Is Master Roshi's moon-busting feat an outlier?

[Draken]

We're saying the laws of physics don't really apply in DBZ, so your last line helps our argument.

Well, I wasn't saying you were wrong...

Whis and Beers definitely have mass and they definitely had to accelerate (unless they're just randomly the only ones in DBZ who start at max speed and stay at max speed), so laws of physics broken dere.

Our laws of physics, perhaps. Of course, even if such laws did exist in the Dragon Ball universe, I could just assume they used their power to warp spacetime in order to fly that fast.

Aka, don't try to apply real world physics in DBZ?

[Bussani]

Well, I don't think a fictional, mystical universe like Dragon Ball should have to follow our laws of physics. That said, I think it's fun to try applying real world logic to it and to see if there are ways to make it work.

[goku the krump dancer]

My theory is that Ki, can be used to do whatever the user wants. It seems with the right amount of ki control even the smallest energy blast can destroy a planet see Kid Boo's "return" and Broly destroying that planet in Movie 8 and vise versa because the same Kamehameha that Roshi used to destroy the Moon was the same one used to put the fire out/destroy Fry Pan Mountain.

[Mjb1985]

Roshi specifies that the one he used to destroy the moon was full power which suggests that the one used to destroy the mountain was not. Roshi even says damn I overdid it, I think he was holding back and just intended to put out the fire but he didn't have the kind of control needed to do so.

[Rocketman]

Ki attacks and techniques are spiritual and side-step science. Same with the actions of gods like Billy.

Or a humanoid having an axe shatter on his face and walking away with only a couple bumps and bruises. Lol. Pretty much nothing in DB would work in the real world.

A species evolved for high gravity would have far denser bones and general physical structure than humans.

Infinite energy does.

Define "infinite".

[Draken]

Ki attacks and techniques are spiritual and side-step science. Same with the actions of gods like Billy.

Or a humanoid having an axe shatter on his face and walking away with only a couple bumps and bruises. Lol. Pretty much nothing in DB would work in the real world.

A species evolved for high gravity would have far denser bones and general physical structure than humans.

Infinite energy does.

Define "infinite".

C17 and C18 stated to have unlimited energy supplies and never running out of ki?

[Hellspawn28]

I always view it as a plot device. Rosh used the same attack before and it only destroy a Mountain. If it was strong enough to destroy the Moon then why didn't destroy the Planet's surface? Not to mention Piccolo's strongest attack against Goku only wipe out a Island and nothing else. I don't think it's ki control since ki control was never introduced during the series at the time.

[Draken]

I always view it as a plot device. Rosh used the same attack before and it only destroy a Mountain. If it was strong enough to destroy the Moon then why didn't destroy the Planet's surface? Not to mention Piccolo's strongest attack against Goku only wipe out a Island and nothing else. I don't think it's ki control since ki control was never introduced during the series at the time.

Well Roshi wasn't going all out, he was trying to restrain himself. He even said afterwards something like "oops, looks like I overdid it there." So it kinda was ki control. For the moon one he said it was "Full Power".

[goku the krump dancer]

I don't think it's ki control since ki control was never introduced during the series at the time.

Maybe but, between the Saiyan and Freeza arcs zenkais are mentioned and Krillin says something along the lines of "Oh well thats why it seemed like Goku suddenly got stronger every time he fought". Personally the only near death power up I see (Pre Z era) is the transition from the 21st Budoaki to the RRA arc because Roshi knew better than to try and challenge the RRA on his own while Goku jumped at the opportunity with no hesitation and decimated most of them with little effort. While during the tournament he and Goku were basically evenly matched.

[Draken]

I don't think it's ki control since ki control was never introduced during the series at the time.

Maybe but, between the Saiyan and Freeza arcs zenkais are mentioned and Krillin says something along the lines of "Oh well thats why it seemed like Goku suddenly got stronger every time he fought". Personally the only near death power up I see (Pre Z era) is the transition from the 21st Budoaki to the RRA arc because Roshi knew better than to try and challenge the RRA on his own while Goku jumped at the opportunity with no hesitation and decimated most of them with little effort. While during the tournament he and Goku were basically evenly matched.

Well to be fair, Goku's prefrontal cortex is probably as undeveloped as a baby and he had no idea what he was doing at the time other than DIE DIE DIE. While Roshi was being an overly cautious dumbass.

