Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

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So then where do people place the kids if they're below Piccolo? Cell Games Vegeta and Trunks level? Lower?

Could they just be about as strong as Piccolo in the Buu saga and Piccolo surpassed them by the Resurrection F saga?

Around cell games vegeta level, while piccolo IMO is pushing CG Goku level.

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So then where do people place the kids if they're below Piccolo? Cell Games Vegeta and Trunks level? Lower?

Could they just be about as strong as Piccolo in the Buu saga and Piccolo surpassed them by the Resurrection F saga?

Around cell games vegeta level, while piccolo IMO is pushing CG Goku level.

Piccolo should be nowhere close to Goku since he is far weaker than Kaioshin who himself is weaker than Gohan who's probably in the same league as Cell Arc Goku.

I believe we already have debated this in detail before, but still:

1. Piccolo is not necessarily weaker than kaioshin. He can't even sense kaioshin, and they are, quite literally from different dimensions (earth and kaioshin dimension) so "dimensions apart" doesn't matter at all. And I do not consider guidebooks canon or worth anything in the discussion.

2. Kaioshin is not necessarily weaker than SS Gohan. We have already discussed it too. Z sword pulling does not depict as Gohan < Shin when almost every kaioshin failed to do it, and BASE goku was swinging it around.

3. If you really want me to buy this thing, then it means piccolo significantly weakened in the time skip of 7 years, since cell juniors (who piccolo was close to) and cell games goku were NOT dimensions apart, not even close to dimensions apart. They were in different tiers, but no more than one tier apart. Since Akira toriyama himself has confirmed that Piccolo almost always trains in free time (unlike Tien who wasnt mentioned), this is not possible. So the "dimensions are too different" statement can't refer to power, especially considering that not only Piccolo had no idea who shin was, but also he couldn't sense his god ki.

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What Piccolo says about "different dimensions" is just like what happened before in the series (such as Tien to SSJ Goku), more like referring to their powers. I'd say a 1.5 of difference is enough for their powers to be on different dimensions. Also, even though you don't consider the guidebooks, it's still valuable for discussions like this. The Daizenshuu states that Piccolo was weaker than Kaioshin.

Are you telling me tien vs SS goku is 1.5x power gap?
And Daizenshuu states piccolo is "far, far weaker" than kaioshin.

Taking out the Z sword from the rock is different to lifting it after it was taken out. If Goku or Gohan would have given the sword to Supreme Kai, he would have lifting it easily. Supreme Kai was also relying on strenght to take the sword out of the rock. He was clearly referring to Gohan's strenght, and considering Gohan transforms into SSJ in the manga (no guidebook states he was SSJ2), then Supreme Kai has to be weaker than SSJ Gohan.

Can you prove that Kaioshin could've lifted the Z sword easily? For all we know, beerus could have simply put an additional spell on the Z sword to make sure that no kaioshin pulls it out.

You are wrong about Cell jrs not being far away from Goku. The Cell Jrs are a bit equal to Vegeta, and he was way below Goku. That's stated clearly in the manga. Even a tired Cell, who was stated to be weaker than 100% Goku, was stated to be still above Vegeta and the others. Vegeta was also shocked by Goku's power. There was a big difference between them

Vegeta was already well above "around half" power goku, as he was confident in beating someone who was too much for 50% CG Goku. It is far less than 2x gap. And tired cell was never stated to be below 100% Goku.

Would the gap between Kaioshin and Piccolo really be that big. I think Piccolo would be able to surpass him by Battle of Gods, though that isn't really implied anywhere. Kaioshin might be "dimensions above" a weighted Piccolo from the Buu Saga, but a full powered Piccolo from the BoG or RoF Saga should be able to outclass him in strength IMO.

Exactly, this renders the "dimensions are too different" statement useless about power level debates, because if Kaioshin is really below Super Saiyan Gohan, he can't have "too different" dimensions from piccolo. And then the problem is, Piccolo can't sense god ki. He doesn't even know who shin is.

Kaioshin called Gohan's power unbelievably tremendous, he's clearly far weaker than him.

Kaioshin said the same thing about BASE vegeta. So he is clearly far weaker than base vegeta too and this means he is far weaker than freeza too.

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Kaioshin called Gohan's power unbelievably tremendous, he's clearly far weaker than him.

Kaioshin said the same thing about BASE vegeta. So he is clearly far weaker than base vegeta too and this means he is far weaker than freeza too.

