Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[.:PoetikaL:.]

How about an epic list from Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans? Good ol' Raichi and Hatchiyatatatata-HA! need some love too.

[ahill1]

I think Goku SSJ sick(power up) > Android 20(initial) > Android 19(initial) > Goku SSJ sick(initial) > Goku SSJ(yardrat saga)

[ahill1]

You could have it:

Vegeta SSJ(android arc) 100
Goku SSJ(android arc) 96
Future Trunks SSJ(android arc) 90
Piccolo(android arc) 80
Android 20(post) 66
Android 19(post) 66
Goku SSJ sick(power up) 66
Android 20(pre) 56
Android 19(pre) 50.4
Goku SSJ sick(initial) 45.7
Goku SSJ(yardrat saga) 40
Future Trunks SSJ(yardrat saga) 32
Future Gohan SSJ(1 arm) 30
Android 17(27%) 27

Seems about right.

[ahill1]

I think any Super Saiyan sick or not > Freeza >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Androids #19 and #20

I mean, really, some ugly clown and old man who weren't very relevant to the plot being stronger than the former Emperor of the Universe? Let's be rational now.

I agree, although the appearance has nothing to do with their perceived power. It's well implied in the manga. Believing Yamcha would be useful energy and mistaking him initially with Goku. Meaning they had measured the possible progress of Goku to be between 100.000 and 2.000.000 (were Yamcha may stand). With their supreme confidence they should be a good bit above that; but might not even reach 50% Freeza without absorbing energy.

You also have a later line, by Kuririn, where he asks Goku if he's scared a stronger opponent than Freeza showed up, that's after Goku wakes up from his coma (so, right after #17, #18 and Cell make their appearance). I don't know why he'd ask this if #19 and Gero were already stronger, in that case he would have asked earlier.

Krillin also said that the Androids 19 and 20 are terrible as Future Trunks had predicted.
When Piccolo wins Gero he opens the possibility of androids are indeed true and the Z warriors have been very strong for them - if 19 and 20 were weaker than Freeza there'd only be one response to Piccolo: "they cannot be the real androids".

[ahill1]

Only Trunks (Android arc) could fight against the Androids; Trunks (android arc) > > > Trunks (mecha arc)

Goku (yardrat saga) > > Future Trunks (yardrat saga). Yet the power of Goku just gave a little hope to Trunks and Trunks knew that Goku would train for 3 years, though Vegeta's son wasn't sure as to the outcome of the fight. For me the Z warriors hoped that the androids were at least 2 x stronger than Goku (yardrat saga) and 3 x stronger than Trunks.

Trunks(mecha arc) can 1-2 shot Mecha Freeza
Mecha arc Goku is stronger than Trunks
Sick Goku is much stronger than Mecha arc Goku
Sick Goku was not capable of one-shot 19(initial)
So 19>>>Freeza

[ahill1]

I'll post my list here. I'm not sure who's stronger: Goku SSJ(mecha freeza saga) or Android 19(initial).

Dragon Ball arc


Goku 10
~Oozaru 100

Yamcha 9

Kuririn 7

Gyumao 15

Roshi 20


21st Budokai

Bacterian 12

Yamcha 12

Ranfan 13.5

Giran 14

Kuririn 16

Namu 19

Goku 20
~Oozaru 200

Roshi 20


Red Ribbon part 1

Silver 10

Murasaki 16

Metallic 18

Goku 20

A-8 24


Red Ribbon part 2

Kuririn 16

Pirate Robot 17

Blue 18

Goku 22


Red Ribbon part 3

Blue 18

Bora 18.5

Goku 22

Tao Pai Pai 30

Goku(post karin) 36

Karin 67


Uranai Baba arc

Draculaman 10.6

Invisible man 11

Yamcha 12

Kuririn 16

Mummy 22

Akkuman 26

Son Gohan 34.2

Goku 36


22nd Budokai

Panput 22

Chapa-o 34

Chaozu 38

Yamcha 40

Kuririn 40

Tsuru 55

Roshi 60

Tenshinhan 70

Goku 70


Piccolo Daimao

flashback
Roshi(young) 63
Tsuru(young) 63
Mutaito 67

Kuririn 40

Cymbal 45

Tambourine 60

Yajirobe 66

Karin 67

Tenshinhan 70

Goku 70

Drum 90

Old Piccolo Daimao 150

Young Piccolo Daimao 200

Goku(post water) 200

Mr Popo 275

Kami 310


23rd Budokai

Chapa-o 50

Chaozu 120

Yajirobe 120

Chi Chi 130(weekly jump)

