Dragon Ball and the Bechdel test.

[superfunk]

Ok, I'll bite. Feminism as a political and philosophical current has a lot of branches, waves and whatnot, but what it essentially looks for is to make sure that women have the same rights and are treated equally compared to men. For example, even in this day and time women earn less than men even if they do the same job and are equally qualified. In this example feminism strives for making sure that a woman isn't underpayed in account of her gender, like it's been documented to happen, even in the western world.

I think some of you guys are going way overboard with your interpretations of radical feminism and man-hating women as proper feminism. Most of us are pretty collected and harmless, and we don't hate men at all, we just wish that things weren't so screwed up in our end in certain matters, like sexual violence, culturally sanctioned victim blaming etc.

It doesn't mean that being a man is easy peasy and there aren't struggles with that as well, sure there are, everything is complicated in life. But feminism's goal isn't to shut up the men, it's just to point out that things could be better than they are now for half of the human population (that would be the women) if we could stop being treated differently (and often unfairly, like when rape victims are blamed because they wore a mini skirt or went out at night etc) because of our gender.

I wouldn't go as far as to say feminism is politically correct misandry, but today it probably does more harm than good. Femnist ideals suffer from an apex fallacy, as they will compare all women to the top 10% of men. In a real sense the average mans life is harder than the average women's. Aside from earning slightly less than men at the same job, ( wich is sometimes warrented, for example part of the physical test to be a police officer is to do pullups, a man has to do ten, a women has to do only one) women have more rights and are far more protected by the law and society, the world is still very much into the culture of transferring a man's assets to a women. Trust me feminists will cry when they get what they think they want.

[KentalSSJ6]

So...anyone wanna sum up the results of this thread for me and bring me up to speed?

[Hades]

So...anyone wanna sum up the results of this thread for me and bring me up to speed?

Basically, First World Problems, or more specifically, what white middle class women living in the first world think are problems on par with getting shot at in the Ukraine.

[KentalSSJ6]

So...anyone wanna sum up the results of this thread for me and bring me up to speed?

Basically, First World Problems, or more specifically, what white middle class women living in the first world think are problems on par with getting shot at in the Ukraine.

So, pretty much nothing Dragonball related?

[Hades]

So...anyone wanna sum up the results of this thread for me and bring me up to speed?

Basically, First World Problems, or more specifically, what white middle class women living in the first world think are problems on par with getting shot at in the Ukraine.

So, pretty much nothing Dragonball related?

Exactly.

[Rocketman]

women have more rights and are far more protected by the law and society

What fucking planet do you live on.

I'm sorry, but I just can't get over the fact that you seem to be seriously saying that a work of fiction and whether or not it has two female characters talking, about men or anything else, actually has a real world effect. I've sure never seen anyone rushing around shushing women in my life.

Fiction informs and influences the real world. Preventing women from having a voice in the media has a bad effect on opinions of women.

I would also again point to how easily this can be turned to the lack of male characters that don't fall into one stereotype or another, but you're clearly only concerned with one side of the sexism card.

Well yes, because NOT TALKING AT ALL is a slightly bigger deal than "wrong type of talking".

[garnetjester]

Hey! I'm not white and am from a third world country But to stay on topic, I think Pan and Videl had a few conversations in GT that weren't about guys. I'm pretty sure Bulma and Lunch did too. I need to recheck the manga and actually count all the female-female interactions. It could be an interesting little project

also @superfunk

Spoiler:

I wouldn't go as far as to say feminism is politically correct misandry, but today it probably does more harm than good. Femnist ideals suffer from an apex fallacy, as they will compare all women to the top 10% of men. In a real sense the average mans life is harder than the average women's. Aside from earning slightly less than men at the same job, ( wich is sometimes warrented, for example part of the physical test to be a police officer is to do pullups, a man has to do ten, a women has to do only one) women have more rights and are far more protected by the law and society, the world is still very much into the culture of transferring a man's assets to a women. Trust me feminists will cry when they get what they think they want

I disagree. My mother is a neonatologist and she earns less than her male peers even though she does exactly the same as them and has studied just as much if not more. The police officer example doesn't apply to most jobs even, because most of them don't require pure physical strength to be accomplished.

And I disagree about women having more rights than men too, could you please point out at least 5 rights women have that men don't? Because I honestly can't think of one. And again, the whole point is that we have EQUAL opportunities, not more. In your police officer example, in my view of things, if you need to do 10 pullups to qualify for the job then you should do it, regardless of your gender. If you can't then that's not the job for you. Being treated in a condescending way because we're "the weak sex" is annoying, especially because people confuse those culturally ingrained acts as what feminism is after, and it's not. I don't want to be given special treatment, I want to be treated in the same way as long as its possible.

About society protecting women, are you sure about that? To point out an example, women are 10 times more likely to be victims of sexual violence than men, and guess what will happen to them afterwards? They'll be blamed for it because "they shouldn't have left the house on their own" or "they shouldn't have worn a mini skirt" or "they shouldn't have taken a drink (or two, or ten, whatever, the point stands)".

Again, I'm not trying to say that all women do in this world is suffer because of the MENZ, I'm just trying to point out that I think that there are still some things that are unfair for women and that we as a society should work to set them straight because we would be able to function better in a fairer and happier society.

[rereboy]

women have more rights and are far more protected by the law and society

What fucking planet do you live on.

In some situations they do. Admitting that won't make the world suddenly not male-centric, don't worry.