Kaioshin didn't say that about Base Vegeta at all, he was just surprised that they were so strong. Also, when Goku later goes SSJ2 he thinks to himself that the reason they have such composure is because they can bring out that tremendous power in a pinch, and this is the first instance of him acknowledging a power as truly tremendous.

He says it about Gohan when Kibito asks if a mere human could pull out the Z sword when even the Gods were unable to, and Kaioshin says Kibito was dead so he didn't see Gohan's unbelievably tremendous power. The context here clearly shows that Kaioshin believes Gohan is stronger than him.

And I don't know why you keep bringing up Beerus supposedly adding a spell to prevent Gods from pulling the sword out, not only is there no evidence of such a thing, Kaioshin doesn't even know about it so it doesn't matter, for him to make Gohan attempt to pull the sword out when he himself couldn't, he must believe that Gohan is stronger than him.

Furthermore, if we're using fanfic theories, why not say that Kaioshin is actually stronger than SSJ3 Goku and Beerus put a spell on Buu to prevent Gods from beating him?

Oh well

Chapter: 449 (DBZ 255), P13.3
Context: after Vegeta kills Pui-Pui
Kaioshin: “Th-that can’t be…Th-they’re this [strong]…”

Outright disbelief shown. And Kaioshin says "the three sayians" when he never sees SS or SS2 vegeta in action, only base vegeta.

I could care less about Kaioshin, but Piccolo is not "dimensions apart" from someone weaker than cell games goku. He wasn't dimensions apart from goku in cell games either.

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I have an idea, what is the highest power level you could put kid buu on, with using "official" material only (but no filler) but with logic and proper reasoning?

Say, for example, taking vegeta's statement about beating "everyone" in base literally, and making his base equal to piccolo.

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I have an idea, what is the highest power level you could put kid buu on, with using "official" material only (but no filler) but with logic and proper reasoning?

Say, for example, taking vegeta's statement about beating "everyone" in base literally, and making his base equal to piccolo.

If we use the same x50 multipliers, and I have Piccolo at 1,800,000,000, then Vegeta as a SSJ2 would be a 180,000,000,000. With Goku, he would be a 225,000,000,000. With SSJ3, he's a 900,000,000,000. Kid Buu could be on par with him, or slightly weaker, considering that Goku didn't use all of his power against Kid Buu, since had to reunite all of his energy. Kid Buu would be around 850,000,000,000.

And what about the lowest?

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I have an idea, what is the highest power level you could put kid buu on, with using "official" material only (but no filler) but with logic and proper reasoning?

Say, for example, taking vegeta's statement about beating "everyone" in base literally, and making his base equal to piccolo.

If we use the same x50 multipliers, and I have Piccolo at 1,800,000,000, then Vegeta as a SSJ2 would be a 180,000,000,000. With Goku, he would be a 225,000,000,000. With SSJ3, he's a 900,000,000,000. Kid Buu could be on par with him, or slightly weaker, considering that Goku didn't use all of his power against Kid Buu, since had to reunite all of his energy. Kid Buu would be around 850,000,000,000.

Here's my take on highest possible number for buu (I do not agree with them all, but they are logical reasoning):
[spoiler]1. Freeza is 120 million, Goku is 150 million.
2. Mecha freeza is atleast 160 M, so Yadrat goku is 200 million to beat him and king cold at once.
3. Android arc sick goku was barely equal to #19, and far beyond 200 million, atleast 250 million (Tien's reaction)
4. #19 even after absorbing so much power, and then absorbing much more power with Vegeta, was weaker than weakened vegeta.
#19 = 400million, weakened vegeta = 500 million (one shotted 19)
5. Dr Gero was stronger than vegeta, absorbed some power from him, and piccolo. Piccolo still stomped him.
Dr gero = 550 million, after absorption = 660 million , piccolo = 800 million.
6. Kami doubled piccolo's power = 1.6 bil
7. Imperfect cell utterly stomped piccolo = 2.2 bil
8. Semiperfect cell is much more powerful than just the sum of imp cell & 17, since it is important in his evolution. 4.5 bil. He powered up signigicantly against vegeta = 5 bil
9. Vegeta stomped him = 6.6 bil
10. Perfect cell no-sold him like semi-cell vs #16 = 12 bil, bulk trunks was stronger = 13.2 bil. Bulk cell was even stronger, using same multipliers = 24 bil
11. 50% goku was strongest thing ever seen = 25 bil called cell too strong = 30 bil (expected)
12. Vegeta was stronger than expected cell = 35 bil, cell jr was stronger = 37 bil. Piccolo fought well against cell jrs = 32 bil.
13. In buu arc, Piccolo is atleast as strong as CG Goku since he is excited to fight goku, vegeta and gohan = 50 bil (not unreasonable)
14. Kaioshin was dimensions too different in power = same multiplier as SS weakened goku vs tien (Tien can't be more than 1 million for obvious reasons)
Kaioshin = 12500 billion = 12.5 tril
15. Kaioshin is scared of pui pui = 15 tril, who got wtfstomped by vegeta in base = 30 tril
16. Vegeta powers up by almost 2x using babidi = 50 tril
17. SS3 Goku = 20000 tril = 20 quadril[/spoiler]
Kid buu was equal to SS3 goku, but he was toying = 20 quad, full power = 25 quadrillion.