Cyborg Tao 150

Yamcha 165

Kuririn 180

Tenshinhan 220

Shen 300

Kami 310

Piccolo Jr 375

Goku(weighted) 220
~W/o weights 380


Suggestions are welcome!

[ahill1]

I understand your point of view, Hugo Boss. But it was suggested there is a big difference between Goku (yardrat arc) and Androids, even so Goku still had confidence in his power. Goku's power gave only a little hope for Trunks, then was involved a big difference between future androids and Goku / Trunks. So I ask: Goku was so confident going against androids supposedly much stronger than Trunks if he had not made a considerable power up? So he must have had substantial gains. Trunks (android arc) said he could do very well against the androids and Goku (android arc) is even stronger than Trunks, so Son Goku (android arc) have to be close or equal to the future androids, which crush yardrat Goku.

Goku SSJ namek 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza 160,000,000
Future Trunks(mecha freeza saga) 240,000,000
Goku(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000
Future Trunks(android saga) 450,000,000
Goku(android saga) 480,000,000
Future 18 480,000,000
Future 17 500,000,000

[ahill1]

Just for Goku attend the fight shows that he was confident.

Mecha Frieza is slightly stronger than Goku SSJ in namek.
Trunks suggests he can beat Mecha Frieza instantly, it implies at least a 1.5x gap.
SSJ Goku (yardrat saga) > SSJ Goku (trunks estimation) > Trunks(yardrat saga) - this implies at least a 1.25x gap.

Goku (yardrat saga) >> Trunks (yardrat saga) >>> Mecha Frieza> = SSJ Goku (namek)

Thus it is quite possible that Goku doubled his power at that time.

[ahill1]

Super Buu 10
Gotenks (SSJ3) 10
Ultimate Gohan 15

[ahill1]

We saw the facial expression of Goku that he is confident. He is not sure that will win, but is excited about fighting really strong opponents, something he would not be if it had not substantially increased his power.
The Mecha Freeza's comment suggests that he is> = SSJ Goku (namek); he has confidence in his powers, but still not so sure ... Does he hoped that Goku had increased his powers? I do not know ... If Goku is a 150 then Mecha Frieza is definitely 155-160. You are a supporter of the 120 million number for Freeza? I'm not ... Freeza was pretty damn close to Goku. I would put Freeza at least 94% of Goku SSJ based on the fight they had.

Freeza(100%) 141,000,000
Goku SSJ(namek) 150,000,000
Mecha Freeza(100% unseen) 155,000,000
Mirai Trunks SSJ 240,000,000
Goku SSJ(mecha freeza saga) 300,000,000

[ahill1]

Good points; but to me it makes little sense Goku hold back against Freeza since all he wanted was to fight to avenge Krillin. Also Goku did not know how to suppress his power since he was recently turned into SSJ. I do not think Goku could kill Freeza instantly as did Trunks. What are your numbers Hugo Boss?

[ahill1]

It is impossible to have Freeza > Goku base. Goku base fought evenly with Yakon, which is already much stronger than Freeza; Kaioshin said he could one-shot Freeza and feared Yakon. Have Furiza > base Saiyans is factually wrong.

