Was Gohan "Ultimate" in Movie #12?

[Mystic Gohan]

Where did it ever say Gohan got weaker during the 7 year gap. From what I can tell, he just made no improvement.

Chapter: 444 (DBZ 250), P7.1-4
Gohan: “Well, I’ve become a Super Saiyan. Now what? Is it alright if I fight like this?”
Kibito: “…Wh-what tremendous power…I can’t believe he’s a being of the lower world!”
Vegeta: “…Hmph…That bastard, he was far, far better when he killed Cell. It’s because he slacked off in his training during peacetime…”
Kaioshin: “…No, even so this is magnificent energy, more so than I imagined…I wonder if I’ll be able to stop this power…”
Goku: “…Stop it?”

[Insertclevername]

I'm sure there is a source backing up that Gohan can't draw power from his anger anymore, which would make sense in your quote. At the Cell Games, Gohan was enraged so his power was higher that what it normally would be, while at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai, he wasn't really angry at all so his battle power was normal, not that him being angry makes a difference because by that time he was more in control of his emotions, he wouldn't gain power from rage.

[Mystic Gohan]

How can Vegeta make that judgement if Gohan isn't angry yet? He knows that Gohan gains power from rage, and as you said, Gohan ain't angry at the budokai. Regardless, you're interpretation is still valid.

[Insertclevername]

Well, I never take anything Vegeta says too literally, most of the time he's wrong anyway or just bringing people down condescendingly; so for all we know that little comment could have just him being a dick like usual and not some end all, be all judgement of Gohan's power.

[Fox666]

I'm aware but its apparent they got stronger. I mean look at Piccolo Pre Kami fusion. He was able to get so strong that he could take Android 20 who absorbed a bit of Vegeta's SSJ Ki in only 3 years. Why would Goku receive less than Piccolo when he is a Saiyan its pretty much common knowledge that Saiyans get stronger at a faster rate than the other Z-fighters? I see no reason myself.

It doesn't really need a reason. These increases are plot devices, and they are as great as the story need them to be. That's why Piccolo improved so much during these 3 years compared to Goku or Vegeta.

No these gains were never stated to have disappeared they merely became unnoticeable or were not delved into much. Why on Earth would the Saiyans lose an ability that really defines them? I personally think that after ascending to SSJ the Zenkai's dropped in effectiveness but are still there. Zenkais can be anywhere from a 1.5x increase to a 15x increase depending on the situation at this point in time IMO I certainly dont think they disappeared. I personally think that Zenkai's kept growing in the Freeza saga because of how many they had received and how powerful they were when they had received them played a part as well. The stronger you were the greater the Zenkai the numerous amount you had increased in effectiveness so to speak.

I meant they disappeared as part of the story (except a single time with Cell).

[DBZGTKOSDH]

These increases are plot devices, and they are as great as the story need them to be. That's why Piccolo improved so much during these 3 years compared to Goku or Vegeta.

Except that we don't know how strong Piccolo got, and also he didn't need to be very stronger, since his power wasn't put on any use until he merged with Kami.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I'm aware but its apparent they got stronger. I mean look at Piccolo Pre Kami fusion. He was able to get so strong that he could take Android 20 who absorbed a bit of Vegeta's SSJ Ki in only 3 years. Why would Goku receive less than Piccolo when he is a Saiyan its pretty much common knowledge that Saiyans get stronger at a faster rate than the other Z-fighters? I see no reason myself.

It doesn't really need a reason. These increases are plot devices, and they are as great as the story need them to be. That's why Piccolo improved so much during these 3 years compared to Goku or Vegeta.

Dude I cant take that seriously. There is nothing that suggest base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. PIS is not gonna cut it this time =/.

No these gains were never stated to have disappeared they merely became unnoticeable or were not delved into much. Why on Earth would the Saiyans lose an ability that really defines them? I personally think that after ascending to SSJ the Zenkai's dropped in effectiveness but are still there. Zenkais can be anywhere from a 1.5x increase to a 15x increase depending on the situation at this point in time IMO I certainly dont think they disappeared. I personally think that Zenkai's kept growing in the Freeza saga because of how many they had received and how powerful they were when they had received them played a part as well. The stronger you were the greater the Zenkai the numerous amount you had increased in effectiveness so to speak.

