Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[apex_pretador]

He is debating whether it is possible to fit in the statements of piccolo daimao in power levels.

It's honestly extremely difficult. Tao says he became many times stronger as a Cyborg as well, though it's not all that hard to fit in since there's 3 arcs in between. Doing it with the official BPs of 10 and 416 for DB Goku and Z Goku is impossible, it's barely possible if you make his Z power level 924 if all of his other gains from training are trash, though. Interestingly, this also explains a lot of things like Piccolo saying that if everyone at the Budokai ganged up on him, they still wouldn't be able to do anything even though he was exhausted. Tenshinhan was slightly above Divine Water Goku and Kami was far above Post-Zenkai Divine Water Goku, so if the gap was small this statement wouldn't make sense, but with Piccolo being so much stronger it actually fits.

DB Goku: 10
21st Budokai Goku: 20
RRA Goku: 25 (Kuririn says he's even stronger than he was at the Budokai)
Tao: 45
Goku (Post Karin): 80 (Karin says his power became many times greater)
22nd Budokai Goku: 100
Old Piccolo: 250 (Destroyed Goku at less than half power, let's say he was at 120)
Young Piccolo: 300
Goku (Divine Water): 300
Piccolo Jr: 900 (Says he's many times more powerful)
Goku: 910 (Says he's a bit stronger than Piccolo)
Z Goku: 924

I think putting BoZ Goku and Piccolo at 900+ is too much. Raditz was effortlessy blocking all their attacks and stomping them. I would go by Daimao's Bakurikimaha being 2x+.

Well the "attack multiplier" is a nonsense concept IMO. See, for example, Vegeta survived KK x4 Kamehameha, which would be at a bare minimum 80,000 power level by that logic, and matched KK x3 Kamehameha, which would be 60,000 by that logic.
From the very beginning of dragon ball, we are told that kamehameha releases all your power in one burst. In preparation of 23rd TB, Kami told goku how to use his full power in short bursts, and remain suppressed otherwise, to conserve energy. So, Goku had 2 levels of power:
1. Relaxed battle power (416)
2. Actual full power (924)

If his full power was 416, then where do the remaining 508 power level points come from? In case of makankosappo, it was a charged attack which drew ki from everywhere around him and concentrated on Piccolo's fingertips. However, it is not the case in kamehameha.

This also explains many things:

Goku = Piccolo (BoZ) >>> 23rd TB Goku >= 23rd TB Piccolo >> Injured Piccolo >> Kami and all others >> Kami >>>> BoZ Tenshinhan = 250

Title says it all where do you place this version of buu? High tier ssj2 or low ssj3 tier?

By BoZ, Vegeta's SS2 is almost equal to mr buu, but in buu arc, he is right in between SS2 and SS3

[apex_pretador]

Goku also mentions something similar back in the 22nd Budokai, that he has a "battle use" power that's far above the power he normally uses and is reserved only for battles to the death. Kami most likely helped him refine this concept and only tap into it when he really needs it.

Also, that gap between Z Goku and 23rd TB Goku is too large. Raditz said Goku's power level was still rising when he hit 924, so he could very well be as high as 980 or so, so perhaps they could be a single > gap between his Z and 23rd TB self, but beyond that it's really hard to fit him well below Raditz.

I personally put 23rd TB Goku/Piccolo at around 750 or so. We do know that they both trained like hell for 5 years so they must be significantly improved.

Tenshinhan (and the others humans) are stronger than the numbers showed on the begining. Tien > Young Daimao >= Krillin > Yamcha > Old Daimao. They were probably using that "Match level".

The humans don't know how to suppress powers.

[apex_pretador]

Tenshinhan (and the others humans) are stronger than the numbers showed on the begining. Tien > Young Daimao >= Krillin > Yamcha > Old Daimao. They were probably using that "Match level".


The humans don't know how to suppress powers.

They don't?!

Not by BoZ.