My numbers for Freeza saga:


Kuririn 200,000

Gohan 250,000

Piccolo(Weighted) 275,000
~W/o weights 300,000

Vegeta 500,000

Freeza(1st form) 530,000




Freeza arc part 2



Gohan 250,000
~Furious 1,000,000

Freeza 2nd form(initial) 1,060,000
~Vs Gohan 1,200,000
~Full power 1,400,000

Piccolo post merge(Weighted) 1,250,000
~W/o weights 1,500,000

Gohan(zenkai) 500,000
~Furious 1,600,000
~Masenko 1,800,000

Freeza(3rd form) 1,850,000

Vegeta(zenkai) 2,400,000

Freeza final form(initial) 2,400,000
~Speedup 3,250,000
~50% 70,000,000
~70% 98,000,000
~100% 140,000,000

Goku
~base 3,000,000
~Kaioken x10 30,000,000
~Kaioken x20 60,000,000
~Super Saiyajin 150,000,000

What do you guys think? Looks good?

[ahill1]

I don't think Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo. Piccolo withdrew from the tournament because he figured out who Kaioshin is.
Then Goku SSJ (buu arc) ~ Freeza (namek)?

75,000 seems too low for Krillin, don't you think? He was considered to be useful against Freeza, whose power was 530,000.

250,000 seems too low for Vegeta-he fought evenly with Freeza (1st form). Don't you think that 500,000 would be better?

Why do you think Piccolo ~ Freeza? Gohan was sure that Piccolo would win. Is there a quote in Daizenshuu for that?

I'm undecided about the power of Frieza (100%) ... He was able to fight evenly with Goku, then how would a 20% distance between their powers?

[ahill1]

It's not stated in the manga. For me Piccolo has found out who Kaioshin was. Piccolo has not entered the tournament to give up because it was not the stronger-it is obvious that there was something else restricting him in combat.

So you think Vegeta is less than half Freeza's power?

I don't know how 75,000 can be useful against someone with 530,000.

Goku and Freeza fought evenly until Frieza began to have their power reduced.

[ahill1]

I didn't realize there was some sort of minimum power percentage required to be considered "useful" against an opponent. Is there a chart or spreadsheet of some sort in the guidebooks that I haven't seen?

It is impossible to have Freeza > Goku base. Goku base fought evenly with Yakon, which is already much stronger than Freeza; Kaioshin said he could one-shot Freeza and feared Yakon. Have Furiza > base Saiyans is factually wrong.

It's not anywhere near "impossible" or "factually wrong." Such brazen and exaggerated claims are unnecessary.

I'm curious to know why you're Freeza > base Saiyans. Just because of the movie? You will with the film even if it contradicts the manga?

[ahill1]

I'm curious to know why you're Freeza > base Saiyans. Just because of the movie?

Back when I started making up power level lists, it's just where they ended up. I went through the series up to the Boo arc, applying what I believed to be reasonable jumps in power, and that's simply where and how the numbers landed in the end. The base Saiyans in the Majin Boo arc always ended up moderately weaker than 100% Freeza.

Then I spent a few years on somewhat less welcoming forums being told "that's impossible" and "that's bullshit" and "let me condescendingly explain to you why you're wrong," and generally not being treated like a viable member of the community just because of an ultimately unimportant opinion on how two characters' strengths compared.

So I obviously ignored those people. The bit from Battle of Gods and now Super just helped cement things for me even more.

You will(?) with the film even if it contradicts the manga?

Which it does not. There's a few things in the manga that could imply something or other, but they can all be explained and hand-waved in various ways. There is no straightforward "we're stronger than Freeza even without Super Saiyan now" line or demonstration anywhere in the manga. The revelation about it in Battle of Gods contradicts nothing but some fans' overly staunch opinions about the story before it.

You can bet I'm not going to let the same kind of "your <Opinion X> is factually wrong, my <Opinion Y> is factually right, deal with it" nonsense from less respectable communities infect Kanzenshuu. Have whatever opinions you want, but don't go proudly waving the "I'm right, you're wrong" flag around. There's remarkably few things about power levels that are so concrete and and undeniable.

I understand... One more thing: why do you have Android 19/20 (pre) weaker than Frieza? SSJ Goku sick was still at a level 19 could win according to Gero and SSJ Goku sick > SSJ Goku (yardrat saga).