[Rocketman]

women have more rights and are far more protected by the law and society

What fucking planet do you live on.

In some situations they do. Admitting that won't make the world suddenly not male-centric, don't worry.

Give me examples.

[Freeza Soldier #156]

I'm not even going to take part in the debates going on here, it's crazy. I will say that this thread has seriously derailed and hasn't been on topic in some time.

As for the topic, I remember several instances where Bulma and Lunch had conversations with each other that did not involve any mention of a man.

[Kamiccolo9]

So...anyone wanna sum up the results of this thread for me and bring me up to speed?

Basically, First World Problems, or more specifically, what white middle class women living in the first world think are problems on par with getting shot at in the Ukraine.

Just because one group's problem is less "bad" than another group's does not mean that they don't have a right to complain and attempt to rectify the situation, or that the "lesser" situation should wait until the "worse" situation is resolved to be fixed.

[FrogTrigger]

There is no one side of the sexism card in our society and I don't think that's what is being said. Getting defensive kinds dampens discussion

And garnetjester yea Lunch prob counts but I almost forgot about her lol

She had quite a few convos w bulma

18 had her moments too outside of kill goku I think

[rereboy]

Give me examples.

Custody of the kids? Good luck, dad.

Woman hits guy. Everybody yamns. Guy hits woman with same force. All hell breaks loose.

Men suffering sexual abuse at the hands of a woman? Good luck going to the police with that. The guy will be lucky if they don't laugh at him. But if he was a woman...

Like I said, the world is male-centric. But obviously there are some situations where women have advantages. The gender inequality doesn't always work in men's favor.

[Gaffer Tape]

Give me examples.

If you insist:

Women do not have to register for Selective Service
In domestic assault cases, men are automatically seen as the aggressors until proven otherwise, even in cases of self-defense
Women are almost guaranteed to get custody of children in divorce settlements unless there are extenuating circumstances
Businesses (bars or clubs, for example) often provide goods and services at a discounted or free price for women
Men are expected by society to pay for dates
Men are almost never taken seriously for sexual abuse claims

So both de facto and de jure... women get some pretty unfair perks.

Sadly, I'm expecting you to counter every one of my examples with reasons as to why women still have it worse. But, again, I'm not trying to compete with you. Women are given some advantages. Men are given some advantages. Pointing out the advantages women have do not negate the problems they have.

EDIT: And rereboy beat me to the punch!

Just because one group's problem is less "bad" than another group's does not mean that they don't have a right to complain and attempt to rectify the situation, or that the "lesser" situation should wait until the "worse" situation is resolved to be fixed.

Thank you, Kamiccolo. That's what I'm saying. It doesn't matter if it's trivializing "women's" problems or trivializing "men's" problems. It's still counterproductive to civil discourse, problem-solving, and positively affecting society and the world.

[Rocketman]

Women do not have to register for Selective Service

Because women are seen as unfit for combat.

In domestic assault cases, men are automatically seen as the aggressors, even in cases of self-defense
Men are almost never taken seriously for sexual abuse claims

Because women are seen as physically inferior and incapable of actually threatening men.

Women are almost guaranteed to get custody of children in divorce settlements unless there are extenuating circumstances

Because men in general don't want or ask for it: http://www.divorcepeers.com/stats18.htm

80% of custody decisions are made between the two people getting divorced without any input from the legal system.

Businesses (bars or clubs, for example) often provide goods and services at a discounted or free price for women

Because they're banking on having lots of "hot slutty drunk chicks" to lure in men.

Men are expected by society to pay for dates

Because women are assumed to have no financial standing. Our modern dating mores are heldover from the days when a man had to prove his material worth and capability to support a family all on his own because women were expected to do nothing put wash clothes and have babbies.

Pointing out the advantages women have do not negate the problems they have.

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

[Zephyr]

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

Sure, but that doesn't make them not advantageous.

[superfunk]

garnetjester: I will PM you a reply to your argument, this thread has derailed far enough.

[rereboy]

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

Isn't that saying that in the current genre inequality, in some situations, women have the advantage? Which is what I was saying? As you might have noticed I didn't deny that its a male-centric world, I agreed with that. What I said was that in some situations they have the advantage since the existing gender inequality doesn't always work in men's favor. Nothing you said goes agaisnt what I said.

If perfect gender equality existed, the disadvantages women have would disappear but also would the advantages. In conclusion, in the current gender inequality, women have many disadvantages but also at least some advantages. Admitting that won't make the world more or less male-centric.

(And make no mistake, a lot of women like these advantages and will make the best use of it without caring in the least if they are born out of the idea that they are "inferior and need to be coddled" or not.)

[superfunk]

Also as zephyr said, everything rocketman has said is why those advantages are in place. But they are still in place and women still definitely benefit from them. As i said before feminists will cry when they get what they think they want, true equality would be horrible for women.

[Gaffer Tape]

Most, damn near all, of those "advantages" are rooted in the idea that women are inferior and need to be coddled.

Sure, but that doesn't make them not advantageous.

Exactly. That's why I keep saying you can't just dismiss one group's concerns as being invalid over another's, and that we need an all-inclusive push for equality, not just a group looking out for its own interests: because the same sexist attitudes negatively affect EVERYONE at the same time. Of course most of those are rooted in antiquated and misogynistic ways of thinking, but you don't exactly see women bending over backwards to fight for the right to be forced to register for the draft because, funnily enough, most people don't like the idea of potentially being bound into combat.