Why all the hate for Cell and Buu Sagas?

[Perfect]

Well he was in space, via filler.


Also, I think this shot just looks plain awesome...

[dbgtFO]

@ Perfect
When was that? during the ten days before the tournament??

[hleV]

While many people (including myself) would agree that the best way to end Dragon Ball was with Freeza arc, I can't really imagine Dragon Ball without Cell or Boo arcs. Dragon Ball was getting more and more serious with time and this hard-seriousness ended with Cell arc, which, gladly, isn't the last arc of Dragon Ball. Humorous character Gotenks and the most advanced transformations were introduced in the Boo arc, and transformations are an important part of Dragon Ball, so Boo arc is fine.

[Xyex]

Really don't need to turn this into a Star Wars discussion but, no, that's not true in the least. George Lucas and Toriyama Akira wrote their respective... opuses... opi... hmm... in much the same way. The difference is Toriyama actually has the Dragon Balls to admit that he made it up as he went along while Lucas would rather just lie to you. But to offer you proof, let me just inform you that the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back has Luke meeting the ghost of his father on Dagobah, which ever so slightly keeps him from being Darth Vader.

But that was never actually produced and so in no part of the actual Star Wars universe is Vader not Skywalker. You can claim it was a retcon if you like but it still wasn't because there was no continuity prior to the reveal that he was Skywalker. The comments made in the first movie are not continuity proclaiming that they are different people because never in those comments was it explicitly stated they were separate individuals, that the two ever had a direct face-to-face meeting, or anything of that nature. In fact, the given evasiveness to the topic stands as support for the later reveal of Vader as Anakin.

Hmm. Did you not read any of the rest of my post?

Yes, I did. Hence why I responded. My point is quite a simple one. Unless the retcon is a blatant contradiction of pre-existing material then the new information is always present. When it existed in the real-world is a completely irrelevant matter and has no bearing on anything, at all, and is merely pointless trivia, at best.

[Perfect]

@ Perfect
When was that? during the ten days before the tournament??

Yes, that's some awesome filler there. D:

[Daimo-Rukiri]

Freeza and cell were the best arcs in my opinion, loved Vegetto..he should have killed boo and ended it there.

[Rocketman]

loved Vegetto..he should have killed boo and ended it there.

This guy knows what's what.

[Gaffer Tape]

Really don't need to turn this into a Star Wars discussion but, no, that's not true in the least. George Lucas and Toriyama Akira wrote their respective... opuses... opi... hmm... in much the same way. The difference is Toriyama actually has the Dragon Balls to admit that he made it up as he went along while Lucas would rather just lie to you. But to offer you proof, let me just inform you that the first draft of The Empire Strikes Back has Luke meeting the ghost of his father on Dagobah, which ever so slightly keeps him from being Darth Vader.

But that was never actually produced and so in no part of the actual Star Wars universe is Vader not Skywalker. You can claim it was a retcon if you like but it still wasn't because there was no continuity prior to the reveal that he was Skywalker. The comments made in the first movie are not continuity proclaiming that they are different people because never in those comments was it explicitly stated they were separate individuals, that the two ever had a direct face-to-face meeting, or anything of that nature. In fact, the given evasiveness to the topic stands as support for the later reveal of Vader as Anakin.

Ugh. Again I have to reiterate I was not using the first draft as an example of canon in any way. I was using it to illustrate that it was consistent with the lines of dialogue IN THE FIRST MOVIE, and that those lines simply were not meant at that time to be interpreted at anything other than face value. In the first movie, it IS explicitly stated that they are separate people, so I'm not sure where you're getting that "there was no continuity prior to the reveal that he was Skywalker," except that you're letting the retcon do the thinking for you and using your information of the later plot developments to color your opinion of the dialogue in the first film. There's nothing vague or evasive about it. In the first draft of the sequel to that finished movie, that point remains consistent beyond a shadow of a doubt. It is only in later drafts (and by extension, the subsequent films) that that point is retroactively changed. Honestly, to make any other claims is to purposely ignore all evidence, Lucas's own quotes to the contrary, and, most importantly, Occam's Razor.

In case you're not familiar with the term, it basically means that if you have to choose among several different theories, the simplest is most often the most likely. And in an real-world perspective, drafts are indeed important because there is a progression to how authors craft stories, and if you look at its evolution through drafts and through subsequent sequels, you can see a linear progression of ideas. In all the early drafts of the first Star Wars, it is very clear that Darth Vader and the father of the protagonist are separate characters because they're both alive and both co-exist. As the drafts progress, the father character's death is pushed earlier and earlier into the story until it's pushed into the backstory. And then eventually Vader is given the role of executioner, the idea that continues in the finalized movie. So tell me which makes more sense, which makes better use of Occam's Razor. That the evolution of the story progresses from both characters having roles in the story (in the earliest drafts), to the father being killed by the villain offscreen (in the later drafts, final film, and first Empire draft), to the father and villain being merged into the same character (in ESB and subsequent materials) as I've laid out? Or that the evolution of the story progresses from both characters having roles in the story (earliest drafts), to the father being killed by the villain offscreen (later drafts), to the father and villain being merged into the same character (the final film), to the characters suddenly being split apart again (first ESB draft), only for them to be immediately merged again (ESB and subsequent materials), as you are attempting to lay out?

