Timeline Discussion

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:29 pm

And at least we now know that the "remote control" idea is completely made up by the Daizenshuu, and so should be treated on the same level as "there was a Cell Games in Timeline 4 with a perfect Cell".

(As a side note, had we agreed that Timeline 1 was Future Trunks' timeline? I thought we were still arguing over whether it should be the main anime timeline instead.)

Anyway, our new, show only information for timeline 3 is:

"Seems to be similar to timeline 1 (Future Trunks') timeline, but that is based on supposition. Only evidence shown is that there is a Future Trunks from roughly the same point of time as the Future Trunks from timeline 2, and he looks the same (rather than, say, looking like GT Trunks, which would imply similar circumstances to timeline 1 to have taken place).

Trunks (probably) destroys the artificial humans in this time. He is about to return to the past when he is killed by Imperfect Cel. We can assume that this Trunks had never met Cell, or he would have been better prepared for him.

Cell then uses Trunks' time machine to travel to our time. Apparently it was already set to our time frame. Piccolo supposses that this is because Trunks was coming to tell everyone that he'd killed the androids."

There are two really, really large plot twists created here, one of which can be explained, the other can't.

1/ If Trunks was coming back to tell everyone that he'd killed the Androids, why'd he have the machine set to one year before Freeza had shown up (before he'd met anyone). One possible answer is that he'd come to that time originally to inform everyone about the Androids (which means that the people of that timeline had known about them since before even Vegeta had turned up). The other is that Cell knocked the controls while getting in to the time machine, resetting the time coordinates.

2/ If Piccolo's theory is true, and assuming that Cell hadn't managed to kill Trunks, then we would have ended up with two Future Trunks' running around...one from timeline 1 (who knew about Cell from the past), and another from timeline 3 (who didn't, but still managed to kill him in the future). Which really makes no sense at all.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:32 pm

I think it should be considered Timeline 1 since the events there are the future. I don't know why, but when the timelines are drawn out, I find it less confusing when Mirai Trunks' is listed first.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:53 pm

Because he did NOT destroy the androids in TL4, at least according to the daizenshuu. I dunno if this Trunks is a bastich or what but for some reason he took the remote and returned to his own timeline. My theory was that he intended to go back into TL4 when TL5 Cell would arrive in embryo form and destroy him, and then give the Z crew the remote and medicine. Maybe thinking no fuss no muss since they wouldn't have to live through the androids+Cell and lead a normal life. Unfortunately time travel doesn't work that way so the machine was going into the manga TL instead of TL4. TL3 Cell pops up and kills Trunks and the rest is history.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:55 pm

It's because his is the only timeline really unaffected by timetravel, so it could conceivably be the "original" one.

Er, apart from 3. But there are two differences. One is that timeline 3's Trunks doesn't know about Cell, and two...it never had it's own TV Special. This obviously makes it less important.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:02 am

But they're ALL affected by time travel! Trunks from TL3 brought back a remote from another timeline that affected the natural order of things. Trunks from the tv special brought back strength and training acquired from the manga timeline that affected the natural order of things.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:05 am

Well, nobody ever travelled to the Mirai Trunks timeline, right? Other than those who were originally there coming back.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:09 am

So what? Doesn't mean they weren't effected by it.

I think the "main" timeline should be the one in the manga. If it weren't, then we would have had more info about Trunks' timeline and Dragonball would have followed his timeline after he destroyed Cell, not return to the manga timeline.

Zackarotto · Post by **Zackarotto** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:17 am

I actually agree with you, but you gotta try and see it from both sides.

Check back at my previous posts, I called the one we follow TL1.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:39 am

Zacky's got what I meant. Okay, "affected" probably wasn't the best word, but I was saying that the Trunks TV Special Timeline never had anyone arrive in it. The only way it was affected was by Trunks gaining additional knowledge and strength, which he possibly could have in his own timeline, if he'd happened to have accidently wandered up to Kami's lookout and found the Room of Spirit and Time.

I can also see making the anime timeline into number 1, but my reasoning is that Trunks Timeline HAS to happen before the main timeline, hence it should be numbered before it.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:41 am

Dayspring wrote: Trunks from TL3 brought back a remote from another timeline that affected the natural order of things.

And that's only a theory, remember.

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:45 am

The reason its timeline 1 is because it makes it easier for chart usage, otherwise you have bars all OVER the place messey and such ^^;;

Its more of an effectiveness of chart thing for me anyway

Future Trunk's timeline goes into main timeline, and cells timeline goes into main timeline, making bars from them going to main timeline much easier to show if its 1, 2 and 3 respectively. From there we go into created timeline order with 4 and the possible 5 (I only made the second chart for the daizenshuu obsessed, chart 1 is what I go by).

Plus you could also go by timeline "creation" issues.

One could argue we were watching timeline 1 up until Trunks came back in time, and it BECAME timeline 2 diverging from the way it first happened (Trunk's world). Next comes Timeline 3, a parallel dimension with timeline 3 but with diffrent outcomes, and IT created timeline 4. And timeline 5 just sort of is the next number so ^^;

majinboogc · Post by **majinboogc** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:41 am

I have the answer!!! There are a total of four timelines. There are three timelines which have been proven that exist and another, theoretical but essential, one similar to the GT timeline. When I refer to the GT timeline I mean the concurrent timeline that eventually continues onto GT. In the theoretical timeline all the events are exactly mirrored except for the fact that Cell never appeared and the androids were destroyed. (By the remote maybe, who knows?) After defeating the androids Trunks goes back home and defeats the androids and encounters Cell. Cell kills Trunks and goes to the GT timeline. Without the theoretical timeline, the Trunks who is killed by Cell would be inexplicable and would be a MAJOR paradox/plot hole. Its too late to draw a map of the timelines so if anyone is up for it…

It’s time for mimis…

Zzzzz…

laserkid · Post by **laserkid** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:54 am

Read the thread some

Thats all well and good if you ignore the Daizenshuus, and thats what most of us have decided to do....

