Success of a failure... dissecting FUNi's Z dub

[ABED]

In the case of DBZ, because they felt the changes would make the show more financially profitable, which was the main goal of the show to begin with.

It just seems weird to bring over a property only to fundamentally change it. Obviously something about the show caught there eye and made them think it was profitable to begin with.

[90sDBZ]

What people seem to forget is that there had already been 2 failed attempts at releasing Dragonball in the US before Funi released Z. The Ocean dub of DB had kept pretty close to the whole mystical adventure theme of the original despite changing the score and was overall quite close to the original but still didn't get popular so it's very likely that Funi took this into account when they were releasing Z. DB had been massively popular in Japan yet still failed in the US twice already so it was clear to Funi that American kids had a different taste to Japanese kids, likely due to wanting a more action oriented show. This is most likely the reason they felt the need to change things to give a greater emphasis on the action of the show and stay as far away from the failed attempts of the DB release as possible.

And as people have said Dragonball was a "Once upon a time" kind of story but Z is very different in many ways. It was no longer a martial arts adventure but a fast paced fighting sci-fi show with explosions, mass destruction, exaggerated powerups, aliens, cyborgs and time travel. While the appeal in DB was the adventure and comedy, the appeal in Z was mostly the over the top action scenes so I don't see a problem with a vastly different score being used seeing as the show itself had evolved and become drastically different. I've come across plenty of people who either only like DB or Z and that's because of the different appeal they both have to one another. Seeing as how fast paced action is clearly the main element of Z I don't see why it's such a bad thing for Funi to put a greater emphasis on that. And honestly some of the intro songs and endings in the Japanese version feel very corny and out of place in an action show. I mean popcorn monster? WTF was that about? Like many of you have said it became popular because of the action so I don't see why it's so hard to believe that further emphasising the action element was the wrong thing to do. Listening to Rock the Dragon got people pumped and excited every time it came on.

Dragonball failed to get popular on it's own merits on its first 2 attempts at release so there was always a chance that the same thing could happen with Z. I'm not saying it wouldn't have got popular anyway but it's clear from looking at the early attempts at releasing DB that releasing Z without adapting it for American audiences would have been a risk. To be blunt I think it would have got popular but not as popular.

And about Kikuchi in Tree of Might. I understand that sometimes silence can be necessary to generate suspense and eeriness but it just went on for far too long. Like pretty much almost the entire battle including the part with all the Z Fighters. It was necessary near the end but the fact that it had already been silent for so long took away from the impact it could have had if it had been a more sudden silence.

[VegettoEX]

The 1996-1998 dub was plenty popular when it was moved to a completely different time slot.

Nothing changed between its original syndication airings and when it aired on Toonami. It was exactly the same show. Same voices, same music, same script, same edits.

Exact same thing.

It was so popular, in fact, that it made "Season 3" possible.

[90sDBZ]

I wasnt talking about the ocean Z dub. I was talking about the ocean DB dub that came before it and failed to gain popularity.

[ABED]

DB had a VERY crappy timeslot in syndication, and DBZ's popularity on Toonami made it feasable for FUNi to start season 3 as Mike pointed out. There was a significant gap between the end of season 2 and the beginning of season 3. If I recall, it was up in the air as to whether there would be a 3rd season until it aired on Toonami.

it was clear to Funi that American kids had a different taste to Japanese kids, likely due to wanting a more action oriented show.

Compared to American cartoons, even with all the filler, it was still more action packed. Faulconer's score didn't get the tone of the show, and the writing reflected a complete lack of knowledge on the part of the "writers".

And no, DBZ wasn't drastically different from Dragon Ball. It had evolved, but it wasn't unrecognizable. Still the same characters and sense of humor. Okay, less poo on a stick, but plenty of humor. Toonami didn't show the opening songs, nor do I remember them showing the ending songs either.

[Gaffer Tape]

I wasnt talking about the ocean Z dub. I was talking about the ocean DB dub that came before it and failed to gain popularity.

Ocean had nothing to do with the 1995 dub of DB. That was BLT, produced by FUNimation. But a lot of the cast carried over when FUNimation turned to Ocean a year later for DBZ.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Toonami didn't show the opening songs, nor do I remember them showing the ending songs either.

They did show the endings, actually.

[ABED]

Toonami didn't show the opening songs, nor do I remember them showing the ending songs either.

They did show the endings, actually.

Either way, it doesn't matter, the show was over and I don't see anyone being swayed one way or another about whether to watch a show based on the end credits song.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Either way, it doesn't matter, the show was over and I don't see anyone being swayed one way or another about whether to watch a show based on the end credits song.

Agreed.

[Fionordequester]

Compared to American cartoons, even with all the filler, it was still more action packed.