The humans don't know how to suppress powers.

Goku showed the hability to supress his power even before training with Kami. Also, all the numbers showed on BoZ conflict with the Piccolo Saga levels.

No he didn't (don't bring out that "match level" thing because we dont know if it was him able to fight without going all out by practicing to hold back rather than suppressing his power and the dialogue between krillin, bulma completely throws away any possibility of them being "suppressed"

Would a potara fusion between Tien and Goku have been able to take down Boohan? Assuming he had full access to all of Goku's unlocked SS forms at his disposal?

He somehow turns out to be weaker than buutenks even as SS3, and even with a kikoho, he can[t finish buutenks or buuhan.
Goku SS3 - 10
Gotien SS3 - 30
Super Buu - 16
Buutenks - 37
Buuhan - 40

[apex_pretador]

Can anyone make a list for DB accounting for all of the following power gaps?
Goku
BoDB > 21st Budokai: Shown, implied and stated to have improved tremendously, likely ~2x boost

21st Budokai > Red Ribbon Army/Uranai Baba: Goes from getting almost oneshotted by Tao to stomping him, stated to have become many times stronger by Karin. Also effortlessly beats opponents who Roshi says could have beaten his Budokai self. ~3x at least.

Uranai Baba > 22nd Budokai: Improves enough to surprise everyone, but this doesn't imply huge improvement. Also beats Kuririn who rivals Post-Karin Goku fairly easily using only match level power and is slightly stronger than Tenshinhan who wrecked Yamcha. Maybe ~30-40%.improvement.

22nd Budokai > Piccolo Daimao: Goes from getting stomped by Old Piccolo who was at less than half power to slightly stronger than Young Piccolo who is stated to be considerably more powerful than old Piccolo. Easily 3x+ boost.

Piccolo Daimao > 23rd Budokai: Becomes far stronger than Kami who effortlessly finger flicked his Post-God Water self. Is also slightly stronger than Piccolo who says he's many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao, he wasn't bluffing since it's that stated that everyone working together wouldn't stand a chance against exhausted Piccolo. This means that even while exhausted Piccolo is much stronger than Kami who is so far above Post-God Water Goku he can finger flick him, so his claim of being many times stronger than Piccolo Daimao is true. Again another ~3x boost.

Yep.

Goku (BoDB) - 15
Goku (21st TB) - 45, vs Tao - 50, post Tao - 88
(I don't remember Karin saying he got several times stronger.
22nd TB - 115
Piccolo daimao (old) - 235 (Incapable of using his full power) , Young - 235 (Capable of using his full power)
Goku - 240
23rd TB Goku - 750
BoZ - 935

However, it is worth noting that I dismiss his "less than half power" claim to use literally in my standard power level list. In my own power level list, it goes more like this:

23rd TB GOku = 750, Piccolo = 740, Kami = 550 (full power), 320 (resting) , 320 (shen, peak) , Tien = 230, Krillin = 197, Yamcha = 189

Daimao arc: God = over 320, Popo = 232, Goku = 200, Piccolo = 195, Old piccolo = 165, suppressed = 140
Goku = 125 = Yajirobe, Tien = 128 (post mafuba training) Roshi = 108, Tambourine = 105

Tao arc: Goku = 90, Tao = 78, Gohan = 75, Goku (pre Karin) = 52

21st TB: Goku = 44, Nam = 36, Krillin = 38, Yamcha = 28, Gilan = 27

BoDB: Goku = 15, Yamcha = 13, Krillin = 12, Bear thief = 8, Strong human = 5, avg human = 4

[apex_pretador]

How strong is Mecha Freeza? Various bits of dialogue suggest he's stronger overall than before but that he's not putting up all his power if Gohan's statement is any indication.

Is he merely at half or 70% power? Or is his sensable strenght giving off the impression he's weaker and his robot parts are what put him above Namek Goku?