I meant they disappeared as part of the story (except a single time with Cell).

How do you know that? If Cell got one why does everyone else not get one? I think they still get them but they are like 1.5-2x boosts which dont make a huge difference at first but later do within the ROSAT.

[hleV]

I don't think Zenkais are multipliers. The biggest Zenkai prior to Cell was Goku's - 2,910,000. And that kind of a Zenkai is apparently very rare. So even if the Saiyans had received some minor Zenkais later on in the series, it wouldn't have been of much importance.
When it comes down to Cell, he literally had to regenerate every cell of his body. Naturally he'd get a big boost out of Zenkai.

[Hitiro]

How were the Zenkai's insignificant? something as simple as a 1.5-2x boost is pretty good. Seriously with all the training they do in the ROSAT I wouldnt be suprised if they got like 1 or 2 Zenkais a month. Seriously a 1.5x boost 12 times is massive. Keep in in mind that this is a gradual increase in effectiveness since that is 1.5 to the 12 power. Thats about a 48x increase on top of the Ki increase through training. Why is Cell's Zenkai any different? If Cell gets a massive Zenkai after a near death situation why not anyone else? They would have noted it? Why? Its pretty clear tha Zenkai's are prevelent based on Cell. Like Toriyama said himself power levels were incalcuable past the Freeza saga. Just because you cant notice the Zenkai's doesnt mean they are insignificant. For all you know android 18 could have been greatly stronger than SSJ Vegeta and even a Zenkai didint get Vegeta stronger than 18. You are entitled to your opinion of thinking Zenkai's took a huge hit and that training only yeilds a small result but that isnt a fact.

There wouldn't be any meaning to Piccolo becoming so strong if Zenkai's and power gains were anything close to an increase of 1.5x lets say, for arguments sake, Goku was still at a powerlevel of 3 million and see what happens if we increase his powerlevel with a 1.5x zenkai or even a general gain of 1.5x. It would look something like this.

Base Goku: 3 million
SSJ Goku: 150 million
Now lets say Piccolo(Fused with Kami) is around 200 million.

Now both Goku and Piccolo train and Goku gets an extra 1.5 million(1.5x power gain from Zenkai or general training, whatever you feel comfortable with.) Piccolo also gets an extra 1.5 million from sheer training. Lets compare how they stack up.

Base Goku: 4.5 million
SSJ Goku: 225 million
Piccolo(Fused with Kami): 201.5 million

As you can see from the comparison Goku easily surpasses Piccolo without any real problems. So if such increases were happening why would Vegeta be so shaken up by Piccolo's powerlevel? He would blow by it with a couple of Zenkai's if it were the case that they got a 1.5x boost. The only real reason Cell got such a large Zenkai is because unlike the Saiyan's he can be almost totally destroyed. Saiyan's don't have that level of endurance. They can't blow themselves up and regenerate from one brain cell. Sure they can suffer quite a lot of damage but not to the extent Cell can. His brush with death is really the closest brush with death you could possibly have which is why the Zenkai was so effective for him. Also Toriyama didn't really say power levels were incalculable past the Frieza saga. He merely stated that the powerlevels were becoming so large that there was no point in continuing to calculate them. When your characters are close to the billions I see no reason why he should be keeping track of their powerlevels, its just tedious work on his part.

Oh as for the Cell Jr thing. Piccolo is still getting beat. Piccolo might be able to fight back, barely, but even still he is getting beaten like everyone else. The Cell Jr's are clearly toying with all of them.

I suggest you re-read the chapter because there is no panel showing Piccolo getting beat up, so this is just your opinion. The only panel we do see of Piccolo is after Gohan turns SSJ2 and he is standing up with pretty much minimal damage compared to everyone except Trunks and Vegeta. The Cell Jr's may have been toying with them but I doubt they would leave Piccolo standing, just cause, and I refer you to my previous post. The exact words, from the Japanese text, Cell uses when the Cell Jr's are fighting the Z warriors indicates that someone, or a couple of people, were putting up a fight. Seeing as Piccolo is the only one standing other than Trunks and Vegeta its safe to assume it is him.