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If we use the same x50 multipliers, and I have Piccolo at 1,800,000,000, then Vegeta as a SSJ2 would be a 180,000,000,000. With Goku, he would be a 225,000,000,000. With SSJ3, he's a 900,000,000,000. Kid Buu could be on par with him, or slightly weaker, considering that Goku didn't use all of his power against Kid Buu, since had to reunite all of his energy. Kid Buu would be around 850,000,000,000.

Here's my take on highest possible number for buu (I do not agree with them all, but they are logical reasoning):
[spoiler]1. Freeza is 120 million, Goku is 150 million.
2. Mecha freeza is atleast 160 M, so Yadrat goku is 200 million to beat him and king cold at once.
3. Android arc sick goku was barely equal to #19, and far beyond 200 million, atleast 250 million (Tien's reaction)
4. #19 even after absorbing so much power, and then absorbing much more power with Vegeta, was weaker than weakened vegeta.
#19 = 400million, weakened vegeta = 500 million (one shotted 19)
5. Dr Gero was stronger than vegeta, absorbed some power from him, and piccolo. Piccolo still stomped him.
Dr gero = 550 million, after absorption = 660 million , piccolo = 800 million.
6. Kami doubled piccolo's power = 1.6 bil
7. Imperfect cell utterly stomped piccolo = 2.2 bil
8. Semiperfect cell is much more powerful than just the sum of imp cell & 17, since it is important in his evolution. 4.5 bil. He powered up signigicantly against vegeta = 5 bil
9. Vegeta stomped him = 6.6 bil
10. Perfect cell no-sold him like semi-cell vs #16 = 12 bil, bulk trunks was stronger = 13.2 bil. Bulk cell was even stronger, using same multipliers = 24 bil
11. 50% goku was strongest thing ever seen = 25 bil called cell too strong = 30 bil (expected)
12. Vegeta was stronger than expected cell = 35 bil, cell jr was stronger = 37 bil. Piccolo fought well against cell jrs = 32 bil.
13. In buu arc, Piccolo is atleast as strong as CG Goku since he is excited to fight goku, vegeta and gohan = 50 bil (not unreasonable)
14. Kaioshin was dimensions too different in power = same multiplier as SS weakened goku vs tien (Tien can't be more than 1 million for obvious reasons)
Kaioshin = 12500 billion = 12.5 tril
15. Kaioshin is scared of pui pui = 15 tril, who got wtfstomped by vegeta in base = 30 tril
16. Vegeta powers up by almost 2x using babidi = 50 tril
17. SS3 Goku = 20000 tril = 20 quadril[/spoiler]
Kid buu was equal to SS3 goku, but he was toying = 20 quad, full power = 25 quadrillion.

Yeah, well, I don't agree with Buu arc Piccolo being equal to Cell Games Goku, and I would put his Cell Games version at 25 or somewhere else, with Buu arc version at 35. But the whole rest is perfect in your resolution.

I see.
What about lowest possible number for kid buu? (Using freeza's 120 million ofcourse)

My standard power level list puts him at 12 billion, but IMO, careful precision and attempt to control inflation can bring it down to 3-4 billion. I don't think any lower is possible.

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power levels.

If my suggestions are welcome:

Why do you have Krillin so far beyond an average human? He was called worthless by his bullies and he could not run 100m in less than 10 seconds.

Also, it seems Yamcha improved a bit too much to believe, while training on his own. He was defeated by Jackie Chun waving his hand. He should be lower.

Not a fan of seeing king Chappa so high, when Goku while using far less power than he used against Krillin easily defeatedhim while barely trying, and Tao was still hyped more than Chappa ever was.