... Are you absolutely positive about that? I mean I won't tell you that you're wrong but...I cannot for the life of me, based on what western cartoons I've watched, possibly reconcile this statement with what I've seen. And maybe I haven't watched enough western cartoons, but heck if I can remember any show that had the very first episode revolve entirely around a 4 year old getting into mischief in the woods...or an episode revolving around one of the sidekicks trying to get a jewel for his girlfriend...or one where they just kind of...talk. Heck, remember that one episode in the Frieza fight, where the ENTIRE EPISODE was a series of flashbacks from previous episodes?

Yeah, out of all the shows I've seen...

Totally Spies! ( )
Code Lyoko
Teen Titans
Justice League/Justice League Unlimited
Superman
Ben 10
The Batman (the 2nd animated series that was serious in tone)
Highlander: The Animated Series
Power Rangers (Ok, not technically a cartoon, but it may as well be)
Winx Club (... )
Transformers Energon (or whatever the heck the second word there was. It definitely wasn't the first animated series)
That one cartoon involving five monkeys fighting "The Skeleton King".
That one cartoon that involved people racing with...dinosaur vehicles or something (sorry I can't be more specific)
Jet X (That one with a villain called "Bedlam")
Oban Star Racers
Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (the one made by 4Kids)
Avatar: The Last Airbender

...I certainly can't remember one that would pull out the dragshoots to anywhere close to the extent that Dragon Ball Z would. The only one that even somewhat approached that track record was Avatar, and even that only had like three episodes of non-action (the very first episode, that one terrible recap by the Fire Nation of the adventures of Aang and Co., and that one fanservice episode revolving entirely around "LOOK AT HOW HOT OUR FEMALES LOOK IN BIKINI'S!!").

[Kamiccolo9]

Compared to American cartoons, even with all the filler, it was still more action packed.

... Are you absolutely positive about that? I mean I won't tell you that you're wrong but...I cannot for the life of me, based on what western cartoons I've watched, possibly reconcile this statement with what I've seen. And maybe I haven't watched enough western cartoons, but heck if I can remember any show that had the very first episode revolve entirely around a 4 year old getting into mischief in the woods...or an episode revolving around one of the sidekicks trying to get a jewel for his girlfriend...or one where they just kind of...talk. Heck, remember that one episode in the Freeza fight, where the ENTIRE EPISODE was a series of flashbacks from previous episodes?

If I recall correctly, they changed that when they first released the show in the U.S. They cut out the Gohan getting lost in the woods part.

[ABED]

I was talking about at the time in the late 90s, and I still stand by that statement.

Gohan didn't have a romp in the woods either. He chased after a mountain lion, and fell from a waterfall, Raditz killed a guy in the first few minutes, etc. It's not uneventful as far as first episodes go, and has been pointed out, the first dub DBZ episode cut out a lot of material, ironically making it closer to the manga.

[penguintruth]

And honestly some of the intro songs and endings in the Japanese version feel very corny and out of place in an action show. I mean popcorn monster? WTF was that about? Like many of you have said it became popular because of the action so I don't see why it's so hard to believe that further emphasising the action element was the wrong thing to do. Listening to Rock the Dragon got people pumped and excited every time it came on.

You know, frankly, I don't care what you personally find exciting or fitting. The show is the show. The songs are the songs. The dialogue is the dialogue.

"But the music was outdated!" I don't care. It's the music that belongs with the show. I don't care if the music is a bunch of bagpipes and fart noises, you don't replace it. It's the soundtrack of that show. You don't have to like it, but you do have to hear it if you're watching the show.

If you change it as radically as they did you get a show that isn't DBZ. I don't care what the reasoning is for the changes, if you have to change the show to sell it, don't sell it. Defacing it with a bunch of unrelated music and dialogue is frankly immoral. Period.

And fine, maybe if Funimation didn't do it, somebody else would have. Maybe even worse. I don't care. They're the ones who did it, not some fictional hypothetical company, Funimation.

(Also, Zenkai Powaa is a song from little Gohan's perspective.)

[90sDBZ]

And honestly some of the intro songs and endings in the Japanese version feel very corny and out of place in an action show. I mean popcorn monster? WTF was that about? Like many of you have said it became popular because of the action so I don't see why it's so hard to believe that further emphasising the action element was the wrong thing to do. Listening to Rock the Dragon got people pumped and excited every time it came on.

You know, frankly, I don't care what you personally find exciting or fitting. The show is the show. The songs are the songs. The dialogue is the dialogue.

"But the music was outdated!" I don't care. It's the music that belongs with the show. I don't care if the music is a bunch of bagpipes and fart noises, you don't replace it. It's the soundtrack of that show. You don't have to like it, but you do have to hear it if you're watching the show.

If you change it as radically as they did you get a show that isn't DBZ. I don't care what the reasoning is for the changes, if you have to change the show to sell it, don't sell it. Defacing it with a bunch of unrelated music and dialogue is frankly immoral. Period.

And fine, maybe if Funimation didn't do it, somebody else would have. Maybe even worse. I don't care. They're the ones who did it, not some fictional hypothetical company, Funimation.

(Also, Zenkai Powaa is a song from little Gohan's perspective.)