Dabura cant sense the energy of a SSJ =/. Why do you think he was so suprised when Goku transformed and by the 3,000 Kiri's? Furthermore Dabura can only sense a lot of energy. He doesnt know 100% how strong the 7 are but he is still more impressed by the 3 and disreguards Piccolo.

I probably worded this badly so this is my fault. What I was trying to say is Dabura can tell a persons potential, so with regards to the Saiyan's they have a high potential because they have the SSJ form. Dabura doesn't know this information only that have a deep hidden power which is probably what he's referring to. Of course he was surprised by how strong they were but that was because he knew they had hidden strength, he just didn't know how much. I have brought this up before but I believe a character, who has a great fighting sense, can judge that a fighter is not near their limit, they just don't know how far from that limit they are. But they can still gauge a difference in strength between two individuals. Taking Cell for example, Korin knew that Cell was stronger than Goku. He just didn't know by how much. Its only until a warrior releases all of their power that the opponent realises that's their maximum strength. Another example is Goku against Freeza, he knew Freeza was still holding back and he knew Freeza was stronger than him but he didn't believe he was still not even using half of his power. Thats why Goku took the gamble and used the Kaioken x20 in a last attempt to finish him before he himself was defeated. However, there is a limit to this. For instance, if somebody is surpressing their power by a great deal it can be hard to judge how if they are stronger than certain people. For example, Goku arriving on Namek. His friends couldn't tell how much stronger he was because he was surpressing his power by a great deal.

As for the Pui Pui gravity thing. Vegeta is used to such physical torture. He trains physically quite often. I suppose I should have worded that statement a little differently. What I meant to say was it doesnt matter how much energy you have, if your physical body isnt used to something its not gonna take it well. For example, Goku's Ki is enough to rip planets apart yet he is hard pressed to move with something as simple as 40 tons. Vegeta being able to train under 300x gravity probably also comes from all those Zenkai's he revieved on Namek. Zenkai's for all we know can increase physical strength and endurance as well as Ki. It would make a lot of sense.

Thats a fair enough assumption but what of characters who don't get Zenkai's? I refer you to Tien, Yamcha and Chaozu. They don't receive any sort of Zenkai boost yet when they arrived at King Kai's planet they were already able to cope with the gravity much better than Goku could when he arrived. So any character with a high enough powerlevel should be able to withstand X amount of gravity. I think your confused on the matter of energy. Ki in martial arts strengthens everything in the body. So as long as you have a great amount of Ki it strengthens your body. Training your body is one way of building up its strength, but it can also be strengthened through ki. Saiyan's are just lucky that they have natural physical body strength(from evolution to cope with being born on a planet with 10g's) as well as the amplifying their bodies through ki, which they can gain quite a lot of.

Wrong, kind of, Babidi states in Ch 451 pg 9 something along the lines of this, "Yakon kill all of them except for Kaioshin!" This implies that Yakon is capable of taking Kaioshin. I see no reason for Babidi to think his monster superior to a Kai unless he knows how strong his mosnter is which he does, 800 Kiris comes to mind. The Saiyans are mere mortals of an extinct race. Babidi has no reason to believe that the Saiyans are anything special.

Is this line the exact same in the Japanese version of the manga? Because things have been left out before. Such as the line Cell says about Trunks and Vegeta being the only ones to handle themselves when the sentence really just names those to as examples pointing to there being more individuals who can handle themselves(Like Piccolo). And to be honest Babidi instantly sent Yakon to his home world for him to have an advantage. The Kaioshin isn't really a warrior, or martial artist, so I doubt he'd be able to take on an opponent in the dark. Gohan seems to pretty confident that Goku can beat Yakon but after they are teleported to his homeworld and Yakon renders Goku's SSJ form useless as he can just suck in the light energy Gohan says he'll help Goku fight him so he doesn't have to go SSJ. Of course Goku is a master martial artist but he has his limits when it comes to being at a disadvantage such as not being able to see his foe. The fact of the matter is Yakon can see, Goku can't. Goku can rely on his other senses but he's still at a disadvantage because he's lacking one sense. If it was the Kaioshin, who isn't a martial artist, it wouldn't matter if he's stronger than Yakon. Yakon would win on his homeworld because Kaioshin wouldn't know where he was coming from or where to attack.

