How strong is Grey Buu?

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:08 pm

Axiom wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I've read the manga and watched the show. Nothing states that Gray Buu cannot be Pure Buu's equal or even superior.

Whatever man, I'm done. You believe what you want.

I will

.

Axiom · Post by **Axiom** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:10 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote: I could say the same about people who believe that Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.
Fat Buu gets stronger when he gets angry, and was the angriest he'd ever been right before he split. Fat Buu is also made of the same parts as Super Buu. So it makes sense to assume that Fat Buu, at his maximum power, rivaled Super Buu, who is far stronger than Pure Buu. Assuming that Grey Buu got 60% of Fat Buu's full power, which is reasonable, he would easily be stronger than Pure Buu.
Goku and Vegeta are familiar with how powerful Fat Buu was, not how powerful he ended up becoming.

Except this doesn't make any sense. Vegeta saw Buu split into two beings, how would he NOT know? And where is it said that Fat Buu powered up so much?
You need to separate what you want to happen and what you believe, with what is really going on. I actually cannot believe we are having this conversation.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:14 pm

Axiom wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:He did much better against Fat Buu. He's superior in the only direct way we have to compare them.
Wait, what? Fat Buu is stated to be weaker that SSJ3 Goku - who could not beat KidBuu. '
What about Vegeta getting curb stomped by Kidbuu, though he put up a better fight against Grey Buu?
What about Kid Buu almost killing Fat Buu - yes, killing.
What about Vegeta KNOWING about Grey Buu's existence, pointing out that he would be weaker than Super Buu.
What about fusion being recommend as a means to beating Kid Buu?

You literally have to ignore everything else in the story and focus on one gag scene to make your theory work. It doesn't.

What are you talking about? Vegeta never fought Gray Buu, and was planning on turning Super Buu back into Fat Buu- "The very first Buu of all," as Goku said.
Vegeta actually died against Fat Buu. What's your point?
What's wrong with Gray Buu being weaker than Super Buu? He could still be stronger than Pure buu.
Fusion was also immediately shot down.

Axiom wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote: I could say the same about people who believe that Goku is stronger than Gohan and Gotenks.
Fat Buu gets stronger when he gets angry, and was the angriest he'd ever been right before he split. Fat Buu is also made of the same parts as Super Buu. So it makes sense to assume that Fat Buu, at his maximum power, rivaled Super Buu, who is far stronger than Pure Buu. Assuming that Grey Buu got 60% of Fat Buu's full power, which is reasonable, he would easily be stronger than Pure Buu.
Goku and Vegeta are familiar with how powerful Fat Buu was, not how powerful he ended up becoming.
Except this doesn't make any sense. Vegeta saw Buu split into two beings, how would he NOT know? And where is it said that Fat Buu powered up so much?
You need to separate what you want to happen and what you believe, with what is really going on. I actually cannot believe we are having this conversation.

Fat Buu always powers up when he's angry. It's stated numerous times. You would think after the first 3, Toryama wouldn't have to spell it out anymore.
Who says that Vegeta was sensing them? He was dead. In another dimension, as it were. He wouldn't have a clue how strong they were.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:17 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I think Gray Buu is equal to Pure Buu in strength. He is essentially the manifestation of evil within Majin Buu that was suppressed by the Kaioshin influence within Majin Buu. Gray Buu is, in a sense, Pure Buu.

Innocent Boo is weaker than Pure Boo, and Good Boo's BP + Pure Evil Boo's BP = Innocent Boo's BP (with Good Boo < Pure Evil Boo) is stated in the manga. So, Pure Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:20 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I think Gray Buu is equal to Pure Buu in strength. He is essentially the manifestation of evil within Majin Buu that was suppressed by the Kaioshin influence within Majin Buu. Gray Buu is, in a sense, Pure Buu.
Innocent Boo is weaker than Pure Boo, and Good Boo's BP + Pure Evil Boo's BP = Innocent Boo's BP (with Good Boo < Pure Evil Boo) is stated in the manga. So, Pure Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo.

Innocent Buu powered up and released the evil within him.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:31 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:Innocent Buu powered up and released the evil within him.

What?!

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:32 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Innocent Buu powered up and released the evil within him.
What?!

What do you mean what? Innocent Buu powered up before he split.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:33 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:Innocent Buu powered up and released the evil within him.
What?!
What do you mean what? Innocent Buu powered up before he split.

What are you talking about? Innocent Boo is stated to be weaker than Pure Boo. And since when did Innocent Boo use the "evil inside him"?

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:35 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: What are you talking about? Innocent Boo is stated to be weaker than Pure Boo. And since when did Innocent Boo use the "evil inside him"?

It said that Pure Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin lowered his power. But we also see repeatedly that Fat Buu can access some of that power when he's angry.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:39 pm

Kamiccolo9 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: What are you talking about? Innocent Boo is stated to be weaker than Pure Boo. And since when did Innocent Boo use the "evil inside him"?
It said that Pure Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin lowered his power. But we also see repeatedly that Fat Buu can access some of that power when he's angry.

Examples? Quotes that indicate this?

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:39 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:What are you talking about? Innocent Boo is stated to be weaker than Pure Boo. And since when did Innocent Boo use the "evil inside him"?

I... how... what!? Pure Evil Buu is the manifestation of evil within Buu's body. Innocent Buu naturally is weaker. He, however, powered up when he released the evil within him because that evil was suppressed by the influence of the Kaioshins. When he got angry, that side was no longer suppressed and it was released.

