Discussion, generally of an in-universe nature, regarding any aspect of the franchise (including movies, spin-offs, etc.) such as: techniques, character relationships, internal back-history, its universe, and more.
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Hitiro
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by Hitiro » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:03 pm
DannyDBZfanforever wrote:Can we assume that the transformation SSJ increases in proportion to the fusion and the base form of a simple saiyan in the same way?
Base Goku x 50 = SSJ Goku
Base Gotenks x 50 = SSJ Gotenks????
In the movie Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!!, I do not see much difference between Base Gotenks and SSJ Goku. Aka takes a few blows from Gotenks, but Aka is not defeated by Gotenks. Rather, SSJ Goku stops the attack of Aka with a Kamehameha and Goku defeats Aka with a single punch.
Plus:
Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”
This is from Herms.
look at this "We’re almost there!"This little phrase shows that the difference may not be so big (between SSJ 3 Goku and SSJ 2 Vegeta Vs Evil Majin Buu)
I think you are misinterpreting this comment, that phrase is basically saying we've almost got him back to the Boo we "can" fight. That would be Fat Boo. If you read Goku's next line he says they are simply no match for his strength and they would definitely be done in. If the difference between Evil Boo and SSJ3 Goku wasn'
t that big then I doubt he would have worded it like that.
Also, Goku and Piccolo believed SSJ Gotenks would be able to defeat Fat Boo without any problems. But Gotenks could only be on par with Evil Boo while as a SSJ3.
Fat Boo < SSJ3 Goku < SSJ Gotenks(Pre-RoSaT) < Evil Boo <= SSJ3 Gotenks
The difference between Fat Boo and Evil Boo is at most, whatever SSJ3 multiplier Gotenks gets. As far as the guidebook says, and is never contradicted, SSJ3 is 8x stronger than SSJ. That is a huge gap. And I'm ignoring the fact that Gotenks RoSaT training made him much much stronger.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Fri Apr 18, 2014 7:27 pm
DannyDBZfanforever wrote:I hope one day,Shueisha, tell us how big is the difference.
Well, from guidebooks, we have the SS multipliers (SS = base x50, SS2 = SS x 2, SS3 = SS2 x4), the generic Fusion multiplier (many dozens of times than the individual, Fusion > SS), and we know that the kids are less than x2 weaker than the adults from their feats in the manga. So, SS3 Gotenks should be at least a few dozens of times stronger than SS3 Goku. Same for U. Gohan & Evil Boo, since there is a less than x2 difference between these two and SS3 Gotenks
(because of Evil Boo + SS3 Gotenks = Gotenks Boo > U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Boo).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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OWmyDragonBallz
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by OWmyDragonBallz » Sat Apr 19, 2014 7:43 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:DannyDBZfanforever wrote:I hope one day,Shueisha, tell us how big is the difference.
Well, from guidebooks, we have the SS multipliers (SS = base x50, SS2 = SS x 2, SS3 = SS2 x4), the generic Fusion multiplier (many dozens of times than the individual, Fusion > SS), and we know that the kids are less than x2 weaker than the adults from their feats in the manga. So, SS3 Gotenks should be at least a few dozens of times stronger than SS3 Goku. Same for U. Gohan & Evil Boo, since there is a less than x2 difference between these two and SS3 Gotenks
(because of Evil Boo + SS3 Gotenks = Gotenks Boo > U. Gohan > SS3 Gotenks > Evil Boo).
SSJ Gotenks is stated to be in the same power range as SSJ3 Goku with Gotenks coming out stronger. This is pre rosat. Depending on if you believe that SSJ Gotenks post rosat got several times stronger in only a week or two is up to you to decide. But because SSJ Gotenks is stronger than SSJ3 Goku, I have SSJ3 Gotenks at least 10X stronger than SSJ3 Goku. It seems like a fair place to put his power.
But just know that if you think that Post rosat Base Gotenks > Pre rosat SSJ Gotenks. Then Base Goku > Freeza isn't too farfetched afterall.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Apr 20, 2014 8:47 am
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:SSJ Gotenks is stated to be in the same power range as SSJ3 Goku with Gotenks coming out stronger.
When was that stated? All we know is that SS Gotenks was supposed to be much stronger than Fat Boo, and stronger than even Goku himself.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Depending on if you believe that SSJ Gotenks post rosat got several times stronger in only a week or two is up to you to decide.
It's a gag for me, so he didn't even get 2 times stronger IMO.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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OWmyDragonBallz
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by OWmyDragonBallz » Sun Apr 20, 2014 3:21 pm
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:OWmyDragonBallz wrote:SSJ Gotenks is stated to be in the same power range as SSJ3 Goku with Gotenks coming out stronger.
When was that stated? All we know is that SS Gotenks was supposed to be much stronger than Fat Boo, and stronger than even Goku himself.
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:Depending on if you believe that SSJ Gotenks post rosat got several times stronger in only a week or two is up to you to decide.
It's a gag for me, so he didn't even get 2 times stronger IMO.
You basically just reworded what I said. Both Goku/SSJ Gotenks were stronger than Fat Boo.
Agreed though. SSJ3 Gotenks should be around 10X stronger than SSJ3 Goku.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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by DBZGTKOSDH » Sun Apr 20, 2014 6:41 pm
OWmyDragonBallz wrote:You basically just reworded what I said. Both Goku/SSJ Gotenks were stronger than Fat Boo.
That doesn't place them in the same range. Both base Goku & SS3 Goku are stronger than Kuririn, but they are not in the same league.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.
Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