Yajirobe and Tien seem to look a bit too weak for matching Goku at his best.

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Was it said that Goku used less power against King Chappa than Krillin? Are you referring to Goku saying he held back against Chappa so he didn't kill him but said he wouldn't hold back against Krillin?

Krillin thought Goku was going all out, and that was AFTER he had seen Goku's performance against Chappa, AND goku stating he wasn't going anywhere near all out otherwise he would have killed Chappa accidentally. Goku then powered up twice.
That proves he was using far more power than against Chappa.

Tao was still hyped but as it was mentioned a few posts up. Goku beat Tao without too much effort. Roshi saw how strong he he'd become. He then went and trained for 3 years so Roshi would have expected him to get a lot stronger but still was unsure if he'd beat King Chappa so he should be stronger than Tao.

Tao was hyped AFTER everyone saw Goku stomping Chappa, while explicitly stated to be massively holding back.
Roshi was never unsure if he can beat Chappa. He just said Goku got a tricky opponent for himself, and remember that Roshi did not know how to sense ki at that moment. He was just going off by reputation of king Chappa. "This guy won 2 tournaments without even being touched, he will probably be a tricky opponent for Goku". And when we consider the average level of a tournament (21st, 22nd, 23rd, 25th combined), characters like Nam and Pamput are the strongest entrants. They were probably the best opponents that were defeated by king chappa.

Edit: Oh I think I also had him high because Yamcha said he didn't think anyone could beat Chappa so easily which should include himself so shouldn't that mean that Goku in the preliminary was stronger than Yamcha and also Krillin who was said to be of a similar level?

Obviously Yamcha's words can't be taken as such because he did not know how powerful Chappa is. He couldn't sense ki, he was going off by reputation.

Yajirobe might be a bit too low I put him closer to Goku's match power because he didn't seem serious like when he fought Tambourine and when Yajirobe wanted no part of him if he was like that.

Goku thought Yajirobe was involved in Krillin's death when he fought him.
[/quote]

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Wouldn't Roshi be going off of reputation when it came to Tao then? He never met him after all.

I've seen on other forums that this has sorta divided people, some think Tao would beat Chappa and some think the opposite is true.

Well,

By reputation, Tao >> Chappa
By hype Tao >> Chappa
By feats, Tao >> Chappa

When they both power up once, for 23rd TB, Tao >> Chappa still holds.

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SSJ Kids > Piccolo confirmated

Spoiler:

This was asked about recently in the Translation Request thread, and it was "confirmated" that the bit about Goten and Trunks' power was a complete Viz fabrication. The original Japanese version of that summary page was almost completely different.

This scan can't be legit because it also says goku watched helplessly from afterlife while buu killed vegeta and defeated gohan, even though he was on earth, knocked out.

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How accurate do people think this is? All 22nd Budokai characters.

Goku (Battle Power) >= Tien > Goku (Match power: Serious) >= Jackie Chun > Goku (Match power: Not Serious) = Krillin >= Yamcha > Chiaotzu > Goku (Holding back during Preliminaries) > King Chappa

In other words do people think that Krillin, Yamcha and Chiaotzu would be superior to the level Goku used against King Chappa?

Goku (battle power) and Tien should be almost equals. No one had the advantage in their fight, goku was slightly quicker due to his smaller size.

Goku (match power) should be significantly above Roshi, since he was unable to even see him when he did that running in circles thing against Krillin, and Roshi admitted inferiority.

"Not serious" Goku as in your list was still manhandling Krillin, who barely got any good hits in. He should be significantly superior.

I do not know how do we quantify holding back goku "in preliminaries".

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Goku always appeared to be one step ahead throughout that fight. From when Goku got serious and used his Battle power then from what happened afterwards

1. They had that afterimage exchange which Goku got the upper hand in.

2. Tiens Solar Flare technique backfired.

3. Then Chiaotzu started paralyzing Goku which was why Tien was able to get some hits in.

4. Tien did the four arm technique and got a few hits in before Goku started waving his arms and got more hits in causing Tien to say he was losing and had a disadvantage up close.

5. So Tien resorted to the Tri Beam which Goku dodged and then used the Kamehameha to hit him but then ended up losing by bad luck.