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:44 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Kamiccolo9 wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: What are you talking about? Innocent Boo is stated to be weaker than Pure Boo. And since when did Innocent Boo use the "evil inside him"?
It said that Pure Buu absorbing Dai Kaioshin lowered his power. But we also see repeatedly that Fat Buu can access some of that power when he's angry.
Examples? Quotes that indicate this?

Buu gets mad when Dabura insults him, and his power spikes. He does this once when Vegeta insults him, and again when Vegeta hurts him. He never powers up against Goku, because Goku doesn't make him mad. Every time we see Fat Buu get mad, we see him get stronger. Why would it be any different after Mr. Satan gets shot? He's made of the same components as Super Buu, so it makes sense that his power spiking when he gets angry is Dai Kaioshin's influence being lessened, allowing him to draw on the Pure Buu and South Kaioshin ki.
It also explains Mr. Buu's performance against Pure Buu. If Mr. Buu was pathetically weak, Pure Buu would have crushed him, yet he is able to put up somewhat of a fight, something that Initial Fat Buu, who was in between Majin Vegeta and SSJ3 Goku in their fights, could not have done.

Vice · Post by **Vice** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 4:52 pm

TheMightyOzaru wrote:I've read the manga and watched the show. Nothing states that Gray Buu cannot be Pure Buu's equal or even superior.

Except, you know, common sense.

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:17 pm

All I see is a suppressed Boo getting angry & going full power, with his full power still below Pure Boo, S. Kaioshin Boo, and Evil Boo. Goku had sensed Innocent Boo's full power, and still believed that he could have defeated him. However, he didn't think he had a chance to survive against Evil & S. Kaioshin Boo, but he believed he would be able to kill Pure Boo only with a full power blast. I don't understand where the whole "his evil power was unsealed through his anger" came from.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:23 pm

Vice wrote:
TheMightyOzaru wrote:I've read the manga and watched the show. Nothing states that Gray Buu cannot be Pure Buu's equal or even superior.
Except, you know, common sense.

Really? You couldn't elicit a better response? The way I see it is Pure Evil Buu is the manifestation of the evil within Buu that was repressed by the Kaioshin influence. Naturally I would think Pure Evil Buu is Pure Buu's equal.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:All I see is a suppressed Boo getting angry & going full power, with his full power still below Pure Boo, S. Kaioshin Boo, and Evil Boo. Goku had sensed Innocent Boo's full power, and still believed that he could have defeated him. However, he didn't think he had a chance to survive against Evil & S. Kaioshin Boo, but he believed he would be able to kill Pure Boo only with a full power blast. I don't understand where the whole "his evil power was unsealed through his anger" came from.

It's straight up stated:
Chapter: 485 (DBZ 291), P2.3
Narrator: “Due to his strong anger, the evil portion that Majin Boo had kept inside himself greatly swelled up and became another Majin Boo, who came flying out…In other words, he was divided into a pure evil Majin Boo and an innocent Majin Boo…”

DBZGTKOSDH · Post by **DBZGTKOSDH** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:26 pm

Innocent Boo is stated to be weaker than Pure Boo, and Pure Evil Boo is stated to be weaker than Innocent Boo. So, Pure Evil Boo is weaker than Pure Boo.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:27 pm

I refer you to the post above. Greatly swelled implies a power up. Where is it stated that Pure Evil Buu is weaker than the Innocent Majin Buu?

mAcChaos · Post by **mAcChaos** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:29 pm

I think power wise, Fat Buu was the same as Super Buu.

The main difference is that Fat Buu's Kaioshin influence made him lazier and more easy going, so he was not revved up as high most of the time except when angry.

Super Buu on the other hand, is always angry.

That's his secret.

TheMightyOzaru · Post by **TheMightyOzaru** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:30 pm

Except Evil Buu isn't always angry....

Kamiccolo9 · Post by **Kamiccolo9** » Sat Jul 13, 2013 5:30 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:All I see is a suppressed Boo getting angry & going full power, with his full power still below Pure Boo, S. Kaioshin Boo, and Evil Boo. Goku had sensed Innocent Boo's full power, and still believed that he could have defeated him. However, he didn't think he had a chance to survive against Evil & S. Kaioshin Boo, but he believed he would be able to kill Pure Boo only with a full power blast. I don't understand where the whole "his evil power was unsealed through his anger" came from.

Who says Goku sensed Buu's full power? He sensed the power that was used against him.
Like I said, Fat Buu and Super Buu are made of the same "parts." Theoretically, their maximum potential should be the same, but the Dai Kaioshin influence limits Fat Buu's power because he is pure good. My theory is that when Buu is angry, his anger allows him to overcome the limitation imposed by Dai Kaioshin's influence.

It also explains Mr. Buu's performance against Pure Buu. Gray Buu was said to gain the majority of Fat Buu's power, so a 40/60 split seems reasonable. Less than half of the Fat Buu that fought Goku would have been instantly crushed, or brutalized by Pure Buu, like Vegeta was. Yet Mr. Buu was able to briefly fight with Pure Buu, something he wouldn't be able to do if he was half the strength of the Fat Buu that Goku fought.
However, if you assume that Fat Buu had powered up before he split, like every other time he got angry, then his maximum strength would be equal to Super Buu's. So Mr. Buu would be a minority of a power equal to Super Buu, who is much stronger than Pure Buu. So Mr. Buu would be somewhat weaker than Pure Buu, while Gray Buu would be stronger, which is also supported by the two fights. Mr. Buu put up a fight against Pure Buu, while he was dominated by Gray Buu.

Kanzenshuu

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