Why do people 'cap out' the humans? A long rant/essay

[Michsi]

OK then, pointed out by me in that case, with things stated in the story.

[Saiga]

OK then, pointed out by me in that case, with things stated in the story.

Even after rereading it, I'm just not feeling it.

[012yArthur0]

I don't know. Tenshinhan learning the mafuba in one day(?) a technique that took years to develope after he saw just once seems just as exagerated to me.

The Kamehameha took 50 years to develop as well, copying another person's technique doesn't seem to be as hard as inventing it.

If I know, Roshi took 50 years to "Copy" the move from Son Gohan itself.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

If I know, Roshi took 50 years to "Copy" the move from Son Gohan itself.

What? Kame Sennin invented this technique, so Gohan most likely learned it from him.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Side note: If Kuririn continued to receive the added boost from Guru during his 3 years of training (and we don't have any reason to believe he didn't), then it isn't really far-fetched to assume he made it into the low-millions by the time Dr. Gero and Android #19 showed up. That'd mean Tenshinhan and Yamcha probably got left in the dust, but even then we don't have a clue as how powerful they became after Kaio's training.

It's not farfetched, but there's no real reason to assume that, since the whole "latent power kept on rising" thing was a plot device, designed so that he (and Gohan) could keep up with Freeza and his men (and Vegeta), without the need for massive Zenkais.

And if you're going to go by the assumption that Kuririn continued to recieve the added boost for the Great Elder, then Gohan must've as well. Yet he wasn't deemed as anything special or remotely close to Piccolo and/or the other Saiyans until after his stint in the RoSaT. I think it's safe to say that it'd stopped once they actually started fighting Freeza, so there's no story-wise reason for them to progress any further (especially Gohan, who gets a Zenkai after he's stomped by Freeza).

[Toadster]

Saiga, I realize humans don't get zenkais. The point is, Vegeta and Goku received a massive zenkai that made absolutely no sense, especially considering the relative consistency of the zenkais up to that point. That zenkai they received is a far greater stretch and provides more fan theories than the humans surpassing the Ginyu Force in a short amount of time. Is it a stretch they gained that much power? Sure, but it's nothing implausible given the element of large power-jumps throughout the series. To say that is the only instance of BS power jumps is asinine. You want BS filler power? Yamcha destroying Olibu, when Olibu was putting up a good fight against Paikuhan. Now that's BS.

And what I went on to say is that one massive power up doesn't justify separate characters getting massive power ups. IIRC those Zenkais were commented on by Vegeta as being unusual and he attributes it to being closer to becoming a Super Saiyan at the time, so the fan theories are more just accepting Vegeta's take on it.

It is implausible, because power level jumps like that don't always just happen without explanation. Just because there are some really large increases in story doesn't make it acceptable to toss in some more for the sake of making the humans out to be better than they actually are.

Yes, Yamcha beating Olibu was BS filler. So was the humans defeating the Ginyu force.

...When was it ever commented that being close to a SSJ gives you insanely higher zenkais? That's just the common fan theory that has ran around for ages. That is never once supported by dialogue in the story.

BS power boosts like Vegeta and Goku doesn't justify other large BS power boosts, but at least the filler is not inconsistent with the manga, considering the other large BS power boosts going on. It's just a comic, I don't now why you're taking this so seriously.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Note that the super huge near-death power ups Goku & Vegeta got were their last ones. Just... Saiyan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Note that the super huge near-death power ups Goku & Vegeta got were their last ones. Just... Saiyan.

Well, last that we know of and/or were noticeable/noted within the story. Super Saiyan pretty much eclipsed any Zenkais that the characters may've gotten (or otherwise "used up" the dormant power that they could draw from Zenkais or whatever), and the last Zenkai from anyone we saw in the series was Cell, after he miraculously survived his own self-destruction.

[Bussani]

...When was it ever commented that being close to a SSJ gives you insanely higher zenkais? That's just the common fan theory that has ran around for ages. That is never once supported by dialogue in the story.

This is the line he was talking about:

Chapter: 289 (DBZ 95), P6.1-2
Context: after Jheese freaks out over Vegeta's new battle power
Vegeta: “That’s right…I’ve surpassed Saiyan limits, and my strength is still increasing more and more…The truth is that I’ve realized it too…That this extension of my power isn’t merely what you’d call giftedness…In other words…I’m steadily drawing near…to becoming a Super Saiyan!”

BS power boosts like Vegeta and Goku doesn't justify other large BS power boosts, but at least the filler is not inconsistent with the manga, considering the other large BS power boosts going on.