Far weaker than his Namek self (seen on panel)
Decently below Yadrat goku (Max)

[apex_pretador]

How does everyone fall on the SSJ Fusion and Super Boo's power question?

Elaborating, do you guys go the route of reducing the normal SSJ multiplier for the fusions or do you boost Super Boo's power?
The problem with boosting Super Boo's power is that it has no explanation and it's contradicts his apparent absorption technique. Which is pure addition with the exception of the Grand Supreme Kai. Therefore how in the hell did Super Boo got so stupidly strong just by absorbing Mr.Boo, who's a SSJ2 tier fighter.

I usually reduce the fusions SSJ multipliers a great deal. It's not necessary contradicted and I can speculate that the Base got a good deal of the power unlocked by SSJ.

I'm interested in everyone's thoughts.

I believe "fusion SSJs" here refers to gotenks.
I use a 3x boost for gotenks from base to Super Saiyan, and another 3x boost from super saiyan to super saiyan 3. Overall, it makes him about 2.2x of SS3 goku.

As for super buu, it goes like this:

Fat buu / mr buu = 5 billion
South Kaioshin = 7 billion
Fat / mr buu with steams coming out of his head = 6 billion or higher
Kid buu = 12 billion (peak power)
Super buu = kid buu + fat buu = 17 billion
Buff boo = 12 + 7 = 19 billion
SS3 gotenks = 21 billion.

So the Boo system would work like this?

Pure + South Kaioshin = Buff Boo

Yes

Pure + South + Dai Kaioshin = Fat Boo

Not really
Fat buu is weaker

Grey + Fat = Super Boo

Not this either. However, it works as kid buu + fat buu.

[apex_pretador]

Not really
Fat buu is weaker

That is how Fat Boo comes into being, though. The reason he becomes a lot weaker is from South Kaioshin's very gentle nature considerably lessening the evil within him.

That's true

Not this either. However, it works as kid buu + fat buu.

Huh? Grey ate Fat and became Super, how does it not work like that?

Somehow, you can't add it all up as grey buu is well below SS3 goku and super buu decently above SS3 goku.

[apex_pretador]

Assuming Gohan spent the seven years after Cell training like a Vegeta style madman, how strong would he end up? Could he get SS3 or would he simply be a really powerful SS2? Who's the highest he could realistically beat from the Boo arc?

In my opinion, he might have reached around BoG SS2 goku level, which is massive, above resting fat buu and on the same level as enraged fat buu
Kid buu, SS3 goku, Super buu etc all would slaughter him.

Not basing on numbers, how much strong you guys have Pre and Post-RoSaT SSJ Gotenks?

Something like:

Pre RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = Majin Vegeta?

Post RoSaT SSJ Gotenks = SSJ3 Goku?

Both of the times, he is stronger than Fat buu but weaker than Super Saiyan 3 goku.
Pre ROSAT, he is not going to beat buu if he gets enraged, and steams come out of his head. In the second case, he would stomp fat buu.

What kind of gap do you guys have between Weighted Piccolo and Vegeta?

Versions? Oh post kami fusion?

Weighted piccolo easily handled cell, who was implied to be abit above vegeta. IMO their gap would be similar to Zarbon vs Vegeta (fight 1) gap.
By my numbers, it goes like:
150 = vegeta
180 = Piccolo

[apex_pretador]

Versions? Oh post kami fusion?

Weighted piccolo easily handled cell, who was implied to be abit above vegeta. IMO their gap would be similar to Zarbon vs Vegeta (fight 1) gap.
By my numbers, it goes like:
150 = vegeta
180 = Piccolo

These gaps seem way too small to me, Piccolo was much stronger than Cell who was already stronger than Vegeta, he said he could probably take his Kamehameha. And even after Cell absorbed Piccolo's arm Piccolo could easily beat him without even removing his weights.

Why do these gaps seem small to you? If you mean Zarbon comparison, then it fits better for cell vs weighted piccolo probably. The numbers are good enough.