Well good because I don't care about your moral code about the dubbing of anime. I mean it's not like Toriyama wrote the manga with the Kikuchi score in mind. It's not like he even had some perfect vision for how the story should play out. He improvised most of the way. A lot of the animation done by Toei was nothing like Toriyama's artwork and was even inconsistent with itself but you don't hear people saying that was morally wrong. And even Toei themselves felt the need to change the score when they made Kai because even they believed the Kikuchi score to be dated. You seem determined to stick to this attitude of "It is what it is and should never be changed" just for the sake of it. Toei allowed Funi to change it and there is nothing morally wrong with changing a show so a new audience can enjoy it more. If you're going to have that attitude then you could say Toei was morally wrong for adding in filler and plotholes to the story. The existence of the dub never has and never will hurt the Japanese version so I fail to see how it's morally wrong. Funi had bigger things to think about than the moral code of a minority. They had to realistically think about how they could increase the shows chances of success.

Toonami didn't show the opening songs, nor do I remember them showing the ending songs either.

Well I can't speak for Toonami US but Toonami UK almost always showed the intros and endings. But I can be pretty sure Toonami US showed them at least during its original run. Almost every fan knows about Rock the Dragon and the Rock the Dragon boxset obviously includes the intros and endings and has also been confirmed to have all footage taken from Toonami. I mean the simple fact that they're advertising it as "The original Toonami Broadcast version" rather than "The original syndication version" and it's called Rock the Dragon Edition pretty much confirms they showed the intros. Plus lots of promos featured the song which also helped build up the hype.

[penguintruth]

Funimation did not produce DBZ. They didn't write it. They didn't animate it. IT IS NOT THEIR SHOW. THEY DIDN'T MAKE IT. THEY'RE LUCKY SOMEBODY LET THEM SELL IT FOR A PROFIT.

Even taking Toriyama out of the picture, Toei's DBZ TV show was intended to be a certain way and Funimation changed it excessively and unnecessarily.

If Funimation wants to make their own TV show, they should open an animation studio and get to work. Otherwise, leave shows the way they're intended by making accurate English versions and marketing the shows for what they really are instead of what they want them to be.

If it doesn't sell? Then move onto the next one. If it's risky? Too bad, get out of the business if you have a problem.

The leads are weak? You're weak! You think they came here to get out of the rain? They want you to take their money! Are you ready to take it? Are you man enough to take it? You know what it takes to sell anime? It takes brass (dragon) balls to sell anime! Good father? Go home, play with your kid! Get them to sign on the line that is dotted! ALWAYS BE CLOSING!

Uh... sorry. Glengarry Glenn Ross.

[90sDBZ]

Funimation did not produce DBZ. They didn't write it. They didn't animate it.

Even taking Toriyama out of the picture, Toei's DBZ TV show was intended to be a certain way and Funimation changed it excessively and unnecessarily.

If Funimation wants to make their own TV show, they should open an animation studio and get to work. Otherwise, leave shows the way they're intended by making accurate English versions and marketing the shows for what they really are instead of what they want them to be.

If it doesn't sell? Then move onto the next one. If it's risky? Too bad, get out of the business if you have a problem.

Well Toei didn't write the story either yet they felt the need to make dumb changes like making Goku's escape from Namek seem impossible and later contradict continuity completely by having him spot the Ginyu pod while still on the ship just for the sake of adding suspense. Or screwing with power levels so that Goku was almost always the strongest. They also geared the show in a way that it would sell toys and make them money. Now tell me how any of that is more morally right than what Funi did.

[penguintruth]

Toei made the show. Funimation didn't draw line one.

And by the way, I have plenty of issues with what Toei did with the show at times. But at least THEY MADE IT. Funimation is a leech, they should mind their manners.

[jpdbzrulz4sure]

Well I can't speak for Toonami US but Toonami UK almost always showed the intros and endings. But I can be pretty sure Toonami US showed them at least during its original run. Almost every fan knows about Rock the Dragon and the Rock the Dragon boxset obviously includes the intros and endings and has also been confirmed to have all footage taken from Toonami. I mean the simple fact that they're advertising it as "The original Toonami Broadcast version" rather than "The original syndication version" and it's called Rock the Dragon Edition pretty much confirms they showed the intros. Plus lots of promos featured the song which also helped build up the hype.

As someone who actually watched DBZ on Toonami during its original US run, I can confirm 100% that the openings were always skipped over, with the exception of the movies and specials, which were rarely shown anyway.

Maybe they were shown on Toonami UK as you say, but that wasn't the case in the US.

[ABED]

Toei made the show. Funimation didn't draw line one.

And by the way, I have plenty of issues with what Toei did with the show at times. But at least THEY MADE IT. Funimation is a leech, they should mind their manners.

Are you claiming that dubbing companies are leeches by nature, or just ones that do it badly?

[Gaffer Tape]

Yeah, the first time I ever saw the "lyrical" version of Rock the Dragon was when they aired the movies in early 1999.