[ahill1]

I get sad when I see people putting Freeza in 120,000,000. Feeza fought evenly with Goku SSJ; Place him at least in 140,000,000.

[ahill1]

I get sad when I see people putting Freeza in 120,000,000. Feeza fought evenly with Goku SSJ; Place him at least in 140,000,000.

Author approved guidebooks > Fan speculation

Fan speculation > guidebooks IMO. I don't think the authors of the guides put much thought in his numbers; otherwise he would not have Piccolo Daimao > Tenshinhan. Or Goku (22nd TB) > Yamcha (23rd TB) - what is laughable. We fans sat and tried to put some meaning to the numbers, which the guides don't bother to do.

[ahill1]

Which one of these is more accurate?

a) Gohan's enraged power and full potential is his Ssj2 state.
b) Gohan's enraged power stacks on his Ssj2 state.

Examples 1 - a) -

Goku
Ssj 5,000

Kid Gohan
Ssj 7,500
Ssj2 15,000

Perfect Cell
Powered Up 5,500
Increased Speed 6,000
Real Speed 8,000
Full Power 10,000

Super Perfect Cell
Full Power 14,000

Or

Example 2 - b) -

Goku
Ssj 5,000

Gohan
Ssj 7,500
Ssj2 15,000
Enraged 30,000

Perfect Cell
Powered Up 5,500
Increased Speed 6,000
Real Speed 8,000
Full Power 10,000

Super Perfect
Full Power 20,000

I prefer the example A. I do not like giving an increase due to anger to Gohan;It is not involved any of this in the manga. Just keep a big difference between Goku and Gohan that things start to make sense. What do you think?

Goku SSJ (cell games) 45
Cell (vs Goku) 50.625
Gohan SSJ (Buu saga) 56
Dabra 56
Vegeta SSJ (buu saga) 63
Cell (vs gohan) 67.5
Gohan SSJ (cell games) 67.5

[ahill1]

DRAGON BALL POWA REVERU LISTO

Dragon Ball saga


Bear Bandit 6.4

Kuririn 7

Yamcha 9

Son Goku 10
~Oozaru 100

Gyumao 15

Roshi 20




21st Tenkaichi Budokai



Orin Temple Bullies 9

Bacterian 12

Yamcha 12

Ranfan 13.5

Giran 14

Kuririn 16

Namu 19

Son Goku 20
~Oozaru 200

Roshi 20



Red Ribbon Saga ( Muscle Tower )



Silver 10

Murasaki 16

Metallic 18

Son Goku 20

Android 8 24



Red Ribbon saga ( part 2 )


Kuririn 16

Pirate Robot 17

Blue 18

Bora 18.5

Son Goku 22

Tao Pai Pai 30

Son Goku ( Post Karin ) 36

Karin 67



Uranai Baba Saga


Dracula Man 10.6

Invisible Man 11

Yamcha 12

Kuririn 16

Mummy 22

Akkuman 26

Son Gohan 34.2

Son Goku 36



22nd Tenkaichi Budokai


Panput 22

Chapa-o 34

Chaozu 38

Yamcha 40

Kuririn 40

Tsuru 55

Roshi 60

Tenshinhan 70

Son Goku 70



Piccolo Daimao Saga


flashback
Roshi ( young ) 63
Tsuru ( young ) 67
Mutaito 67

Kuririn 40

Cymbal 45

Tambourine 60

Yajirobe 66

Karin 67

Tenshinhan 70

Son Goku 70

Drum 90

Piccolo Daimao ( old ) 150

Piccolo Daimao ( Young ) 200

Son Goku ( Post Sacred Water ) 200

Mr Popo 275

Kami 310



23rd Tenkaichi Budokai


Chapa-o 50

Chaozu 120

Yajirobe 120

Chi Chi 130

Cyborg Tao Pai Pai 150

Yamcha 165

Kuririn 180

Tenshinhan 220

Shen 300

Kami 310

Piccolo 375

Son Goku ( Weighted ) 220
~W/o Weights 380


I really want the opinion of you! The list is good? Should I change anything? Comment.