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 11:57 pm

I've quoted below the conversation between Piccolo and Cell in the manga version. I think everyone should take a look at it. This one's from the Viz version by the way.

Cell: "But when I was activated in the future, Nos. 17 and 18 were gone. I don't know how, defeated by Trunks perhaps. But luckily, Trunks had his time machine. I killed him, took it, and came here looking for Nos. 17 and 18...and here we are."

Piccolo: "...But why did you choose three years ago?"

Cell: "I didnt. Trunks had reprogrammed the machine to that year, and I just pushed the button."

Piccolo thinking: "...Of course...Trunks probably wanted to come tell us that he was able to destroy the Androids in the future..."

So according to the manga, it was just three years ago and not four like the anime says. Three years would certainly make more sense. Hmmm, this is a conundrum, did the anime mess up? If it was just tree years, then that could correspond to shortly after Trunks informs Goku of #17 and #18, as well aas hi heart disease.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:14 am

It's possibly VIZ trying to correct a "mistake".

Although does 3 years make any more sense? If we assume that this timeline is the same as ours, then Trunks returning to that time would be before he returned the second time. Er, if you get what I mean.

It only really makes sense if Timeline 3 Alt-Trunks never went back a second time. Which reminds me...why did our Trunks return to the past? Was it to inform everyone that the future hadn't altered? If so, why did he wait 3 years after his first visit?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:23 am

Doesn't he say at one point that he came back to help them and see if he could discover how to beat the ones in his time? I'm pretty sure he does. And yeah, it could be Viz trying to correct the mistake. It would be helpful if we could get someone to do an exact translation of the Japanese version of the manga. Also other languages might be interesting to see how it's translated too.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:27 am

Jerseymilk wrote:So according to the manga, it was just three years ago and not four like the anime says. Three years would certainly make more sense. Hmmm, this is a conundrum, did the anime mess up? If it was just tree years, then that could correspond to shortly after Trunks informs Goku of #17 and #18, as well aas hi heart disease.

Actually, this is just a case of Steve's translations being better than Viz's.

In the Japanese manga, Piccolo says, "...Na-nande kono jidai o eranda..." Viz translated that line as, "...But why did you choose three years ago?" But on the DVD, the line is much more literally translated as, "W-why did you choose this era!?"

Apparently Viz chose to say "three years ago" instead of the literal "this era", which wouldn't be so bad, if it wasn't actually four years ago.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:40 am

Thanks for clearing that up TripleRach! It's like she read my mind!

I was afraid Viz's translation might be off. Darn it! So we have to disregard Viz's translation of three years ago. I think it would be better to just concentrate on Steve's translation of the conversation in the anime.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:50 am

Maybe. Hmm. How does the conversation go (on both the subs and Viz manga) when Trunks and co find the "old" time machine? Do they say how old it appears to be?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 12:55 am

I don't remember, but since I'm a pathetic loser with nothing better to do right now, I can check and see right now. Hold on.

EDIT:Okay, I've just checked my Funi DVD copy, for anyone who wants to know, the scene is on the first Imperfect Cell DVD-Encounter, Funi episode 125, Japanese episode 140. Here is Steve Simmons' translation of the conversation in this scene concerning the time machine.

Trunks: "This is the time machine I came in, and had reduced to a Capsule."

Buruma: "Gee, then there"s no way this older one could be yours."

Trunks: "Not exactly. You only built one time machine in the future. This
is also the very same time machine I used to come back in."

Buruma: "No way."

Trunks: "Look at this."

Buruma: "Hope?"

Trunks: "Yeah. These are the letters you wrote here when I took off. Naturally, they appear on the other time machineas well."

Buruma: "But how can that be? It looks like this one has been here for quite a while."

(After this Trunks and Gohan open up the time machine, find the strange objects inside, Buruma deduces that they must be eggshells, then Trunks starts checking the time machine and the conversation reverts back.)

Trunks: "The energy reserves are almost down to zero. It came here from...Age 788? That's three years later than the time I left. Three more years into the future! It arrived in this era...Nearly four years ago! This arrived here fully a year before I appeared the first time."

That's basically where the info we need ends. Now for Viz's translation of the manga version.

Trunks: "Take a look. That's the time machine I had in capsule form."

Buruma: "Oh! So this isn't yours then..."

Trunks: "N-no...you only made one time machine in the future...This one is also my time machine. Look here...I wrote this the day I left..." (Trunks shows Buruma and Gohan the "HOPE!!" writing.)

Buruma: "...B-but...I don't understand... It seems like this machine has been here a long time..."

(Again, Gohan and Trunks open up the machine, find the eggshells and discuss them.)

Trunks: "...The batteries are nearly out of power...It came from...Age 788!! Three years further in the future...from when I left...!"

Buruma: "What...?!"

Trunks: "It came here...about four years ago...It was here for a whole year before I came last time!"

So those are the two versions. It seems Viz messed up and said two different amounts of time in two different scenes. Tsk, silly Viz. Once again, it would be great if we could get a literal translation of the Japanese manga version *cough* TripleRach? *cough* And also other countries' translations too would be interesting.

Kanzenshuu

Timeline Discussion

Who is online