[TheMightyOzaru]

How were the Zenkai's insignificant? something as simple as a 1.5-2x boost is pretty good. Seriously with all the training they do in the ROSAT I wouldnt be suprised if they got like 1 or 2 Zenkais a month. Seriously a 1.5x boost 12 times is massive. Keep in in mind that this is a gradual increase in effectiveness since that is 1.5 to the 12 power. Thats about a 48x increase on top of the Ki increase through training. Why is Cell's Zenkai any different? If Cell gets a massive Zenkai after a near death situation why not anyone else? They would have noted it? Why? Its pretty clear tha Zenkai's are prevelent based on Cell. Like Toriyama said himself power levels were incalcuable past the Freeza saga. Just because you cant notice the Zenkai's doesnt mean they are insignificant. For all you know android 18 could have been greatly stronger than SSJ Vegeta and even a Zenkai didint get Vegeta stronger than 18. You are entitled to your opinion of thinking Zenkai's took a huge hit and that training only yeilds a small result but that isnt a fact.

There wouldn't be any meaning to Piccolo becoming so strong if Zenkai's and power gains were anything close to an increase of 1.5x lets say, for arguments sake, Goku was still at a powerlevel of 3 million and see what happens if we increase his powerlevel with a 1.5x zenkai or even a general gain of 1.5x. It would look something like this.

Base Goku: 3 million
SSJ Goku: 150 million
Now lets say Piccolo(Fused with Kami) is around 200 million.

Now both Goku and Piccolo train and Goku gets an extra 1.5 million(1.5x power gain from Zenkai or general training, whatever you feel comfortable with.) Piccolo also gets an extra 1.5 million from sheer training. Lets compare how they stack up.

Base Goku: 4.5 million
SSJ Goku: 225 million
Piccolo(Fused with Kami): 201.5 million

As you can see from the comparison Goku easily surpasses Piccolo without any real problems. So if such increases were happening why would Vegeta be so shaken up by Piccolo's powerlevel? He would blow by it with a couple of Zenkai's if it were the case that they got a 1.5x boost. The only real reason Cell got such a large Zenkai is because unlike the Saiyan's he can be almost totally destroyed. Saiyan's don't have that level of endurance. They can't blow themselves up and regenerate from one brain cell. Sure they can suffer quite a lot of damage but not to the extent Cell can. His brush with death is really the closest brush with death you could possibly have which is why the Zenkai was so effective for him. Also Toriyama didn't really say power levels were incalculable past the Freeza saga. He merely stated that the powerlevels were becoming so large that there was no point in continuing to calculate them. When your characters are close to the billions I see no reason why he should be keeping track of their powerlevels, its just tedious work on his part.

Oh as for the Cell Jr thing. Piccolo is still getting beat. Piccolo might be able to fight back, barely, but even still he is getting beaten like everyone else. The Cell Jr's are clearly toying with all of them.

I suggest you re-read the chapter because there is no panel showing Piccolo getting beat up, so this is just your opinion. The only panel we do see of Piccolo is after Gohan turns SSJ2 and he is standing up with pretty much minimal damage compared to everyone except Trunks and Vegeta. The Cell Jr's may have been toying with them but I doubt they would leave Piccolo standing, just cause, and I refer you to my previous post. The exact words, from the Japanese text, Cell uses when the Cell Jr's are fighting the Z warriors indicates that someone, or a couple of people, were putting up a fight. Seeing as Piccolo is the only one standing other than Trunks and Vegeta its safe to assume it is him.

Dabura cant sense the energy of a SSJ =/. Why do you think he was so suprised when Goku transformed and by the 3,000 Kiri's? Furthermore Dabura can only sense a lot of energy. He doesnt know 100% how strong the 7 are but he is still more impressed by the 3 and disreguards Piccolo.