But this example is falling out of the realm of tangentially related to the topic and has crossed more into a topic of its own, one that is not in line with this site, so that's all I'm going to say on it. If you would like to debate Star Wars, my PM inbox is always open.

Hmm. Did you not read any of the rest of my post?

Yes, I did. Hence why I responded. My point is quite a simple one. Unless the retcon is a blatant contradiction of pre-existing material then the new information is always present. When it existed in the real-world is a completely irrelevant matter and has no bearing on anything, at all, and is merely pointless trivia, at best.

My point is also quite a simple one. Your methodology is ONLY relevant in an in-universe perspective. My methodology is ONLY relevant in a real-world/production perspective. But to go back to what got me to bring it up in the first place: if Toriyama had not invented... ugh, "Zenkais" at the time of the 23rd Tenkaichi Budoukai, there's absolutely no reason to believe that Piccolo ran away in the face of a plot device that not even Toriyama was aware of. It's simply impossible. You can rationalize that such a thing COULD have happened in the face of later information, but there is no evidence, in-universe or otherwise AT THAT TIME to support it. You can even launch a good argument that Goku MUST have gotten some boost in power, but "zenkais" themselves are so vague and inconsistent that even from an in-universe perspective, is that really conclusive proof that anything substantial happened?

Even alien biology aside, there's nothing to so much as hint that Goku is any stronger after the senzu than he was before. Even if you completely dismiss the creator's viewpoint and look at everything from an in-universe perspective, assigning Piccolo this particular motive FOR FLEEING (which is how this debate started... just the reason for Piccolo leaving after being completely healed, nothing more) falls squarely in the realm of fan speculation, nothing more. Does it happen to make sense? Yes, of course. But is there anything to back up this motive? Not much. Nothing conclusive. In the end, it seems you're arguing that because of information we later learn, Goku might have gotten a big power boost after his senzu. And because of this maybe happening, that might have possibly given Piccolo motivation to leave. This isn't even saying that Goku turned into a giant ape at Pilaf's castle because of his later-introduced Saiya-jin biology. Assigning Piccolo a motive here is complete speculation based on other speculation based on a not clearly-defined trait based on a solidly-defined retcon.

I have to say you're being a bit stubborn. I've given credence to your point of view, but you continue to argue that mine is "irrelevant." They're simply incompatible with one another, nothing more. I tend to look at things from the writer's perspective. You seem to tend to look at things from the fictional perspective. What's the big deal?

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

loved Vegetto..he should have killed boo and ended it there.

This guy knows what's what.

But then Gokū and Vegeta would be permanently fused. I don't think that would be a good end to the series.

[Hellspawn28]

^Well they can always use the dragon balls to make them unfuse together. .

[Rory]

loved Vegetto..he should have killed boo and ended it there.

This guy knows what's what.

But then Gokū and Vegeta would be permanently fused. I don't think that would be a good end to the series.

Shunkan Ido to planet Namek. Wish for everybody to come back to life, the earth to be repaired, and for the fusion to wear off.
A little anti-climatic? Sure, I guess. It could've still happened though.

[NEG]

Cell and Buu arcs have their moments, but for me DB ends at Fri/eza.

Cell storyline was fairly respectable only for Cell himself. You could accept, via having last seasons bad guy DNA, that he could be just as strong as, you know, some guy who ruled over galaxies. But predicting super saiyan speed and abilities, or pretty much most things after the Z-heroes went into space, Dr Gero being able to design strength, what, a hundred times more then the previous arc was too stupid to be believable.
The androids themselves made even far less sense to be stronger then a super saiyan.

But as a character Cell was interesting, having all the knowledge of all these characters inside him, even being influenced in certain ways due to such and such personality trait (wanting to fight a stronger opponent, setting up the tourny, very believable that those Goku genes probably made him do that, well in my mind at least).
It was also a chance to advance/finish the 'Gohan managing his hidden power, turns out stronger then any other' plot that admittedly the previous arcs led to. Actual character development.

Goku or Vegeta finishing off Mecha F would have also been far more fitting.

With Buu everything just became a lot more ridiculous to believe, and perhaps more importantly, pointless. I really don't need to dwell much more about that arc. Super saiyan kids is about all I can mention without wanting to rip out my hair (Gohan's, for note, was at least believable, sort of, well ok that was just as iffy to some degree) Granted however it was the only arc that achieved my mother to take notice of the show and wanted to watch "that funny Buu guy that turns people into chocolate".

Namek should have exploded taking Goku with it. Saved the universe. Turned Super. Avenged saiyan race. The end. (with perhaps Vegeta remaining dead also)

[Rocketman]

Shunkan Ido to planet Namek. Wish for everybody to come back to life, the earth to be repaired, and for the fusion to wear off.
A little anti-climatic? Sure, I guess. It could've still happened though.

The Dragon can't affect beings stronger than its creator, and Vegetto is his own being who wouldn't want to die just so ~GOKU~ can come back.

[Goku100xKamehameha]

loved Vegetto..he should have killed boo and ended it there.

This guy knows what's what.

But then Gokū and Vegeta would be permanently fused. I don't think that would be a good end to the series.

And Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Majin Boo would died.