1. Both of them countered each other repeatedly before goku finally won the exchange.

2. Because Goku knew about it and already decided how to counter it.

3. It might be argued that Tien would still get meaningful hits in if not for chiaotzu.

4. Yes, but it was also said that Goku's kamehameha is totally useless against Tien.

5. Tien warned goku to dodge it, and Goku would have won barely by a small margin.

Tien even said afterward that when it came to strength he lost. There ain't a lot in it but Goku definitely came across as superior overall.

Maybe.
But if there is any gap, it is extremely small, like daimao/goku or ma-jr/goku

Well by not serious I'm referring to from when they started fighting up until Roshi said he was beginning to show his true strength. Prior to that Krillin actually got more hits in than Goku did.

Krillin's hits barely did anything to goku. It was clear goku was playing around (probably because he wanted a good fight)
Goku even no-sold Krillin's kamehameha.

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Ranfan – 45
Bacterian – 44


Mercenary Tao – 83
King Chappa – 98

My only problems with this list.

1. Why are bacterian and Ranfan so absurdly high? Okay, they did get through the qualifying rounds, but they were nothing impressive. They should be closer to 20 or so and that probably would still be highballing.

2. Tao surpasses chappa in both feats and hype. And for the "only" argument that "Roshi saw goku in action before that fight", Roshi did not know about chappa's actual power (just going off hype), and he only briefly saw goku in action post karin and that was when goku was not trying to kill just fight (and Tao did much better than chappa against goku). It is unlikely that Roshi would remember the movements exactly from 3 years ago when he did not even pay proper attention and could not sense ki.
Not to mention that roshi never doubts goku beating chappa

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How strong would Freeza and Cell get if they had become Majin soldiers?

Cell would become as strong as M vegeta

Freeza would become atleast as strong as SS3 gotenks in his final form.

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How strong would Freeza and Cell get if they had become Majin soldiers?

Cell would become as strong as M vegeta

Freeza would become atleast as strong as SS3 gotenks in his final form.

I said that ignoring RoF existence, but since you addressed to your opinion: isn't a little bit contradictory that Cell boost is small compared to Freeza even though he has the same "prodigy" genes in his body?

I did not include RoF, otherwise I would have said finger-flick SS3 vegetto at 1%.

Because cell also has non-prodigy genes of king cold, vegeta, goku, nappa, piccolo etc.

How strong would Freeza and Cell get if they had become Majin soldiers?

Cell would become as strong as M vegeta

Freeza would become atleast as strong as SS3 gotenks in his final form.

Didn't Babidi draw out Vegeta's power beyond his limits? Wouldn't "Majin Freeza" be stronger than his Golden Form going by that?

I don't think that majin boost is that potent. Golden freeza was an entire different level of evolution.

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If during the Buu saga...

Super Saiyan Gotenks = 10

Super Saiyan 2 Gotenks = 20

Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks = 80

Then what would Super Saiyan 3 Goku be at?

I don't give Gotenks official multipliers because they contradict the story. However, going by your SS3 Gotenks numbers,

SS3 Goku (buu) = 45
SS3 Goku (BoG) = 90

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I don't give Gotenks official multipliers because they contradict the story. However, going by your SS3 Gotenks numbers,

SS3 Goku (buu) = 45
SS3 Goku (BoG) = 90

Isn't that kind of a big jump for Goku? Going by the Yo Son Goku OVA he said he'd be getting pretty rusty and he probably couldn't have increased too much.

He'd been busy with farm work and all and only got the chance to use King Kai's planet to train just a day or two before Beerus showed up. In between he probably had nobody to spar with or any magical training weights or increased gravity or the like.

Well, he supposedly mastered SS3, and improved enough so that everyone implied that Goku is the most powerful there. Gohan might've slack off a bit, but still he was ultimate.
Also, I believe gokku stated that he will be prepared for a threat like Super buu for the next time (like by BoG) so he should have trained with super buu's power in mind.

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There's something that I have the need to point out regarding the power levels before Z. It's that Goku and Piccolo can't be that far above from 416 and 408.

During the Namek arc, King Kai said that Piccolo, Tien, Yamcha and Chiaotzu all managed to run along the snake way faster than Goku. Yeah, that includes Chiaotzu, who has a power level of 610. I think that itself would indicate that Goku and Piccolo in the beggining of Z have to obligatorily be below Chiaotzu's 610. Anywhere between 408/416 up to probably the 500 range would be possible. What do you think?

Chiaotzu could easily fly over the snake way, which means he would travel in straight path, not including any twists and turns or anything. Also as others have mentioned, goku was wearing his weights, which would slow him down.