[apex_pretador]

Does anyone want to see my power levels for Future trunks / goku black arc?

[apex_pretador]

Does anyone want to see my power levels for Future trunks / goku black arc?

I'm interested

Oh cool

M = million = 1,000,000
B = billion = 1,000,000,000
T = Trillion = 1,000,000,000,000
Q = Quadrillion = 1,000,000,000,000,000


Dragon ball super: Future trunks arc:


Part 1: Copy-vegeta arc
[spoiler]

• SS3 Gotenks = 19 B (slightly weaker from BoG)
  Base goku/vegeta = 37 B (full power)
  Suppressed beerus = 42 B (movements restrained)

[/spoiler]

Part 2: The trip to past
[spoiler]

• Future trunks = 320 M, SS2 = 32 B
  SS2 Goku = 3.7 T , SS3 = 14.8 T (not showing full power against trunks in either form)
  Zamasu = 2 T (more powerful than all kaioshins combined)
  Black (in the past) = 3.8 T , in future = 4.5 T (suppressed both times)
  Black (full power, base, post all zenkais) = 20 T

[/spoiler]

Part 3: The fight in future
[spoiler]

• Mai = 7
  Future trunks (post training with vegeta) = 37 B, SS2 = 3.7 T, enraged = 37 T
  Future Zamasu = 35 T
  SSR Black = 1 Q
  SSB Goku / vegeta = 0.8 Q
  Future trunks (transformed) = 0.8 Q
  Merged Zamasu = 2 Q (initial) , 5 Q (powered up) , 1.3 Q (post beatdown from vegetto)
  Super vegetto blue = 16 Q
  Beerus = Over 20 Q

[/spoiler]


The universal survival arc: (so far)



[spoiler]

• Goku (highly suppressed)
  Base = 5 B , SS = 250 B
  Gohan (base) = 4.8 B , SS = 240 B
  Under poison = Rapidly decreasing
  Fat buu = 4 B, enraged = 6 B
  Basil = 1.6 B, full power = 2.6 B, drugged = 3 B
  Lavender = 3.4 B

[/spoiler]

[apex_pretador]

These power levels are fuckIng nuts, quadrillions?

What's the problem? Beerus and fusions are the only ones who reach in quadrillions. SSB's are less than 1 quadrillion.
Remember we had 35-40 billion in buuhan already.

[apex_pretador]

In a "What-If" scenario that Super Boo manages to absorb both SSJ3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan, would he be way stronger than Boo-han?

Why is this a question?

So how does Piccolo being stronger than Super Saiyan Goten and Kid Trunks work out? The Universe 6 saga heavily implied it.

Forget that "Piccolo trained with Gohan to get stronger" because he was still implied to be stronger in the manga as well where that training never happened.

If he's stronger than Super Saiyan Goten and the Daizenshuu said Goten has strength not the least bit inferior to Gohan then that would make Piccolo stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan which would be contradictory because he was much weaker than the Supreme Kai who was weaker than the Super Saiyans.

The only way it'd work is if Piccolo got a significantly stronger from the Buu saga to the Universe 6 saga and the kids (and most others) just stayed the same.

For me, he was always stronger than the kids.

[apex_pretador]

Do you guys agree with this line?

SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gogeta > Super Boo > Super Gogeta > Super Janemba > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

No, for me it is

Gogeta
Buuhan
SS3 gotenks
Super buu
SS3 goku
SS Gotenks

[apex_pretador]

Do you guys agree with this line?

SSJ3 Gogeta > SSJ3 Gotenks > SSJ2 Gogeta > Super Boo > Super Gogeta > Super Janemba > SSJ Gotenks > SSJ3 Goku

No, for me it is

Gogeta
Buuhan
SS3 gotenks
Super buu
SS3 goku
SS Gotenks

The manga supports the idea that Super Boo (Gohan)>Gogeta to some extent.