I probably worded this badly so this is my fault. What I was trying to say is Dabura can tell a persons potential, so with regards to the Saiyan's they have a high potential because they have the SSJ form. Dabura doesn't know this information only that have a deep hidden power which is probably what he's referring to. Of course he was surprised by how strong they were but that was because he knew they had hidden strength, he just didn't know how much. I have brought this up before but I believe a character, who has a great fighting sense, can judge that a fighter is not near their limit, they just don't know how far from that limit they are. But they can still gauge a difference in strength between two individuals. Taking Cell for example, Karin knew that Cell was stronger than Goku. He just didn't know by how much. Its only until a warrior releases all of their power that the opponent realises that's their maximum strength. Another example is Goku against Freeza, he knew Freeza was still holding back and he knew Freeza was stronger than him but he didn't believe he was still not even using half of his power. Thats why Goku took the gamble and used the Kaioken x20 in a last attempt to finish him before he himself was defeated. However, there is a limit to this. For instance, if somebody is surpressing their power by a great deal it can be hard to judge how if they are stronger than certain people. For example, Goku arriving on Namek. His friends couldn't tell how much stronger he was because he was surpressing his power by a great deal.

As for the Pui Pui gravity thing. Vegeta is used to such physical torture. He trains physically quite often. I suppose I should have worded that statement a little differently. What I meant to say was it doesnt matter how much energy you have, if your physical body isnt used to something its not gonna take it well. For example, Goku's Ki is enough to rip planets apart yet he is hard pressed to move with something as simple as 40 tons. Vegeta being able to train under 300x gravity probably also comes from all those Zenkai's he revieved on Namek. Zenkai's for all we know can increase physical strength and endurance as well as Ki. It would make a lot of sense.

Thats a fair enough assumption but what of characters who don't get Zenkai's? I refer you to Tenshinhan, Yamcha and Chaozu. They don't receive any sort of Zenkai boost yet when they arrived at King Kai's planet they were already able to cope with the gravity much better than Goku could when he arrived. So any character with a high enough powerlevel should be able to withstand X amount of gravity. I think your confused on the matter of energy. Ki in martial arts strengthens everything in the body. So as long as you have a great amount of Ki it strengthens your body. Training your body is one way of building up its strength, but it can also be strengthened through ki. Saiyan's are just lucky that they have natural physical body strength(from evolution to cope with being born on a planet with 10g's) as well as the amplifying their bodies through ki, which they can gain quite a lot of.

Wrong, kind of, Babidi states in Ch 451 pg 9 something along the lines of this, "Yakon kill all of them except for Kaioshin!" This implies that Yakon is capable of taking Kaioshin. I see no reason for Babidi to think his monster superior to a Kai unless he knows how strong his mosnter is which he does, 800 Kiris comes to mind. The Saiyans are mere mortals of an extinct race. Babidi has no reason to believe that the Saiyans are anything special.

Is this line the exact same in the Japanese version of the manga? Because things have been left out before. Such as the line Cell says about Trunks and Vegeta being the only ones to handle themselves when the sentence really just names those to as examples pointing to there being more individuals who can handle themselves(Like Piccolo). And to be honest Babidi instantly sent Yakon to his home world for him to have an advantage. The Kaioshin isn't really a warrior, or martial artist, so I doubt he'd be able to take on an opponent in the dark. Gohan seems to pretty confident that Goku can beat Yakon but after they are teleported to his homeworld and Yakon renders Goku's SSJ form useless as he can just suck in the light energy Gohan says he'll help Goku fight him so he doesn't have to go SSJ. Of course Goku is a master martial artist but he has his limits when it comes to being at a disadvantage such as not being able to see his foe. The fact of the matter is Yakon can see, Goku can't. Goku can rely on his other senses but he's still at a disadvantage because he's lacking one sense. If it was the Kaioshin, who isn't a martial artist, it wouldn't matter if he's stronger than Yakon. Yakon would win on his homeworld because Kaioshin wouldn't know where he was coming from or where to attack.