[Mjb1985]

Roshi is much stronger than people think as well. Roshi going buff should be akin to Trunks going Grade 3. That's an enormous boost of power and considering Roshi's already overwhelming power in his base power, going maximum buff and using a maximum Kamehameha surely can blow up the moon. Why not?

[Kamiccolo9]

Roshi is much stronger than people think as well. Roshi going buff should be akin to Trunks going Grade 3. That's an enormous boost of power and considering Roshi's already overwhelming power in his base power, going maximum buff and using a maximum Kamehameha surely can blow up the moon. Why not?

Roshi's tough, but I don't see it as being that much of a boost. If it were, he would have tried it against Piccolo before resorting to the suicidal Mafuba.

[Mjb1985]

Just because it's a tremendous boost doesn't mean he can tough a being like Piccolo Daimao. Lets not get crazy here. As well as that doesn't have much to do with anything considering the authors writing style. He doesn't work like that.

And Roshi's Buff state seems great for destroying stationary targets, but if the opponent can get away, then it's pretty pointless.

So I don't see any issues with that. A 4-6x boost for going Buff sounds about right to me.

[Kamiccolo9]

Just because it's a tremendous boost doesn't mean he can tough a being like Piccolo Daimao. Lets not get crazy here. As well as that doesn't have much to do with anything considering the authors writing style. He doesn't work like that.

And Roshi's Buff state seems great for destroying stationary targets, but if the opponent can get away, then it's pretty pointless.

So I don't see any issues with that. A 4-6x boost for going Buff sounds about right to me.

Going with the 139 power level that he is given in Z, a 4x boost would let Roshi solo all of Dragonball. No one would have been able to scratch him. He'd be stronger than both Goku and Piccolo were against Raditz.

[Mjb1985]

I don't think DB and DBZ numbers are exactly intended to match up.

Roshi most likely did not train after the 22nd Budokai. 22nd Budokai Roshi is a legit ant compared to 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan , Kuririn and Yamcha.

Even if Roshi had a ( possible ) 10x boost for his Buff form, he probably wouldn't scratch these three.

[Kamiccolo9]

I don't think DB and DBZ numbers are exactly intended to match up.

Roshi most likely did not train after the 22nd Budokai. 22nd Budokai Roshi is a legit ant compared to 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan , Kuririn and Yamcha.

Even if Roshi had a ( possible ) 10x boost for his Buff form, he probably wouldn't scratch these three.

Why wouldn't they?

Then he'd be even weaker in Z, yet with the multiplier you gave him, he'd be stronger than anyone up to Raditz.

[Mjb1985]

Because of the various contradictory power statements made in Dragonball.

[Kamiccolo9]

Because of the various contradictory power statements made in Dragonball.

Such as?

[Mjb1985]

1) Goku is a bit superior to Tenshinhan who is a bit superior to Roshi at 22nd Budokai.
2) Goku after a beat down from Tambourine and possible Zenkai fights Piccolo Daimao.
3) Piccolo Daimao destroys Gohan with what he states was less than half his power.
4) Piccolo gets his youth restored and his power is of a completely new level than before.
5) Goku matches this new power.
6) At the 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan is superior to that level.

So in terms of numbers at its most basic form.

Tenshinhan ( 23rd) 150
King Piccolo ( Young ) 125
King Piccolo ( 100% ) 100
King Piccolo ( Less than Half ) 45
Goku 22nd Budokai 30
Roshi 22nd Budokai 25

You can play with the gaps here but that's just an example.

[Kamiccolo9]

1) Goku is a bit superior to Tenshinhan who is a bit superior to Roshi at 22nd Budokai.
2) Goku after a beat down from Tambourine and possible Zenkai fights Piccolo Daimao.
3) Piccolo Daimao destroys Gohan with what he states was less than half his power.
4) Piccolo gets his youth restored and his power is of a completely new level than before.
5) Goku matches this new power.
6) At the 23rd Budokai Tenshinhan is superior to that level.

So in terms of numbers at its most basic form.

Tenshinhan ( 23rd) 150
King Piccolo ( Young ) 125
King Piccolo ( 100% ) 100
King Piccolo ( Less than Half ) 45
Goku 22nd Budokai 30
Roshi 22nd Budokai 25

You can play with the gaps here but that's just an example.

Going with those numbers, a 4-6x multiplier would still put Roshi as strong as 100% Old Piccolo at the weakest, and as strong as 23rd Budokai Tien at the strongest. Add on to that whatever increase you give for a Kamehameha, and he would stomp anyone on that list.