Not really. A half-assed claim from a cocky villain doesn't matter. He still was claiming he will win when vegetto humiliated him.

[apex_pretador]

The manga supports the idea that Super Boo (Gohan)>Gogeta to some extent.

Not really. A half-assed claim from a cocky villain doesn't matter. He still was claiming he will win when vegetto humiliated him.

That's true, however Boo saw the boys fusing and could sense Ki so it's not too farfetched(it is though) to say that he could estimate a hypothetical Gogeta's power.

It is actually far-fetched to suggest that he sensed the kids's power (who were more than likely, suppressed before fusion) since he was too bored to even notice them seriously, and almost all of it was a gag before gotenks turned SS.

[apex_pretador]

Speaking of the kids, what do you make of the Daizenshuu 2 entry comparing Gohan and Goten?

By virtue of being Goku's son, Goten posses battle power not the least bit inferior to even Gohan. On top of being able to unleash a startling amount of power in even his normal state, he can easily transform into a Super Saiyan. Furthermore, he merges with Trunks through a technique known as Fusion.

I have no problem with Post RoSaT kids being stronger than Cell Games Gohan, but that'd have to mean that they're stronger than Piccolo.
With recent material, i.e. Super, it seems that Piccolo is stronger than the kids. So, what do you make of this?

It says about base. In super saiyan, even though gohan was totally rusty compared to goten , was trying to not hurt his little brother, still significantly outperformed Goten.

[apex_pretador]

Where would you guys place:
Cooler (Final form)
King Cold
FP Mecha Freeza
Android Arc Piccolo
SSJ Future Gohan (Two arms)
SSJ Future Gohan (One arm)
SSJ Namek Goku
Cooler (Ascended form)
Yadrat goku
FP Organic Freeza (Not weakened)
SSJ Goku (Movie 5)
Android Arc SSJs
Future Androids
Present Androids

And why? Gohan is from the special, btw

What is trunks saga?

Starts from the weakest and goes down to stronger ones. I know many would disagree with my placement of freeza and mecha freeza, but it is my headcanon.

As for numbers, full power organic freeza is 120 million, and present androids are around 200 million.
Others I would need to work

[apex_pretador]

Where would you guys place:
Cooler (Final form)
King Cold
FP Mecha Freeza
Android Arc Piccolo
SSJ Future Gohan (Two arms)
SSJ Future Gohan (One arm)
SSJ Namek Goku
Cooler (Ascended form)
Yadrat goku
FP Organic Freeza (Not weakened)
SSJ Goku (Movie 5)
Android Arc SSJs
Future Androids
Present Androids

And why? Gohan is from the special, btw

What is trunks saga?

Starts from the weakest and goes down to stronger ones. I know many would disagree with my placement of freeza and mecha freeza, but it is my headcanon.

As for numbers, full power organic freeza is 120 million, and present androids are around 200 million.
Others I would need to work

It refers to when Mecha Freeza showed up.

In that case, I've already placed yadrat goku, and mecha arc trunks will be dead even with Namek goku.

[apex_pretador]

Vegeta thinks they have no chance against Beerus when he hears that Goku was defeated by him in 2 blows. So it seems even Gotenks and Gohan would be no match for him.

Wouldn't that imply that Gohan and Gotenks have less than a 2x gap over Goku, considering that Vegeta was able to blow up Cui by just pointing his fingers at his general direction with a ~1.5x.

Also, how strong do you have Base Vegetto?
I personally put him at 60x Base Goku. Does it seem too low? It reconciles with the "Vegetto = Vegeta × Kakarotto" statement, since Goku and Vegeta would be measured at 60s on the Kiri scale (because SS Goku was measured at 3,000.)

I personally put SS3 goku (BoG) over Gotenks and Gohan

So, basically:

BoG Goku > Gohan > GOtenks > Super buu > Kid buu > Buu arc goku
Goku said by the end of buu arc that he will train to be stronger than buu, and he ended up being stronger than super buu.