When you compare how they're getting those boosts, I'd say it is inconsistent. Goku went from 8,000 to 90,000 in those five days by training in up to 100 times Earth's gravity and abusing the hell out of his race's natural ability, not to mention the magic beans he had at his disposal. You're saying it makes perfect sense for the humans to go from (using Tenshinhan as an example) 1,830 to 60,000 or more in those same days, without the near-death-power-ups and in much less gravity.

Possible? Maybe. Consistent? Not really. So I can easily see why people pause and question it.

It's just a comic, I don't now why you're taking this so seriously.

You're in this conversation, too. You can't just turn around and accuse your fellow fans of taking something too seriously when you're still replying yourself.

[Olympian]

I don't see how they could even keep up with the base Saiyans. They got left behind really early on, and this was before they started getting the insane boosts from recovering from near death. Goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one boost, and the humans have nothing like that available to them. Sure, it's not impossible, but it seems very unlikely.

What are you using as "base Sayians"?

They certainly got stronger than most Sayians were, throught the series. Even Chaotzu must have went further than someone like Raditz, at the end of the series, when we know he had training done for the androids and did another training bit during the Buu arc when he was shown being the only one, other than Ten dodging and surving Buu`s attack.

If you mean "Super Sayians" I would agree. Gero`s implication that Yamcha was = base Goku of the previous arc, certainly hints to that, but again, it`s also hinted that they had to fight beings (Cell Jrs) that were stronger than Freeza. They didn`t win or anything, but just surviving broken limbs seems a feat on itself for me.

Goku told them not to come if they thought themselves too weak, hence Chaozu not coming

I think what he said was, "You don't have to come if you don't want to," but I'd have to check how it's worded in Japanese. It was Tenshinhan who decided Chaozu shouldn't come.

Ten always protected Chautzu too much, even against King Piccolo and the Sayians. This time, Chautzu not coming (and thus agreeing with Ten`s decision) probably says that he actually did believed he would be of no use at all, unlike the other two ocassions.

[Saiga]

I don't see how they could even keep up with the base Saiyans. They got left behind really early on, and this was before they started getting the insane boosts from recovering from near death. Goku went from 90,000 to 3,000,000 in one boost, and the humans have nothing like that available to them. Sure, it's not impossible, but it seems very unlikely.

What are you using as "base Sayians"?

By base Saiyans I mean the last surviving Saiyans in their untransformed state. Goku, Vegeta et al.

They certainly got stronger than most Sayians were, throught the series. Even Chaotzu must have went further than someone like Raditz, at the end of the series, when we know he had training done for the androids and did another training bit during the Buu arc when he was shown being the only one, other than Ten dodging and surving Buu`s attack.

Yes, I believe that they definitely surpassed the average Saiyan battle power level. I meant to say that they couldn't keep up with the Saiyans the story focuses on, who are exceptional by Saiyan standards much like the humans are exceptional by their standards. But I don't think they could ever keep up with Goku, Vegeta et al even without factoring transformations because the battle power of the Saiyans grows too damn high during the Namek arc - and they were already struggling not to fall behind before that point.

If you mean "Super Sayians" I would agree. Gero`s implication that Yamcha was = base Goku of the previous arc, certainly hints to that, but again, it`s also hinted that they had to fight beings (Cell Jrs) that were stronger than Freeza. They didn`t win or anything, but just surviving broken limbs seems a feat on itself for me.

Not the previous arc, but the arc prior to that. Gero didn't observe them on Namek after all, he merely predicted Goku's growth based on what he observed from the battle with the Saiyans. So Yamcha is likely to be stronger than Saiyan Arc Goku, but that's not really surprising to me. I already had him being higher than that.

And the Cell Jr fight doesn't suggest anything about their strengths because they're completely helpless the entire time.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Goku told them not to come if they thought themselves too weak, hence Chaozu not coming

I think what he said was, "You don't have to come if you don't want to," but I'd have to check how it's worded in Japanese. It was Tenshinhan who decided Chaozu shouldn't come.

Ten always protected Chautzu too much, even against King Piccolo and the Sayians. This time, Chautzu not coming (and thus agreeing with Ten`s decision) probably says that he actually did believed he would be of no use at all, unlike the other two ocassions.

I think it's because both of them knew that they'd be killed by the Androids in the future, so Tenshinhan told him to stay back, not wanting to lose him a second time. Tenshinhan himself wasn't scared about dying, since he mentioned that he wanted to know just what he could do in battle, and if he died, then it'd be an honourable death. But Chaozu was like his little brother, and I think Tenshinhan would've been harder on him this time, with so much more at stake.

