since he fought King Piccolo though his speed has stayed the same. Tien was knocking him around once he got serious and before Goku removed his weights.

23rd Goku > 23rd Tien > 23rd Goku (with weights) > Kid Goku = King Piccolo

Yet those power levels suggest King Piccolo > DBZ Tien

This is true.

You should also add in the fact that Kami thought Yamcha was impressive, while (tired, but after a possible Zenkai) post daimao goku was not impressive in the slightest for him. And piccolo thought it would be hard to take over the world after Krillin gave him trouble.

I do not think that Young daimao's power is significant any more when the tournament reaches semifinals.

I was wondering about Frieza. Where do you guys put

• 2nd form Frieza (Namek)
• Mecha-Frieza
• 1st form Frieza (RoF)
• 4th form Frieza (RoF)
• Golden Frieza

Personally I put 2nd form Frieza as 1,060,000, a simple x2. As for RoF, I kicked his 1st and 4th forms up by a factor of 10,000 because of that one place (I don't quite remember exactly what it was from, but we have discussed it on Kanzenshuu before) where he said "My power level is 5,300,000,000" (gojuusanoku instead of gojuusanman). But what do you think?

2nd form freeza at 1.2 million

Mecha freeza around 50 million (no, i do not consider mecha freeza being stronger than FP freeza at all, due to Gohan's comment, due to his battle against trunks and performance of 100% freeza against SS goku)

RoF 1st form freeza around 10 billion

4th form freeza is too high to be here

Golden freeza = incalculable.

[apex_pretador]

Tien said that Goku had improved since he fought King Piccolo though his speed has stayed the same. Tien was knocking him around once he got serious and before Goku removed his weights.

23rd Goku > 23rd Tien > 23rd Goku (with weights) > Kid Goku = King Piccolo

Yet those power levels suggest King Piccolo > DBZ Tien

This is true.

You should also add in the fact that Kami thought Yamcha was impressive, while (tired, but after a possible Zenkai) post daimao goku was not impressive in the slightest for him. And piccolo thought it would be hard to take over the world after Krillin gave him trouble.

I do not think that Young daimao's power is significant any more when the tournament reaches semifinals.

I was wondering about Frieza. Where do you guys put

• 2nd form Frieza (Namek)
• Mecha-Frieza
• 1st form Frieza (RoF)
• 4th form Frieza (RoF)
• Golden Frieza

Personally I put 2nd form Frieza as 1,060,000, a simple x2. As for RoF, I kicked his 1st and 4th forms up by a factor of 10,000 because of that one place (I don't quite remember exactly what it was from, but we have discussed it on Kanzenshuu before) where he said "My power level is 5,300,000,000" (gojuusanoku instead of gojuusanman). But what do you think?

2nd form freeza at 1.2 million

Mecha freeza around 50 million (no, i do not consider mecha freeza being stronger than FP freeza at all, due to Gohan's comment, due to his battle against trunks and performance of 100% freeza against SS goku)

RoF 1st form freeza around 10 billion

4th form freeza is too high to be here

Golden freeza = incalculable.

I would appreciate if you guys could share your Dragon Ball (Pre Z) and Raditz Arc power levels.
Also, is it possible that Piccolo Daimao was referring to his Bakurikimaha when he said that the power he was displaying against Goku was not even half of his full power?

How about this?
Oh, and if you want to access this list anytime again, just click in my signature.

My improved power level list , in parts

Part 1 : Dragon ball

DB hunt
[spoiler]kid goku - 15
Bear bandit - 10
Oolong - 4
Yamcha - 14
Hungry goku - 13
Goku (after yamcha battle) - 16
ChiChi - 11
Gyumao - ???
Ozaru goku - 160[/spoiler]

21st TB
[spoiler]Goku - 16
Krillin - 12
Lunch (base) - 2 , SS - 10
____post training____
Krillin's bully - 22
Bacterian - 24
Yamcha - 35
Giran - 27
Nam - 44
Krillin - 44
Goku (no tail) - 48
Goku - 53, weakened - 30, ozaru - 300
Jacky chun - 54[/spoiler]

RRA encounter:
[spoiler]Goku - 56
Ninja - 30
Buyon - 50
Large Robot soldier - 53
#8 - 60
Goku (post rest) - 62
Krillin - 44
General blue - 55
Master roshi - 65 , FP 75
Tao - 75, FP 80
Bora - 58
Goku post karin - 85[/spoiler]

Fight with unknowns:
[spoiler]Krillin - 45
Yamcha - 38
Dracula - 35
Invisible man - 30
Bandage man - 50
Goku - 85
Akkuman - 66
Gohan - 75 (he was able to dominate goku because he knew him every bit, not power advantage, plus dead body advantage)[/spoiler]

22nd TB
[spoiler]Yamcha - 88
Krillin - 100
Chiatzu - 75
Jacky chun - 115 (FP)
Man wolf - 40, man - 8
King chappa - 45
Nam - 44
Goku - 115 (match power) , 120 (Full power)
Tenshinhan - 120
Crane hermit - 99[/spoiler]

King piccolo arc:
[spoiler]Goku , tired - 100, post rest - 125
Tamburine - 116
Yajirobe - 125
King piccolo (old) - 165
Tenshinhan - 120
King piccolo (young) - 190
Goku (post karin) - 198
Drum - 140
Goku (post battle, healed) - 208
Popo - 225
Kami - 270[/spoiler]

23rd TB
[spoiler]Shen (kami) - 255
Kami - 270
Cyborg tao - 148
Yamcha - 163
Krillin - 180
Tenshinhan - 225
Chiatzu - 112
Goku (weighted) - 220
Goku - 320 , Super KHH - over 700
Piccolo - 220 (suppressed) , 311 (true power) , 380 (giant)[/spoiler]

[apex_pretador]

Where would you guys place Dr Wheelo?

I know the Movie 3 pamphlet has him at 39,000 but the numbers listed on that are terrible.

Saiyan Saga Vegeta was at 18,000, somehow he was able to produce a blast equal to Goku's Kamehameha at Kaioken x3 (does that mean the Galick Gun is more powerful than the Kamehameha?).

Just assuming that Goku was as strong in Movie 2. Dr Wheelo was easily able to overpower Goku's Kamehameha at Kaioken x3 but was blown away when he used Kaioken x4. However he wasn't using his best attack there.

So would be above Goku using Kaioken x4 or below?

Contrary to popular opinion, I put dr wheelo at below nappa level power wise.