Can we try to keep away from skyscrapers of text cause I'm not gonna read this. Honestly I would prefer to agree to disagree at this point because Kaboom would prefer this not be discussed on this topic. Plus there is no concrete evidence for either side here it could go either way. Ill stick to Base Saiyans > 100% Frieza and you stick to your Base Saiyans < 100% Frieza. However yes Babidi also states this in the Japanese text I believe. If you want 100% confirmation I would contact Herms. However I did find something interesting:
Chapter: 518 (DBZ 324), P6.5
Goku: “…But someone besides us and Boo might win.”
Satan: “Hahhahhah, now really! There’s no way that could happen, right?”

Chapter: 519 (DBZ 325), P12.2-5
Context: Oob is surprised by Goku’s Bukujutsu
Goku: “Oh, I see. You still don’t even know how to fly, huh? …I guess there ain’t no helping it. You haven’t had no teacher, and you probably never even considered things like that. Sorry I bad-mouthed you before. Please forgive me. I just wanted to know your true ability. You’re exactly the person I thought you were. As amazin’ as I expected. But you don’t know how to use your power. This is the first time you’ve fought like this, right? I've got it! From now on I'll live with you at your house and teach you!”
It would appear that Base Goku at this point is stronger than Good Buu since he was on par with Uub whom he stated might be stronger than Buu and later its confirmed that he is stronger than Buu.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I don't think Zenkais are multipliers. The biggest Zenkai prior to Cell was Goku's - 2,910,000. And that kind of a Zenkai is apparently very rare. So even if the Saiyans had received some minor Zenkais later on in the series, it wouldn't have been of much importance.
When it comes down to Cell, he literally had to regenerate every cell of his body. Naturally he'd get a big boost out of Zenkai.

I find a 33x increase to be less random than +2,910,000.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Well, I never take anything Vegeta says too literally, most of the time he's wrong anyway or just bringing people down condescendingly; so for all we know that little comment could have just him being a dick like usual and not some end all, be all judgement of Gohan's power.

Vegeta isnt always wrong but thats off topic. Goku also states that Gohan was considerably sloppy so thats 2 sources. One of them coming from Gohan's own father. Plus Vegeta also stated that when Gohan was fighting Dabura as just a SSJ. Its pretty clear that he got weaker.

[Mystic Gohan]

Well, I never take anything Vegeta says too literally, most of the time he's wrong anyway or just bringing people down condescendingly; so for all we know that little comment could have just him being a dick like usual and not some end all, be all judgement of Gohan's power.

He's only wrong when his enemy is suppressed and toying with him. Good examples are Freeza being suppressed, Cell giving off a false trail of ki, and Boo just flat out letting Vegeta hit him lol, but as I said, you're interpretation is valid regardless.

[hleV]

I find a 33x increase to be less random than +2,910,000.

33 is just a rounded number, just like 2,910,000. I don't see how can Zenkais be multiplying the Saiyan's power. It's not a concious force... Much more likely that it just adds power, either randomly or depending on the overal received damage.

[Fox666]

I think it is obvious that "zenkais" work like multiplication, not addition. It just multiply the strength by something close to a random number, which doesn't give much of a result than can be predicted.

[Nazi Cola]

Dude I cant take that seriously. There is nothing that suggest base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. PIS is not gonna cut it this time =/.

You don't mean during the Android Saga, right?

[TheMightyOzaru]

Dude I cant take that seriously. There is nothing that suggest base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. PIS is not gonna cut it this time =/.

You don't mean during the Android Saga, right?

Pre Kami fusion, yes.

[TheMightyOzaru]

I find a 33x increase to be less random than +2,910,000.

33 is just a rounded number, just like 2,910,000. I don't see how can Zenkais be multiplying the Saiyan's power. It's not a concious force... Much more likely that it just adds power, either randomly or depending on the overal received damage.

I dont see how 2,910,000 is less random than a 33x increase =/. Much more likely how? There is nothing that suggest that it works like that. Multiplication seems less random.

[Super Saiyan Turlast x4]

Dude I cant take that seriously. There is nothing that suggest base Goku is weaker than Piccolo. PIS is not gonna cut it this time =/.

You don't mean during the Android Saga, right?

Pre Kami fusion, yes.

Urm, so you think Base Goku would beat either of the initial Androids? I think the complete opposite is implied.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Urm, so you think Base Goku would beat either of the initial Androids? I think the complete opposite is implied.

Yes, if he didnt have that heart virus.