[Mystic Gohan]

Logic isn't really a strong point in DB. I thought i pointed out a few example of ridiculous boosts. If the humans need a boost, AT will do it regardless of how little time they have. He did it with Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan.

[Piccolo Daimao]

If the humans need a boost, AT will do it regardless of how little time they have. He did it with Gotenks, Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan.

But after the Freeza arc, the Earthlings don't need a boost, because they don't do anything. Gokuu, Gohan, Gotenks, Piccolo and Vegeta do do things. They fight the primary bad guys, train in the RoSaT, merge with other beings, get transformations...all to get stronger. The Earthlings? Not so much. After Kaiou's training, they just continue training on Earth, in the same conditions that they've already mastered and are just going through the motions. And, aside from anime filler, we don't even know how much they improved from that, since we aren't given anything to go by.

[Mystic Gohan]

Everyone besides Chaotzu thought they could be of some assistance against the androids.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Everyone besides Chaotzu thought they could be of some assistance against the androids.

So? Everyone thought they could be of assistance against fucking Cell at the Cell Games, despite the fact that they believed only Gokuu stood a chance against him. They didn't count on Cell popping out a bunch of his children for them to go up against, and subsequently get wrecked. And the only reason Chaozu stayed behind is because Tenshinhan, his guardian, made him, since they both trained and Tenshinhan apparently only decided last minute that Chaozu shouldn't come along. This is like the situation with the Saiyans, with the significant difference being that Tenshinhan knew he'd die in the future and he didn't want to risk losing him a second time. There's no guarantee they could just pop to Namek and use their DBs again, especially considering how hard it was for Gokuu to find the planet in the first place.

Just because the Earthlings went along for the ride doesn't mean that they're suddenly stronger than Freeza or the Androids now, considering they don't do anything to suggest that. I think Piccolo and other characters even say that they can't handle the Androids or Cell, and Tenshinhan himself declines a trip in the RoSaT because he can't fight Cell.

Yamcha gets his energy absorbed by #20 and is later defeated by a Cell Junior. Kuririn is knocked out in one hit by Perfect Cell, who doesn't even flinch at his attacks, and is later defeated by a Cell Junior. Tenshinhan gets choked unconscious by #17 and is later defeated by a Cell Junior.

[Mystic Gohan]

Gero called Yamcha's energy amazing. He implied that the humans + Piccolo(b4 he got his ass kicked) + his own power > Vegeta. That implies that the humans got pretty strong imo.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Gero called Yamcha's energy amazing. He implied that the humans + Piccolo(b4 he got his ass kicked) + his own power > Vegeta. That implies that the humans got pretty strong imo.

Again, so? I don't see how "amazing" automatically means "stronger than so-and-so". They all presumably surpassed the doctor's calculations, which supposedly is why Yamcha was mistaken for Gokuu (assumedly, this means Yamcha's stronger than Saiyan arc Gokuu at the least) and Gero (yes, before he realized that Piccolo too was much stronger than he'd expected) believed that his power added to Piccolo and the Earthlings would surpass Vegeta.

But Gero's an arrogant villain (suffering from Villain Stupidity Disorder) who trusted far too much in his meaningless calculations that meant nothing to the heroes that had gone through tremendous power increases since the battle with the Saiyans, on Namek and training for the Androids. He goofed up with Gokuu (even after he transformed into a Super Saiyan, he still trusted in his stubborn data that #19 could defeat him, even if that was by somehow managing to absorb his energy).

And just because Gero may think that isn't conclusive evidence. We don't know if it's a "1 + 1" thing like that anyway, and battle powers aren't even a thing in this arc. Nothing we've been shown thus far has "proved" anything in favour of the Earthlings getting some miraculous, plot-independent boost that we didn't see them do anything with. They were either completely passive, not fighting anyone, or easily beaten in every fight after Freeza. And their uselessness is made a point of numerous times, since Piccolo and the (Super) Saiyans are the only things that matter and can do anything worth a damn anymore.

[Godo]

@Godo

You mean they surpassed them in filler.

Well, Kuririn at least surpassed all members but Capn' Ginyu (who was second only to Freeza), so that counts for something right?
But either way, for an Earthling to even reach levels higher than, say, Dodoria and Zarbon's is a pretty huge feat (for an Earthling, that is).
Remember that everyone clearly underestimated the humans on Namek, whilst they took caution with Vegeta.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

Well, Kuririn at least surpassed all members but Capn' Ginyu (who was second only to Freeza)

Did he?